On Young Marriages VS Abortions (initials only)

Ty Barker

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“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” Isaiah 5:20

Chelsea Clinton: Would Be ‘Unchristian’ to Return to Time Before Legal Abortion
by PAM KEY | 13 Sep 2018
https://www.breitbart.com/video/2018/09/13/chelsea-clinton-would-be-unchristian-to-return-to-time-before-legal-abortion/

Skipping

some of the comments. If other participants prefer, initials only version will be replaced by a full names one.

HGL

It was un-Christian at Russian revolution to return to pre-Constantine times of legal abortion on male relative's demand.

EM

"When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit…[saying] ‘As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy'" (Luke 1:41, 44, NIV).

TH

People on the right need to consider whether or not this is a battle worth fighting. Abortion is the only issue that works for Democrats and they will go to war over it. Take that issue out of American politics somehow or other, and the Democrat party will die a natural death within five years.

HGL

Take that issue out of American politics, and you have made Republicans as bad as Democrats.

Ty Barker

It’s a battle worth fighting if we want God to bless America.

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“When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!” Isaiah 1:15

JDM

HGL, why? Is murdering babies acceptable to you?

HGL

JDM - reread what TH said and then reread my response to him in the light of that, and then see whom you should be asking.

Republicans are some of them at present better than Democrats, since against abortion.

Now, if TH takes abortion issue out, these Republicans are no longer better than Democrats.

JDM

HGL sorry, I wasn't able to open all the responses.

HGL

happens!

EM

"Behold, children are a gift of the LORD; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3, NASV).

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20, NKJV).

TH

Granted I would advise people against abortion in something like 95% of all cases; some of those other 5% however are so compelling that you may have one of those goof situations in which the law has to be written for the 5% and not the 95%.

What if Democrats were to get back into the White House with this issue and then take the whole planet down in a nuclear war...

HGL

What are the 5 % of all cases in which you recommend murder?

TH

HGL

Let me give you a concrete example. A business partner of my brothers and his wife had a child die of a genetic disorder at age 6. You can imagine the grief that would entail, nonetheless they still wanted to have a child. A second pregnancy tested positive for the same disorder and was terminated. A third pregnancy tested normal and that child is living a happy life today.

Without the safety net of legal abortion, none of that would've been possible and that child would not exist. Those two people would have simply had themselves sterilized.

JH

TH The problem is, abortion is not a matter for the Federal government to decide. Per the 10th Amendment, it is a matter for the several States. Roe V Wade is Federal overreach, pure and simple.

HGL

"A second pregnancy tested positive for the same disorder and was terminated."

So they spared themselves the anxiety and grief of a child positively dying by making sure it died?

"Those two people would have simply had themselves sterilized."

Sterilisation is also an abhomination, and should also be forbidden.

TH

HGL But you have not answered my question. Could you justify a nuclear war for the sake of the stance against abortion? This isn't hypothetical; if the Hildeabeast had won that election two years ago, the nuclear war would've already happened.

HGL

Wait - Democrats are willing to nuke for abortion?

I missed that.

TH

JH That would be a reasonable solution if you could do it. All I really want is to see the issue taken out of American politics. All I have ever seen it do in my lifetime is get good candidates for public offices defeated by vermin.

JH

TH In other words, you are saying it might be wise to lose this battle to win the war? Win the war, and THEN undo Roe V Wade. It is a strategy to consider, certainly. The thing of it is, the Democrats are funneled MILLIONS of dollars through Planned Parenthood, and Roe V Wade is what makes that possible.

HGL

What if the anti-abortion line were argued in a more coherent way which actually could appeal to people who now call it hypocritical?

JH

HGL How would you argue it in a more coherent way?

TH

HGL Democrats are Malthusians and Greentards. The Democrat party is owned, lock, stock, and barrel by George Soros and bankers who want to see the human population of the earth reduced to medieval levels for the glory of Gaia. The only plausible way to do that would be a nuclear war.

Let's Democrats into the White House one more time, and you will get to see that big old mushroom cloud, up close and personal.

Hiroshima: Dropping The Bomb - Hiroshima - BBC
BBC Studios | 14.III.2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxWNAM8Cso

HGL

Oh, so you meant their adherence to Georgia Guide Stones.

Btw, "medieval levels" may very well be a slur on Middle Ages.

