With Real Protestants - Bryan Sager II and Dariusz Kulikowski

With Real Protestants - Bryan Sager Intro · With Real Protestants - Bryan Sager I · With Real Protestants - Bryan Sager II and Dariusz Kulikowski

Bryan Sager

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Descendit ad inferos means, he descended to Sheol, not to the Hell of the damned.

He went where Abraham was waiting for him, and the good thief was there too, and Paradise was there. Hodie eris mecum in paradiso.

He did not go to where the rich probably Pharisee had gone.

Dariusz Kulakowski

Hodie eris mecum in paradiso. what language is this?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Latin.

I find it a language in which it is easy to recall phrases, and I am a Roman Catholic.

Dariusz Kulakowski

Translation of scripture is not valid as it doesn't produce original meaning. Bible says abut different spirits: "who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah" So it wasn't Abraham, so your assertion is wrong!

You are bringing Hans similar manipulation as her!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I was not referring to that part of Peter's epistle.

I was referring to the Catholic catechism.

As to the part you cited, those souls had already passed through Purgatory or were released when He came down, so, they were in Abraham's bosom - where He had told the good thief they would be together.

Dariusz Kulakowski

Bible doesn't say that and for us Bible is authoritarian not catechizm. Bible doesn't mention false doctrine of aditional cleansing to perfect sacrifice of Christ Jesus!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, what does YOUR Bible say for [Luke 23:43]?

Mine in English says "And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

This means, Jesus was in paradise in Sheol - a k a Abraham's bosom.

When I look up your quote, I see a comment by Challoner:

[19] "Spirits that were in prison": See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach, after his death, were not in heaven; nor yet in the hell of the damned: because heaven is no prison: and Christ did not go to preach to the damned.

Purgatory.

Dariusz Kulakowski

What for he would proclaimed there?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

So they could get some catechesis before getting on to Heaven.

Dariusz Kulakowski

It is very interesting that Jesus had to go to Purgatory to be cleansed!😂

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No, he went to Purgatory to do some quick cleansing of souls who had been detained there.

It is interesting you have to twist my point to answer it.

Dariusz Kulakowski

No, it was just fun, how far you have to go to bring false doctrine that Jesus's sacrifice is not sufficient for salvation.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I have never said that His sacrifice was not sufficient for salvation on God's side.

On man's side, it needs to be accepted, before you die, either in hope as with the fathers, or in belief of it already having been made.

AND among those saved, some get to Heaven directly (or got directly to bosom of Abraham), and some go to Purgatory first.

Dariusz Kulakowski

If you believe in purgatory then Jesus's sacrifice is not enough!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I don't know where you get that from.

Dariusz Kulakowski

If aditional cleansing is required then Jesus did a bad job dying for our sins!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No, there is the cleansing from the guilt, needed at justification by baptism, and at each subsequent justification by absolution, and THEN, in the Christian life on earth, there is the cleansing from remaining penalties.

THAT part can go on in Purgatory.

Bryan Sager

Hans, where is your proof?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Bryan Sager - right now I am not PROVING, I am correcting misunderstandings.

Bryan Sager

Hans, you're claiming. Evidence produces truth, claims produce opinions.

Dariusz Kulakowski

But where Bible suggests that What Jesus done on the cross was not enough?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Bryan Sager - if you read whom I was arguing with, namely Dariusz Kulakowski, you would know I have to EXPLAIN WHAT I believe before I can give EVIDENCE WHY I believe it.

Dariusz Kulakowski, you did it agains, pretended that Catholics do not consider the act of Christ sufficient to save us.

Bryan Sager

Hans, the Bible says Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for us, God declares us righteous by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, the Bible also says those that deny him go to eternal tourment, not purgatory.

1 John 2:2 ESV
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:25 ESV
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
propitiation, sin offering
Atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator -- propitiation.

1 Peter 3:18 ESV
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Hebrews 10:10 ESV
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Philippians 3:9 ESV
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-

Romans 5:9 ESV
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Hell

The Bible is clear stating that they will be locked out.

