Men, Dinos, Trent, Church Fathers

Men, Dinos, Trent, Church Fathers · Continuing with Tom Dorsey · Men, Dinos, C14 and Harry Weatherford · Two other subthreads, here with Creationists

Sandra Balance

Did men and dinosaurs live together?

Skipping

some which is irrelevant for my discussion with Tom Dorsey. Down to his reply and our subthread.

Tom Dorsey

No

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You mean dinos didn't exist?

Tom Dorsey

not at the same time as man, no

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Wait, they were created on day 6 and before the Fall I don't think any kind went extinct in just a few hours ...

Tom Dorsey

not a 6 literal days of creation Christian here, LOL

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Well, if you go with St Augustine and them all being one moment, seen by angels in six successive moments, even less time for dinos to go extinct ...

Tom Dorsey

in the blink of an eye!!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Yeah - but why would they?

I mean, the Fall of Adam was after that "one moment" if it was not six literal days ...

Tom Dorsey

exactly!!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

And Adam was, in that theory, created in that one moment - which would have been contemporary to the dinos.

Tom Dorsey

or not??

how long is a "moment" when there is no dimension of time??

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The most common position in Church Fathers is, Adam was created on day 6.

The other, very uncommon one, is, Adam was created in that one moment.

And obviously a moment means no length at all.

Tom Dorsey

I think you're misreading the fathers. They ask the question, but have no answer.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I think you are misreading them.

None of them would accept millions or billions of years before Adam. None of them would accept physical suffering on God's physical creatures before Adam sinned.

While they do not fix it on either six literal days or one moment, these alternatives have in common sth which they say elsewhere too : Pagans who extend history beyond Biblical chronology are lying (including to themselves).

Tom Dorsey

The Six Days of Creation
Jimmy Akin | January 02, 2003
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-six-days-of-creation

The Catholic Church has no Dogma relating to the "literal 6 days of creation".

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jimmy Akin has a problem. He refers to the non-Catholic "CCC"

"According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, one must "read the Scripture within the living Tradition of the whole Church" (CCC 112)."

No authority.

"This means that when interpreting Scripture one must take account of the interpretations offered by the Church Fathers-the source of the Church's Tradition"

No, Christ is the source of the Tradition, the Church Fathers are successive series of arbiters on it.

But yes, one must take it into account. As per Trent, not as per CCC.

"-and by the magisterium, the shepherd and arbiter of the Church's Tradition."

According to that idea, one could never appeal to Church Fathers against apparent "magisterium".

"The Catholic Church has no Dogma relating to the "literal 6 days of creation"." [my special emphasis]

Yes, the Trentine dogma about exegesis certainly does relate to if not six literal days, at least the alternative between these and one single moment.

New blog on the kid : Grammatica et Logica de Canone Celeberrimo Concilii Tridentini
http://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2014/07/grammatica-et-logica-de-canone.html

Tom Dorsey

Hans-Georg Lundahl sorry, but can you find a Dogma that states "Creation is a literal six days"??

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I did not say I could find that, but that was not your previous proposition. Your previous proposition was none relates to the question, but the Trentine dogma does.

Tom Dorsey

That is NOT a Dogma that exists in the Church Magisterium.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Did you just say this is not a dogma?

Praeterea* ad coercenda petulantia ingenia decernit, ut nemo, suae prudentiae innixus, in rebus fidei et morum ad aedificationem doctrinae Christianae pertinentium, Sacram Scripturam ad suos sensus contorquens, contra eum sensum, quem tenuit et tenet sancta mater Ecclesia, cuius est iudicare de vero sensu et interpretatione Scripturarum Sanctarum, aut etiam contra unanimen consensum Patrum, ipsam Scripturam Sacram interpretari audeat, etiamsi huiusmodi interpretationes nullo umquam tempore in lucem edendae forent. Qui contravenerint, per Ordinarios declarentur, et poenis a iure statutis puniantur.

Tom Dorsey

Hans-Georg Lundahl I don't read Latin??

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Translation:

Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,—in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, —wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,—whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,—hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established.

Tom Dorsey

nor have I ever heard of "Trentine Dogma"??

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You never heard of the Council of Trent? Or you think it was purely pastoral?

This is as much Trentine dogma, as divinity of Christ is Nicene dogma

Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent
The Fourth Session
http://www.bible-researcher.com/trent1.html

Tom Dorsey

Yes, Trent was an Ecumenical Council. But where does Trent say that Creation was and is to be believed to be Literal??

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You just read that all of the Bible needs to be read in the unanimous sentence of the Church Fathers.

Show me one who did NOT believe Creation was literal or who did NOT believe it blasphemous or idiotic to extend time back beyond the years of the timeline in Biblical history after Creation.

Tom Dorsey

The Church has NEVER made a Dogmatic declaration on the Literal Reading of Creation.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The Church has never made a Dogmatic declaration that Christ cured a leper either.

Tom Dorsey

so no such Dogma exists.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

But the Church has made dogmatic declarations having a clear bearing on these question, like the one given by Trent on Church Fathers and exegesis.

Posing millions of years and posing suffering before Adam fell puts you in conflict with ALL Church Fathers.

Tom Dorsey

The Decree at Trent doesn't refer to Genesis.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

It refers to exactly ALL of the Bible, including Genesis.

Tom Dorsey

No, The Church says all of the Bible is to be read as it was meant to be understood....some literal, some metaphorical.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Would you mind referencing that from Trent?

Tom Dorsey

got to go to work, let's chat later brother

Was Vatican II pastoral or Ecumenical?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Would you mind referencing from Church Fathers one who thinks Genesis should be taken metaphorical?

As to work, mine is looking into these things.

Vatican II was invalid.

To be,

most probably, continued, when he gets back from work.