Excerpts from New Debate on Mariology

Is Exodus 20:4 "second commandment"? · Excerpts from New Debate on Mariology · Church History, History of Schools too, Not forgetting Latin and Vernaculars

I

IP

Matthew 12:46-50 King James Version (KJV)

"46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

HGL

a male christian - brother
a female christian - sister
why add mother?

Bc His Mother was doing the will of the Father.

IP

HGL He did not 'add' his mother. ' one said unto him, Behold, thy mother' one said it, he just responded, any woman who does the will of his father is his mother.

HGL

No, any woman who does the will of the Father is His sister.

ONE woman who does the will of the Father is His mother.

IP

okay

She was full of grace.

HGL

Indeed, and from the start.

IP

But we are not to worship her, pray to her etc?

HGL

We are to praise Her blessed.

"henceforth all generations shall bless/call me blessed"

Catholic Bible has "call", while "praise" is from memory of Swedish Lutheran Bible from 1917.

Luke 1:48.

IP

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

Still looking for the scripture where it says we should pray to Mary or Worship any one but the Father, but if you know?

HGL

You just quoted this:

from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Which is what we do when praying Hail Mary.

IP

I call her blessed. Blessed. What is the original Aramaic and what does it mean? Surely she was blessed to be chosen as the mother of Christ, but worship her? That disobeys the ten commandments, Jesus taught us to pray 'Our Father' and never My Mother.

HGL

When we pray Hail Mary, we also adore no strange gods, we use the words of the angel, of Elisabeth, add the name Jesus to be porecise of who is the fruit of her womb, and then ask for her intercession. Bible, bible, common knowledge, licit demand for intercession.

IP

The Bible also says "blessed are the meek", should we now go and pray and worship the Meek?? No, surely not.

AT

[longer post dealt with later, under III]

HGL

IP "The Bible also says "blessed are the meek", should we now go and pray and worship the Meek?? No, surely not."

We ask for the intercession of some meek as well, like "Holy Francis of Assisi, pray for us".

II

AT

Luke 11: 27-28

"As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.""

HGL

Which the Blessed Virgin had also done.

Christ knew what compliment His Mother liked best!

AT

I think Jesus's words are clear. He rebuked the old pagan tradition of mother goddess worship which was already prominent since Babylon (Semiramis and Nimrod), Egypt (Isis and Horus) etc.

HGL

Since no even trace of mother goddess worship was hinted at in Luke 11, I don't see why you would think that.

Btw, your mentioning Semiramis and Nimrod sounds as if you were taking classes in religious history from Hislop - don't.

AT

I am asuming from what we can see today in RCC - the same Babylonian mother-child worship. And of course Jesus knew this would happen. Therefor He rebuked the women.

Notice that He didnt say "Yes, do as my Holy Blessed Virgin Mother is doing and you shall be blessed" but He rebuked this idea as He did also in Matthew 12:46-50.

Sry to break your bubble, you re just trying to twist clear scripture.

HGL

"I am asuming from what we can see today in RCC - the same Babylonian mother-child worship."

How do you know it's the same? Hislop?

"And of course Jesus knew this would happen."

Supposing it were even true.

"Notice that He didnt say "Yes, do as my Holy Blessed Virgin Mother is doing and you shall be blessed""

Well, since She was stepmother to His stepsiblings, some of whom where his enemies, it would have been dangerous for her.

"Sry to break your bubble, you re just trying to twist clear scripture."

Clear enough for the passage (along with one more in Luke 12) to be staple at any Orthodox Feast of the Blessed Virgin.

Note

If the Blessed Virgin had been able to rely on Her stepsons (sons of St Joseph's previous marriage) respecting Our Lord, He would not have needed to give Her another son, as He did on Calvary. Only one of them, St James the Brother of God, was on friendly terms, and when the others repented, or some of them, they were known only as "Brothers of James".

AT

Well we can trace all the idols and imigary of RCC back to Rome, Greek, Egypt and Babylon... with Mary or withput her it is clear that Rome is Babylon the Great.

HGL

"We can trace" = Hislop, right?

In other words, a very bad and biassed detective, hating Catholicism before going on his hatchet job.