Rev 22:14-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. [15] Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

The wages of our sin is death Rom 6:23, we don't deserve life, our sin is a direct offense against God, Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgement; - Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.

Hell is eternal fire

Matt 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matt 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mark 9:45,47-49 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. [47] And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, [48] 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' [49] For everyone will be salted with fire.

Rev 14:10-11 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Your interpretation is contradictory to scripture. Move along now.

Dariusz Kulakowski

Hans-Georg Lundahl no I know that Catholics don't see sucrifice of Christ. All the system of new priesthood was introduced to bring help to Jesus's sacrifice as well

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Dariusz Kulakowski, do you think EVERY man, believer and non-believer is automatically saved bc of Christ's sacrifice?

Or do you think we have to do SOMETHING?

Bryan Sager "the Bible says Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for us"

Correct.

Never disputed that.

"God declares us righteous by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross,"

Which one of your quotes was declarative only atonement?

I missed that one, if there was one.

"the Bible also says those that deny him go to eternal tourment, not purgatory."

Catholics agree.

Now, purgatory is not for unbelievers or others dying in mortal sin.

Purgatory is for those who die with not all the cleansing from remaining affections for sin as yet done.

The cleansing is done by the sacrifice of Christ, but not by pure juridical declaration on God's part, and therefore it is not over in an instant. This means it can have for some to go on after death, QED.

Dariusz Kulakowski

Can you quote scripture for the last one?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Dariusz Kulakowski how do you like this one?

I Cor 3:[11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Here is the comment of Bishop Challoner:

[12] "Upon this foundation": The foundation is Christ and his doctrine: or the true faith in him, working through charity. The building upon this foundation gold, silver, and precious stones, signifies the more perfect preaching and practice of the gospel; the wood, hay, and stubble, such preaching as that of the Corinthian teachers (who affected the pomp of words and human eloquence) and such practice as is mixed with much imperfection, and many lesser sins. Now the day of the Lord, and his fiery trial, (in the particular judgment immediately after death,) shall make manifest of what sort every man's work has been: of which, during this life, it is hard to make a judgment. For then the fire of God's judgment shall try every man's work. And they, whose works, like wood, hay, and stubble, cannot abide the fire, shall suffer loss; these works being found to be of no value; yet they themselves, having built upon the right foundation, (by living and dying in the true faith and in the state of grace, though with some imperfection,) shall be saved yet so as by fire; being liable to this punishment, by reason of the wood, hay, and stubble, which was mixed with their building.

Bryan Sager

Hans, what does it mean to be justified before God?

Romans 5:1 ESV
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I see you continue to make claims without any supporting evidence.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Bryan Sager I note that Paul did not there say "by faith alone".

Also peace with God does not mean no more sufferings in this life, therefore, it also does not mean automatically Heaven direct once you die.

The one making claims without evidence duly supporting them is you.

Bryan Sager

That's the establishment and very foundation of the church and it's teaching which totally denotes the Catholic denomination as being the church, it's not a building but that's neither here nor there but completely off topic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Bryan Sager what are you talking about?

The pronoun "that" beginning your sentence refers to what?

Dariusz Kulakowski

Very poor! It says not about man, but man's work!

Bryan Sager

Hans, we are talking about justification, not hardships of this life. I'm still waiting on supporting evidence to back your claim about Jesus not justifying us before God?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No, Bryan Sager, Purgatory means justification is already dealt with.

Bryan Sager

Hans, "that's" referring to you jumping off topic and talking about the corner Stone of the church, that has nothing to do with justification.

Hans, if we are justified before God, we are declared righteous, therefore we go to heaven, not purgatory.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

" I'm still waiting on supporting evidence to back your claim about Jesus not justifying us before God?"

I am sorry, go on waiting till you are a skeleton, I never claimed that. And I have definitely no duty to support any claim I didn't make.

Now, the passage refers to being saved (that is one is justified when one is dead, before one is dead), but as by fire (that means purgatory).

"if we are justified before God, we are declared righteous,"

You have still no Bible verse for declarative only justification.

"therefore we go to heaven,"

Ultimately, yes.

"not purgatory."

