With Real Protestants - Bryan Sager I

With Real Protestants - Bryan Sager Intro · With Real Protestants - Bryan Sager I · With Real Protestants - Bryan Sager II and Dariusz Kulikowski

Bryan Sager

Should we pray to the dead?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life."
[John 5:24]

"Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:"
[John 11:25]

"Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do."
[John 14:12]

When it says "God is not a God of the dead", take that as He is not the god of those who go to the Hell of the damned.

Bryan Sager

In your own words can you define what praying to the dead means to you?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If you mean to the "dead" in a Biblical sense of "dead" it would mean praying to the damned.

I just indicated that according to three passages in St John, the words of Christ Himself, not everyone deceased qualifies as "dead" in this sense.

Bryan Sager

I mean, how do you pray to the dead and what is the purpose of praying to the dead? I'm asking you to define your claim using your own words then we can bring forth the evidence that you say supports your claim.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Oh, you mean how I pray to the deceased I consider already in Heaven?

• 1) I honour them;
• 2) I ask for their prayers;
• 3) I hope they will pray for me.

You wanted evidence?

In the creed, there is "sanctorum communionem" as a definition of unam sanctam ecclesiam catholicam, and it implies a communion between the saints on earth, in purgatory and in heaven.

In Apocalypse I see martyrs in heaven praying.

Apocalypse 6:[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Bryan Sager

a

How does the bible define praying to the dead?

b

Anything you use for evidence outside of the Bible has to cohere with the teaching of the Bible where it cannot be accepted as evidence.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

a

Does it?

b

I am content with the definition of the Church, e g in Trent.

As to your criterium, it sounds like "sola scriptura" which is a heresy condemned at Trent.

How does the Bible define obeying the Church?

I Timothy 3:[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

So, for me it should be fine enough to show the definition of Trent does not contradict anything in the Bible.

Would you mind coming forth with accusations, if you think there are any?

Bryan Sager

The burden of proof is on you, you're the one making the claim. i didn't ask for a definition of the church. I'm asking for your evidence to back your claim.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am sorry, but you came with the challenge [see OP above], equivalent to a claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

You did not ask for a definition of the Church, because you are not a Christian. I do ask for such definitions, since I am.

Bryan Sager

Ok, if you're not going to bring forth your evidence then its over. Thats not how a debate works. You are saying that a certain action should take place regarding certain scripture to back your action. That doesn't leave me with the burden of proof. I never made that claim, my claim doesnt cause a action.

you opened with your claim [!], a opening is always a claim followed with evidence backed by effect.

Of course, if you're only here to argue that would be a different thing but since you keep sharing these on your personal blog I figured we would use the typical outline for a debate.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"you opened with your claim,"

You opened with "Should we pray to the dead?"

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If you refer to my words previous, I was actually giving a previous debate. Where I had already given the proof.

Bryan Sager

Either you can define your claim with evidence or retract your claim. I don't get whats so hard for you to understand about debating? This is a sign of lack of understanding of the layout of debating. Im not going to set here and debate with you about debating, either you're going to back your claim or this arguement is over.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I have debated for 17 years on internet - never once in a formal one where I was supposed to make the equivalent of Kent Hovind's or the other guys 15 minute opening statement.

You pretend I have given no evidence?

I have, but you are dishonest about that.

The opening of this line is about whether you appropriately can classify deceased believers as "dead" in the relevant sense.

3 verba dominica saying "no".

And, you know what?

Bryan Sager has not answered this ...

II

a

Tom Dorsey

YES!! The word "pray" can and does also mean "ask/request".

Hans-Georg Lundahl

AND we cannot refer to as dead those who live in Christ or who walk with the lamb whithersoever he goeth.

b

Nwadinigwe Michael

If you mean to the saints, those who have died and are in Heaven, I will say Yes.

Not all death are in Heaven, dose in hell can hear your prayers but can not ask God to answer you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

In order to hear our prayers, any soul needs to have this revealed from God. The saints do get such a revelation.

III

Irene Tinsley

We shouldn't be praying to anyone but God.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

We should not ADORE anyone but God.

We should not worship WITH LATREIA anyone but God.

Maja Hill

We pray to God alone, if we are true to what is in the Bible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Would you mind telling me where asking saints for their intercession is forbidden in the Bible?