AT

HGL

I rather do my own research then blindly defending an ideology that contradicts the Bible.

Why do you think the RCC changed the 10 commandments? And why do you think the RCC didnt translate the Bible into common languages, why did the protestants had to translate it? And why did the RCC persecute them for that?

I guess you would still prefer we didnt have the Bible like your Roman leaders would? Too bad, your cult has been exposed.

HGL

"I rather do my own research then blindly defending an ideology that contradicts the Bible."

Where do you find a contradiction?

"Why do you think the RCC changed the 10 commandments?"

I suppose you mean the issue of your counting Exodus 20:4 as beginning II commandment rather than as continuing I.

Dealt with in sufficient depth here:

HGL's F.B. writings : Is Exodus 20:4 "second commandment"?
https://hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2018/11/is-exodus-204-second-commandment.html

"And why do you think the RCC didnt translate the Bible into common languages,"

When?

Up to fairly recently, what you consider "common languages" didn't exist and Latin was the most common language in the West for long AND to other languages the Catholic Church did translate at least portions of the Bible.

"why did the protestants had to translate it?"

Because someone gave you the wrong history.

"And why did the RCC persecute them for that?"

Tyndale was known by Belgian Inquisitors to have done so, and it too James Latomus seven years to convict him and exchanges include debates (written in style) over Romans 3.

"I guess you would still prefer we didnt have the Bible like your Roman leaders would?"

Why would they? Who says they would? Because someone gave you the wrong history?

"Too bad, your cult has been exposed."

Right now by exposing these debates, I am exposing the bad argumentation of your cult.

AT

HGL

"Because someone gave you the wrong history?"

I live in a strick Catholic country but our language was developed by protestants. Our country wouldnt even exist if the protestants wouldnt start using our own language.

I know our history very well and in fact it was similar in other protestant countries also. Rome tried hard to keep the people dumb, they still do.

Without protestantism we would still live in the dark ages.

HGL

"I live in a strick Catholic country but our language was developed by protestants. Our country wouldnt even exist if the protestants wouldnt start using our own language."

I very much doubt that. Which country is it, btw?

"I know our history very well and in fact it was similar in other protestant countries also."

As a Swede, I can testify to the contrary.

"Rome tried hard to keep the people dumb, they still do."

Not even true. Protestant reformation in Sweden set back education for about a century till Queen Christina managed to catch up with pre-Reformation education. And she converted and abdicated to do so.

"Withouth protestantism we would still live in the dark ages."

With the word "dark ages" you show you have no real in depth knowledge of history, but rely on half truths and sometimes lies.

Sry, someone told you the wrong history, even if it were history teachers in your own country. Happens with Commies (as your country no doubt were to 1990).

Note

Primož Trubar, Adam Bohorič and Jurij Dalmatin indeed did vast services to Slovenian language, and it is possible that without these, the country would have been a part of Croatia instead.

Possible, not certain.

My "Dark Ages" refutation as bad Commie history still stands, though.

GF

HGL he never called her his mother only woman.

HGL

Yes, thank you, even three times.

Identifying the person who God was promising in Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

III

since AT interrupted an orderly thread number I with a long Gish Gallup, much to deal with at once, I'll give this under a separate more chaotic one:

AT

Are we to see Mary as "the gate" also? :)

Here is what the Catholic tradition teaches - the "gate" is Mary:

CHAPTER ONE
DEVOTION TO OUR LADY IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary18a.htm
Here is what the Bible teaches - the gate is JESUS:

John 14:6
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 10:9
"9 I am the DOOR: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

John 10:10
"10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth NOT BY THE DOOR into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way (Roman Mary, Isis, Kali, Krishna, Alah, Sophia etc - these are all female goddesses which represent Satan!), the same is a THIEF and a ROBBER."

This is heresy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXu-io7QSI&t=2085

-------------------------------------------------

7 steps to deity :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXu-io7QSI&t=352

This is clear worship:

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen."

HGL

IP "The Bible also says "blessed are the meek", should we now go and pray and worship the Meek?? No, surely not."

We ask for the intercession of some meek as well, like "Holy Francis of Assisi, pray for us".

IP

So, anyone who sneaks in without going through the Gate is a a THIEF and a ROBBER? It's what the Bible says.