NOt even, as we say, before heaven?

Doesn't follow.

Saved, but as by fire.

Bryan Sager

Romans 3:21-26 ESV
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it- [22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

"Now, the passage refers to being saved (that is one is justified when one is dead, before one is dead), but as by fire (that means purgatory)."

What does being saved mean to you?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Being saved means ultimately getting to Heaven.

Which those who are in Purgatory do, all of them.

No, Romans 3 quote does speak of God blotting out former injustice, but not of God not requiring holiness for the future.

Hence, not a valid proof text for "declarative only" justification.

Bryan Sager

Romans 5:18-19 ESV
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Hans, you have got to do better then this, I need scripture from you, it's pointless to hear your opinion so much and hardly see you use scripture to back your

[underlined in Bible "matches" an underlined in his statement below - by contradiction, not agreement]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Bryan Sager, did Romans 5 say one becomes righteous in such a way as to have no need to strive for holiness?

No. Therefore, it has nothing to say against a purgatory between death and heaven, for those who die saved, but not holy enough.

Dariusz Kulakowski

You have already brought verse which doesnt says that we will be purified by fire but our works!

Bryan Sager

Hans, we don't "become" righteous we are "declared" righteous. Righteousness does not get you to heaven, Jesus does!

[underlined in his statement here "matches" an underlined in the Bible above - by contradiction, not agreement]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

And why, Bryan Sager, would I waste Scripture on one who so blatantly abuses the one he quotes himself?

I never said I would abide by Bible only, since I have also the Church's tradition from the Apostles.

However, you claim to have Bible only for this: " Hans, we don't "become" righteous we are "declared" righteous. Righteousness does not get you to heaven, Jesus does!"

Where in the Bible is that? And I mean directly, since you are abusively treating the Bible as a Catechism for beginners and a simple manual.

Dariusz Kulakowski - look again.

If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

So, the man's work is affected by fire (if any man's work burn), but also he for some time (he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire).

Bryan Sager

Hans, take care, I'm not interested in your opinion, your opinion or claims don't refute what scripture says. You have yet to provide a single verse to back your claim about purgatory. The Bible speaks clearly about this, anything else you bring in from another source would have to cohere to what the Bible says or it would be contradictory.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Bryan Sager what you are interested in is not really my biggest concern.

You have shown yourself a buffoon in debate, but a good tactician, interrupting our one to one and disrupting mine with Dariusz Kulakowski as you were also disrupting another one.

Bryan Sager

Hans, I suggest you go study how to debate properly.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I have done that for 17 years on the internet, and I studied C. S. L. well before that. A better preparation than you seem to have.

Bryan Sager

preparation? didn't know I had to prep for simple topics, I do this from memory lol

Dariusz Kulakowski

It still says that by fire refering to his works; tested by fire. So all this passage refers to our endeavour on earth not why we would be saved.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Dariusz Kulakowski - learn to read the whole sentence, not just the first words.

Bryan Sager I spoke about preparation for honest debating, something you are constantly ill prepared for.

Dariusz Kulakowski

This what the passage says!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Dariusz Kulakowski re-read the last words.

Bryan Sager

Hans, being ill prepared for something means being not ready, not having evidence, not providing evidence, not backing your claim. I can see what im up against, I like to debate people with some type of common knowledge of terms and phares they use to try and refute someone with. Take care, you should probaly see if you can get some advice from a dead saint or two. 🤣🤣😉

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"I like to debate people with some type of common knowledge of terms"

Oh, you mean, you like debating Protestants?

Quoting your earlier debate: "It's actually pointless to argue with Catholics."

"Take care, you should probaly see if you can get some advice from a dead saint or two."

I think I remembered one from St Francis of Sales, the Great Bishop of Geneva. Oh, btw, transmission from when he was alive in writing, not by seance, in case you would like to twist that.

Dariusz Kulakowski

Hans-Georg Lundahl The last words of this passage refer to all paragraf and say not by fire, but as by fire, and they refer to all texts saying that our WORKS would be tested, that it!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, as by fire implies purgatory may not involve physical fire, but not that it isn't painful.