TH

JH Abortion should not be an industry in the United States. It would be completely reasonable to require women seeking abortions to be apprised of all relevant information regarding options. That is, Planned Parenthood should not be the only source of information that people have access to.

HGL

JH - instead of "adoption is the responsible option" I'd say "let teens marry".

I would also NOT give any exceptions to medical abortions, nor to sterilisations on medical grounds.

I would therefore be punishing abortions as one punishes murders, perhaps not same scale of time in prison, but still. And I would obviously be making provisions so teens actually could marry, not just lower the age, like the teens should again be able to quit school when marrying (as before Clinton Bill, as back in 1995). Thereby enabling them to take jobs and provide for children.

TH

HGL I agree with at least part of that. It has to again become both socially and economically possible for people to marry and start families in their late teens. The alternative, as we have seen, is to watch our own birthrates sag beneath replacement levels and then watch Democrats and globalists import voting blocks for themselves from the Third World.

JH

TH Trade schools, instead of at least 4 years of college, would help tremendously with that, along with the revival of industry, which President Trump is giving us.

HGL

"It has to again become both socially and economically possible for people to marry and start families in their late teens."

Why "late"?

"The alternative, as we have seen, is to watch our own birthrates sag beneath replacement levels and then watch Democrats and globalists import voting blocks for themselves from the Third World."

True enough.

"Trade schools,"

What about sending sons at age 7 for apprenticeship, not school?

JH

HGL Apprenticeship? Fine. Whatever. The point is that college for everyone is a way of prolonging adolescence and delaying marriage and maturity. As well as brainwashing young people with neo Marxist garbage, of course. What we are seeing now is tidal wave of immature people who've never grown up because they haven't had to, thinking as children think and speaking as children speak.

HGL

I'd not even agree on the maturity issue.

Give one of them a marriage and a baby, she'll mature.

JH

HGL It's not only young woman who are immature 🤣, not to mention, in case you haven't noticed, women also have to be able to support themselves, so women need apprenticeship and job-training, too, as well as men.

HGL

The woman could be supported by a husband and he could be older.

JH

HGL And what happens if he dies or becomes unable to work due to injury or illness? What happens to the wife and the children? And what happens to women who don't marry very young? Are they supposed to live with their parents until the do, as if they are children? And if they live with their parents until them marry, even if it's later, doesn't that, by definition, make them immature? You know, sometimes women don't marry simply because they never meet the right man. What are they supposed to do? This is the 21st century, and women have to be able to support themselves and their children if something happens to their husband. Which means that women have to be able to have good-paying jobs. Otherwise, they become dependent on the government, which is NOT a good thing.

HGL

Well, what about doing the right thing by marrying and then trusting God's providence?

For many mothers, the problem is, the government does not allow this.

The idea that women HAVE to have a job before getting children is part of what depopulates the West. It is way worse in Sweden and France than in US.

"You know, sometimes women don't marry simply because they never meet the right man."

If you are pregnant, if the father is not married to someone else or a celibate monk or priest and if he's of same or compatible faith or belief system with you, I think you have a fairly good clue as who the right person is, in such a situation.

ALSO, college and university actually often involves (at least in Sweden) some kind of study subsidy, which provides for mothers who are studying.

JH

HGL "If you are pregnant, if the father is not married to someone else or a celibate monk or priest and if he's of same or compatible faith or belief system with you, I think you have a fairly good clue as who the right person is, in such a situation." Oh, then you're advocating for the very immature action of getting pregnant out of wedlock? "ALSO, college and university actually often involves (at least in Sweden) some kind of study subsidy, which provides for mothers who are studying." So, you want women to be dependent on government, thereby obviating the need for her to have a husband? So, you are actually giving me reasons why women SHOULD NOT marry while simultaneously arguing FOR marriage at a very young age. In other words, you cannot support your argument that women should marry young with reasons why they should not marry at all. In other words, sir, your position is untenable.

HGL

"Oh, then you're advocating for the very immature action of getting pregnant out of wedlock?"

I am not advocating it.

I am saying how one should deal with it.

"So, you want women to be dependent on government, thereby obviating the need for her to have a husband?"

No, I am giving advice on how to deal with absence of one.

Your interpretation is faulty.

JH

HGL Then explain to me further what you mean, so that I may understand.