Do you know what Meek and Blessed mean?

HGL

AT why do you misquote?

[he didn't, see below, my bad]

Mary is the key to the gates of Heaven.
St. Ephrem

Open to us, O Mary, the gate of Paradise, since you have its keys!
St. Ambrose

Says clearly Jesus is the gate.

AT

HGL

Can you give me some examples of praying to the dead from the Bible? Just curious.

HGL

That is only 1 quote you provided. I gave many more.

HGL

Yes, I know you like to Gish Gallup.

I give long answers when dealing with sth in detail or when responding to sth long (not always). You give a long list of supposed examples which you copy paste and I cannot deal with very rapidly.

Yes, the Rich man tried to, and the problem wasn't Lazarus or Abraham being dead, but Rich man being and his brothers going to be damned.

IP Are you impressed by his misquotes?

As to Hail Holy Queen being "clear worship", well, not of adoration.

IP

John 10:7 Jesus says this:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber/I]. 2 But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you,** I am the door** of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and [a]have it abundantly. "

Why is Mary called "gate of heaven" when Jesus says in John 10:7 that He is the sheepgate?
https://forums.catholic.com/t/why-is-mary-called-gate-of-heaven-when-jesus-says-in-john-10-7-that-he-is-the-sheepgate/326761

HGL

Btw, admitting, there is a gate of heaven in the quote.

Mary is called "The Gate of Heaven" because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

Now, this means I'll go to the forum to find the answer:

We can only get to the Father by going through the Son (hence Jesus is the gate), but Jesus only came to Earth to be able to deliver us by coming through Mary. Hence, she could be called the “gate of heaven”.

Just after initial post.

My bad ... yes, Mary and Jesus both crush the serpent's head, they are also both gate to heaven.

IP

Mary is on a par with the brothers and sisters, she is not to be elevated as some kind of god because that is basic idolatry and is forbidden. she is as blessed and the meek, no more

HGL

Well, since the ones in heaven cannot take on pride, this allows us to honour both her and other saints already departed.

On par with doesn't follow from the word mother being singled.

IP

Cannot find Mary in this list

What Does the Bible Say About Heavens Gate?
https://www.openbible.info/topics/heavens_gate

HGL

Can you find anything in the Bible saying it gives exhaustive lists on all topics?

IP

Nor here. Mary is therefore Not the Gate of Heaven in the Bible

What Does the Bible Say About Gates Of Heaven?
https://www.openbible.info/topics/gates_of_heaven

HGL

Perhaps not "in the Bible, what about logically from?

The first quote on your first list is by St Bonaventura applied to Mary.

Note

It may be the St Bonaventura attribution was for previous quote, so the Genesis quote is actually applied in context by author of compilation.

IP

Well. I am yet to be convinced that anyone should pray to anything less than the Father in heaven. Thanks for trying. :)

HGL

IP I will not be convinced the Church has done wrong for much of 2000 years in the light of Matthew 28:20.

IP

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

He didn't teach us to pray to saints meek or even his mum, no, he said, 'When you pray....say OUR FATHER... etc. Obey Christ only

HGL

You know, WHAT he taught them is clearest from what THEY taught with their successors over 2000 years.

IP

The catholic church is a thinly veiled pagan religion, 'Come Out Of Her My Children' Obey Christ and all shall be well ;)

HGL

OK, where if so was the TRUE Church over 2000 years?

Why was English nation converted by "thinly veiled pagan religion"?

Why were Franks so? Why were Irish so? Why were Swedes so? Why were Kievan Rus so?

What was the supposed non-Catholic true Church doing while "thinly veiled paganism" did the converting of nations?

Not to mention, did you get the accusation from Hislop?

IP

Well, it's been great chatting with you, i don't suppose we will be able to change each other's points of view. I don't know who Hislop is. I just read the KJV and obey what Christ said.

The true church is all the ones who Jesus called his brothers and sisters including his mum. not any denomination or cult, i'm sure true brothers and sisters can be found in lots of traditions and religions, He still says, 'Come out of her my children' and 'My sheep hear my voice and follow me' so be it.

Hope you find the answers to your questions, go in peace.