IV

Suzy Minck

Jesus set the example in the Lord’s Prayer, only to his Father. At Ecc. 9:5,6 & 10, we learn the dead know nothing. So why pray to the dead?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Now, ... Eccl 9: [5] For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten. [6] Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun. ... [10] Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening.

• 1) "hell" means Sheol, not necessarily the Hell of the damned - but in Heaven things may be different from the bosom of Abraham in Sheol;
• 2) it may refer to Purgatory, since we agree in Purgatory we have no more occasion to merit;
• 3) Verse 6 clearly limits verse 5 to refer to earthly affairs, but praying for the brethren is an eternal one;
• 4) even in this respect, verse 5 would perhaps preclude, except bishop Challoner has a solution:
  
  [5] "Know nothing more": Viz., as to the transactions of this world, in which they have now no part, unless it be revealed to them; neither have they any knowledge or power now of doing any thing to secure their eternal state, (if they have not taken care of it in their lifetime:) nor can they now procure themselves any good, as the living always may do, by the grace of God.

In other words, no proof text against praying to the dead.

Now look at Luke 16.

Suzy Minck

Hans-Georg Lundahl Sheol is the original word, grave, where man goes when we die. The dead know nothing.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

That changed when Chrust

That changed when Christ went down there.

V

Bryn Hagan

Nope. The bible even tells us not to try to communicate with them - yet there was one king (can't remember which one) that did.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You misrecall the exact words of the command as well as not recalling Saul.

Now, the command in question Deuteronomy 18: [9] When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God shall give thee, beware lest thou have a mind to imitate the abominations of those nations. [10] Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire: or that consulteth soothsayers, or observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard,

[11] Nor charmer, nor any one that consulteth pythonic spirits, or fortune tellers, or that seeketh the truth from the dead. [12] For the Lord abhorreth all these things, and for these abominations he will destroy them at thy coming.

So, it's about seances.

Saul was condemned for going to a witch for a seance with Samuel.

Bryan Sager

Hans, nothing you posted here constitutes praying to the dead, they can't hear you.

God is omnipresent not us.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

God can definitely reveal a prayer to each saint He wants to intercede for us and thereby be glorified by miracles.

ALSO, you do not know the outline of a debate, if you imagine I am everywhere and anywhere only trying the exact one thing of proving the exact one point you thought I should prove.

I was here answering an objection from Deut. 18 and from Witch of Endor episode.

Why did you not bring that up under the subthread where you were asking me for proof instead? [see I]

Bryan Sager

Hans, you defined your opinion but you never brought your evidence. I proper rebuttal takes evidence to refute.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Actually, you are here trying to refute a claim I had made already there.

In fact, you bail out of the one to one with me and disrupt my one to one with more than one of the others.

Bryan Sager

Hans, I think you fail to realize that this is "my" OP.

If you think I "bailed" you're sadly mistaken, Im not going to waste my time with someone that doesn't understand the format of debating. I made a OP, I tagged you in it, you made a claim, you gave me no evidence to refute. What do you not understand about that?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Where exactly someone got the idea (except possibly yourself) that you understand debating.

You used a key term, my initial answer was refuting the appropriateness of that key term, and you have still given nothing in response to that initial answer.

Bryan Sager

Hans, you should look this stuff up, you can find simple 5 min video on youtube to explain this to you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am sorry, but you need very much more than 5 min youtube videos to understand debating, if ever you do.

Fairness is a key term on debating I haven't heard from you so far.

Bryan Sager

The outline of debating is still the same, why would I be fair if the other person isnt willing to follow the proper outline? No outline no debate, its only a argument then.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fairness means you don't twist what the other guy does about the outline of debating. You twist all the time, snake.

Bryan Sager

Hans, proper outline of a debate never changes, fairness is staying on course of proper outline. without the proper outline it is just a arguement. Im done teaching you about debating. take care

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I never asked you to teach me about debating in the first place, and I don't know why you repeat "take care" from your words on Kulakowski's subthread, is it some kind of threat?

That subthread on another OP was partly in temporal tandem to this one. Hence, while it comes after here, some parts of it come before parts of this one.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[notified of debate being mirrored]

Bryan Sager

I'm glad you're making a great name for me lol I love the free advertisement

Do you want a picture to go on there with it?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Why not?

But as to making a great name for you, I think you might want to spread my blog a bit for that.