HGL How is a woman to deal with the absence of a husband if she is unqualified for a good-paying job?

HGL The fact of the matter is, in today's world, whether she marries young or doesn't marry at all, whether she has children or not, whether her husband is young or older, or even if she lives with her parents for her whole life, a woman needs to be able to support herself, which means that one way or another, she needs to qualify for a good-paying job. For some people that will require college. For others, trade school is the way to go. Unless you believe that the best life for a woman is to be somebody's ward for her whole life, whether she is the ward of her husband or her son or her brother or her parents or her government?, which makes her, by definition, immature. Which starts to sound a whole lot like a certain Middle Eastern religion, if you catch my drift.

HGL

Let me put it like this : Christianity is as such a Middle Eastern religion too.

God has not said "women must support themselves" or "women must not depend on husbands".

God has said, through St Paul, that in certain circumstances you should marry. His description of the case is NOT such that teens seem excluded. At all.

For my part, I have not said any woman should be forced to marry.

The Catholic Church does not consider a really and truly forced marriage as a valid one.

I have said, against the most modern idiocies on the market, she should be allowed to do so.

From her 12th birthday.

Now, let me be precise on what you sound like.

You sound as if a teen unwed person is pregnant, instead of marrying, she should be punished for her "immaturity".

Lots of good that will do to her child, right (sarcasm, if you didn't catch it).

On to some probable consequences : you do not want her to be effectively the mother of her child. You NEITHER want her to marry, NOR to support her child on some dole for pregnant and and young mother students.

This would leave her the choice EITHER murder OR be a surrogate mother for someone else, older and richer than herself.

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” Isaiah 5:20

I think, if you don't repent, you will go to Hell with the Swedish feminists.

JH

"You sound as if a teen unwed person is pregnant, instead of marrying, she should be punished for her "immaturity"." I said no such thing, nor did I even imply it, and you could not be more wrong about what I think or what I believe if you tried. What I think is that teens should be able to marry, but that they should wait to have children until after marriage, and they both should have a good education of some kind under their belts, because being uneducated and pregnant, for boys and girls, is a sure-fire way to remain poor their whole life long and confer a bad start on the children. Also, I do not believe in abortion, and if a teen-age girl becomes pregnant, or a teen-age couple (teen girl and teen boy) falls pregnant, they should marry and raise the child. But that doesn't address what would happen to her if her husband (whatever his age) died or became ill and unable to support her and their children. The sensible thing would be for women, including teen-age girls, to marry but also be able to support themselves and their children so that the children are well-provided for, no matter what happens to either parent. p.s. I did not assume that you think women ought to be forced to marry. I didn't even imply that.

HGL

"I said no such thing,"

Hence "you sound as if".

"nor did I even imply it"

Hope I misunderstood.

"What I think is that teens should be able to marry, but that they should wait to have children until after marriage,"

That's the normal procedure, at least.

Part of reversing it is sinful but second part of its reversal is making up for sin.

"and they both should have a good education of some kind under their belts,"

It's an asset. It is also a dispensable one.

"because being uneducated and pregnant, for boys and girls, is a sure-fire way to remain poor their whole life long"

Most people do.

Renouncing a thing which could otherwise make you happy, but which is likely to keep you poor, that is not a guarantee of not remaining poor. Hence, no real need to renouncing it.

"and confer a bad start on the children"

Adam conferred a bad start on all of us. Rich and poor. That is why unwed pregnancies happen and are understandable.

"Also, I do not believe in abortion,"

Thank you very much!

"and if a teen-age girl becomes pregnant, or a teen-age couple (teen girl and teen boy) falls pregnant, they should marry and raise the child."

Thank God! This is precisely what I had misunderstood.

"But that doesn't address what would happen to her if her husband (whatever his age) died or became ill and unable to support her and their children."

Indeed - I gave one option or two. Not pretending they are ideal nor that they are exhaustive.

"I did not assume that you think women ought to be forced to marry. I didn't even imply that."

Sorry for misunderstanding.

I've been under lots of heat from feminists ...

Seems my idea of your going to Hell with Swedish feminists unless you repent was a wee bit exaggerated.

JH

HGLFeminists are delusional and hate themselves as women, which is certainly not your fault.

HGL

Taking you for one at least partly was.