HGL

"The true church is all the ones who Jesus called his brothers and sisters including his mum. not any denomination or cult"

In fact, it started out as one if you like "denomination".

Acts shows a clear visible unity.

Thanks, I was not looking for answers, I was offering them, and asking some as "Socratic paedagogy".

IP

Yep, see you later. Everyone is my teacher and I have learned something.

https://richarddawkins.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/2170-4209-1-PB.pdf

[Continued under V]

IV

APP

How did Mary go from considering herself to be the 'handmaid of the Lord' to having others call her the 'Mother of God'? That is quite the promotion! Almost deification!

And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. - Luke 1:38

HGL

Handmaid of the Father, Mother of the Son, Bride of the Holy Spirit.

And the promotion was due to "she said yes" (a k a "be it unto me according to thy word")

APP

Where is Mary mentioned as "Bride of the Holy Spirit in scripture"?

Handmaiden defined:

1. something that is necessarily subservient or subordinate to another: Ceremony is but the handmaid of worship.

2. a female servant or attendant

HGL

Sure, and handmaiden is what She is to the Father, according to Her own words.

As to "bride of the Holy Spirit" not to be taken carnally, but the Creed says "et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine".

APP

I'm looking for the scripture location: book, chapter, and verse. Any biblical reference that stated this 'creed' ?

HGL

Oh, the Creed is used by the Catholic Church.

That is enough for me.

Matthew 28:20 - Christ promised "all days"

V

AT

IP

Just keep in mind that the RCC was hiding the Bible for more than a millennium and after the protestants translated it the RCC burned them at the stake (to be more accurate they had the state authorities to do it) and persecuted them. That tells us a lot.

In fact I will quote what Hans tried to use, Matthew 28:20:

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

If RCC was truly Jesus TRUE church than they would be the first to translate the Bible and help the people to know and obey His commandments. But RCC not only hide the commandments, they even changed them (eg the 10 commandments of RCC are not the same as in the Bible). And the prophet Daniel foretold this Daniel 7:25 (Matthew 24:15).

"OK, where if so was the TRUE Church over 2000 years?"

It was hiding underground from Rome which you follow Hans.
The true church was persecuted and not in power!

"If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also."
John 15:18-25

Constantine The Great | Episode 1 | Lineage
Lineage Journey | 18.I.2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E20tbiVCAJc

HGL

"If RCC was truly Jesus TRUE church than they would be the first to translate the Bible"

Why translate?

You say it was born in the time of Constantine, and back then Latin and Greek were THE common languages.

"and help the people to know and obey His commandments."

Who says they didn't?

"But RCC not only hide the commandments,"

Who pretends they did?

"they even changed them (eg the 10 commandments of RCC are not the same as in the Bible)."

Again, dealt with here:

HGL's F.B. writings : Is Exodus 20:4 "second commandment"?
https://hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2018/11/is-exodus-204-second-commandment.html

"And the prophet Daniel foretold this Daniel 7:25 (Matthew 24:15)."

Checking the verses:

Daniel 7:[25] And he shall speak words against the High One, and shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.

Sry, but Catholicism has lasted much longer than 3 and a half years.

Matthew 24:[15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

In the immediate, Christ was referring to Destruction of Temple. These instructions are why Church of Jerusalem survived in Pella (Jordan, not Macedon) and could come back. Who are Palestinians.

"It was hiding underground from Rome which you follow Hans."

Church persons and churches can hide underground, but the CHURCH as a living witness can't.

I have dealt with this too:

Great Bishop of Geneva! : Resurrection, Holy Eucharist, Holy Poverty (or, Why Was Wycliff Wrong)
https://greatbishopofgeneva.blogspot.com/2013/02/resurrection-holy-eucharist-holy.html

In brief: Church cannot be a secret society.

"The true church was persecuted and not in power!"

Not likely with the great commission, since it says to convert nations. You don't do that by staying out of power.

Plus no excuse for secret society Church.

"If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also."
John 15:18-25

Hence Catholicism has also been persecuted.

GF

HGL actually he said his mum was not a disciple. “While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”” ‭‭
Matthew‬ ‭12:46-50‬ ‭

HGL

@GF, you missed that his male and female disciples are sufficiently divided among the categories "my brother" and "my sister" so when He added "and my mother" He was saying (indirectly and cautiously) that She WAS (and by the way,She still is) doing the will of the Father.

HGL

AT It seems someone (temporarily?) took away an aswer I gave you yesterday.

Just so no one misses it, here goes again: [repeating above]

GF

HGL to believe your lie someone would have to be very unintelligent. You will receive a liars reward.

AT

1. "Who pretends they did (change the commandments - RCC)?"

Well look at the Jewish interpretation of the 10 commandments, they havent mereged the 1 & 2.

+ the 4. commandment says to keep the 7. day not 1. day. So that was obviously changed - as I already pointed out that the Antichrist will try to "change the times":

"And he shall speak words against the High One, and shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws."

2. "it says to convert nations. You don't do that by staying out of power."

Jesus and His disciples didnt use secular nor religious power and yet they changed the world. So it is clearly not neccesary. In fact all of the authorities were against them - why do you assume things have changed?

3. 1. "Why translate? back then Latin and Greek were THE common languages."

Perhaps in the first centuries and in the Middle East and Rome. But many common people in other nations didnt speak nor understand these two languages. You quoted "convert the nations" - if that was truly the RCCs intent they would translate the Bible much earlier and they wouldnt started their own translations after the protestant priests already did it. Also first schools were founded by protestants, only after that did the Jesuits also formed their schooling system.

In my country there are still people alive who remember the mass in latin but they had no clue what the priest was saying. That was only 60-70 years ago. If it wasnt for protestantism we would still be in the dark ages.

In fact protestant priests in my country wrote the first books and first grammars in our own language, they opened first high schools and translated the first Bible in our language which led to the creation of our nation that was so long oppressed. Now that is the power of God. But what the RCC is doing is the power of evil, suppressing and dummbing down people. They tried to stifle and persecute people who were translating and teaching people to read. I wonder why?

If I find a better english source I ll post it later but I have some of the first Slovene grammars and first books, even the copy of the first Slovene Bible - it was ALL writen by protestant priests not catholics.

Primož Trubar - The Unknown Reformer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MJw39g3834&t=1s

HGL

GF It seems you are too prejudiced to do a real discussion.

GF

HGL you are defending your idol worship and love evil so you remain in darkness

HGL

"Well look at the Jewish interpretation of the 10 commandments, they havent mereged the 1 & 2."

Key word "interpretation" - as opposed to actual text, which does not say. Where a commandment begins and another ends is interpretation. Ten commandments in 16 verses is not like sth you can take one verse and say it is one commandment because it is one verse.

Also, verse numbers are modern. Even chapter limits are. They used to have other pericopes until a RC bishop invented the chapter divisions we have, and verse numbers outside psalms is even later, Renaissance I think. St Thomas Aquinas never used such in his Bible commentaries.

"Perhaps in the first centuries"

Well, as long as no written vernacular emerges, one can presume Latin writing is the expression of the spoken language.

"and in the Middle East and Rome."

All over the Roman Empire. All over the parts where modern historians say Roman Empire only had been earlier - i e for instance in Frankish kingdoms and in Visigothic Spain.

"But many common people"

What has common people to do with it? Latin and Greek were spoken by common people all over Roman Empire - most notable exception perhaps Egypt and Middle East and there were early and Catholic translations to Coptic and Syriac.

"in other nations didnt speak nor understand these two languages."

Nations outside and from Roman Empire started getting Bible parts (especially Gospels, in one case a Gospel harmony) into their languages in the first millennium.

"You quoted "convert the nations" - if that was truly the RCCs intent they would translate the Bible much earlier"

The Roman Catholic translations of "ealc thara tha gehierth thas min word" (Matthew 7:24) in Anglo-Saxon is one of the reasons we know that language, it is cited in Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer. It is centuries before Wycleff or Tyndale.

"and they wouldnt started their own translations after the protestant priests already did it."

Simply not true about history.

"Also first schools were founded by protestants, only after that did the Jesuits also formed their schooling system."

I know the history of my country. Schools were available during the Middle Ages, through the Catholic Church, they went down a lot at Reformation, and only a century later the modern system of Gymnasium (pre-University, not elementary, probably Gimnasijum in Slovene?) in Sweden is founded under Queen Christina, daughter of the deceased Gustavus II Adolphus. She converts.

You don't know the history of schools.

Perhaps you don't mean schools, but schools being compulsory for common people rather than a cultural asset, that is another matter, Jesuit schools were fortunately NOT compulsory.

Meanwhile, the modern system of compulsory schools in which Protestantism has part of the blame, is ruining peace in Western Ukraine:

New blog on the kid : While I am Glad Freedom from Communism ...
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2018/11/while-i-am-glad-freedom-from-communism.html

"In my country there are still people alive who remember the mass in latin but they had no clue what the priest was saying."

So? If you mean they did not understand the exact words, what is the problem?

The mass is a sacrifice, and it is made by the priest acting in the person of Christ.

"That was only 60-70 years ago. If it wasnt for protestantism we would still be in the dark ages."

Again, you are abusing a word in a way Commies would, Slovenia (your name is a Slovenian form of itself, just add a hacek on the final letter) being part of Titoist Yugoslavia. Economic system wasn't too bad under Tito (unlike Soviets), but the education system was obviously heavily biassed.

"In fact protestant priests in my country wrote the first books and first grammars in our own language,"

First printed books, there are Medieval documents in Slovene.

"they opened first high schools"

First since when? Or first at what, at teaching in Slovene rather than Latin, while in 16th C to be educated, you normally should have received teaching in Latin?

"and translated the first Bible in our language which led to the creation of our nation that was so long oppressed."

Oppressed by what?

Come on, Slovenes may have been somewhat oppressed on the Austrian side of the border after WW-I, but so were Germans on the Yugoslavian side.

Any town on Austrian side, they couldn't post a road sign saying Ulica cerkve sv. Jožefa - but on the Yugoslavian side, a German village couldn't post a street sign (I suppose) saying Sankt-Josephs Kirchenstraße.

"Now that is the power of God."

Learn history before you start telling what parts in it are of God!

"But what the RCC is doing is the power of evil, suppressing and dummbing down people."

Again, learn history.

"They tried to stifle and persecute people who were translating and teaching people to read. I wonder why?"

Not FOR translating (except in England, where persecution of Lollards was not in Papal hands), and not FOR teaching people to read.

"If I find a better english source I ll post it later but I have some of the first Slovene grammars and first books, even the copy of the first Slovene Bible - it was ALL writen by protestant priests not catholics."

Yes, the first printed book, first printed grammar and first printed Bible in Slovene were by Lutherans. Granted.

One thing more to these Lutherans : they had (not perhaps these three, but later on) the sense to become Catholic again. Like a Polish ancestor of Louis XVI.

UNLIKE the Lutherans in Sweden, where Lutheran heirs of Reformers are now blessing gay unions.

HGL

GF you made my point.

HGL

AT saw you are 7DA - Lutheran reformers would not be as Enthusiastic for you as you are for them.

They would also have given you the slip on this item:

"Jesus and His disciples didnt use secular nor religious power"

When?

Already in Acts St Philip is taking a ride from the Eunuch of the Ethiopian Queen - and Ethiopia was one very early converted nation.

"and yet they changed the world."

Eventually, through Constantine, through a King in Kent receiving St Augustine of Canterbury, through King Olof Skötkonung being baptised in Husaby Well, through perhaps already Samo or later certainly conversion of Boruth (also a wielder of secular power).

"So it is clearly not neccesary. In fact all of the authorities were against them - why do you assume things have changed?"

Because it says "nations" - not "individuals from all nations".

You cannot have a dictatorship persecuting all Christians simply for being Christians when all of the nation involved already is Christian, as Christ said He wanted it.

Lutherans are even more into this, in an exaggerated way, than Catholics.

GF

HGL are you saying you do not pray to Mary?

HGL if you pray to Mary you are an idolator plain and simple. End of discussion

HGL

I do pray to Mary as in honour her, say she is blessed among other women and indeed all created persons, and ask for her intercession, no, that is NOT idolatry, calling it so is un-Biblical and un-Ecclesial (therefore doubly un-Biblical) prejudice.