Some Muslims simply WANT TO find fault with Christianity

Islam Questions, Christianity Answers : Answering Yahya Snow · HGL's F.B. writings :Some Muslims simply WANT TO find fault with Christianity

When trying to contact Yahya Snow about an answer to a post he could have written, and under which I could not put a link to my answer in a comment, since comment section was closed, I came to a group "Muslims answering Christians". Today it is "Muslims answering Non-Muslims".

I had come to a status in that group, by group owner. I had answered it. I found my answer deleted today. So, I replaced it.

Muslims answering non Muslims

QUESTON : Who Is Responsible For This Contradiction ??
1. Writers
2. Holy Ghost (God)

◄ Matthew 27:28 ►
New International Version
28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him,

◄ John 19:2 ►
New International Version
2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple rob

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I think I gave some answers yesterday.

They seem deleted.

"No, that was perhaps another group, Muslims answering Christians"

I just checked, it is the same group.

One answer given in accordance to Catholic commenters was it could be describing one colour in two colour names.

If pure scarlet is :

Red 237
Green 28
Blue 36

And if pure purple is:

Red 255
Green 128
Blue 255

Then a colour like:

Red 246
Green 73
Blue 145

could be described either as "scarlet" or as "purple" without absurdity.



Also, it could refer to two garments.

Douay Rheims has cloak in Matthew and garment in John.

Vulgate has chlamys in Matthew and vestis in John.

Note

in my comments yesterday, I also linked to the Haydock Comment.

That link went down with my deleted comment.

Two other examples

II

Muslims answering non Muslims

QUESTION : WHO WROTE THE BOOK OF JOSHUA ??
Did Joshua Buried Himself And Then Write It Down ??

◄ Joshua 24:29-30 ►
New International Version
29 After these things, Joshua son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died at the age of a hundred and ten. 30 And they buried him in the land of his inheritance, at Timnath Serah[a] in the hill country of Ephraim, north of Mount Gaash.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Joshua wrote 23 chapters, the 24th chapter was written on his order to include his death.

III

Muslims answering non Muslims

300 priests raped 1000 children in the state of Pennsylvania, but I haven’t heard a single muslim portray all Christians as child rapists.

Saman A. Ahmed

Only Muslims are targeted !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• 1) Under Islamic law, it would not be rape.
• 2) None of these priests is Jesus in Person.

Note, under Catholic law, marrying a 9 year old would not be exactly rape, but it would also not be correct.

The traditional limit is 14 for men and 12 for women.

Yet another

the page (administrator) is giving extremely weak answers on John 8:[58] Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

But alas, I have trouble commenting there, technically.

You know, page not standing still, a comment not sticking first time I write and post it, the kind of things admins can do to an internet user ... the one answer was based on our preexistence in the mind of God before we were made, but this is equally true of both Jesus as man and of Abraham, and is no basis for comparing them as He did. The other answer was that Jesus was not using same verb in John 8:58 as God in Exodus 3:14 - to prove which Exodus is cited in Hebrew and John in Greek.

He could NOT wait one hour, as I had asked ... at least not immediately

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl You think you have a question, that can justify praying to Mary.

OK, ask it simply, I will see if I can answer.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Reread, here is a link to our debate so far, and please do not get back for one hour, not just so you have time to read, but so I can get a well merited break from a chore of dealing with Protestants which actually does stop me from praying the Rosary. I cannot pronounce the words "as we also forgive those who trespass against us" when dealing too often with you, so I skip the Rosary and just say three Hail Mary's without the Our Fathers.

Here is for your reread:

[link to previous]

Baxter Lane

Dude, really, you are going back to making her a pagan goddess :( I fear for you Hans, I really do.

This seems to me, that you are putting a goddess between you and Jesus,

Do you have a question I can answer, that you believe will teach me it is ok to pray to Mary, to treat her like a pagan goddess instead of the blessed mother of Jesus?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Before that, I have another one:

• are you equally fond of strawman when directed to yourself?

And another one:

• did you ever learn manners?

I asked you to pause one hour, because I was tired, I get to FB for sth else, but also curious if you had been polite, and what do I see?

A strawman which comes too soon as per my request for an hours pause.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl That is not a straw man, the only righteous use of prayer, is to God.

Every other use is pagan,

Why do you think I commanded you in the name and power of Jesus to stop?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Because you are a lout who prefers bustling over debate with Christians (real or self-supposed) who don't agree with you?

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl No, because I love you so much, and want you to be in the Kingdom with me and Jesus!

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am horrified as a man who greatly admires Jesus, that people pray to her, for it is wickedness, I am more horrified that it will keep you from Jesus, from knowing Him.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If I were NOT a Christian, you would be scaring me away.

As it is, I know Jesus, because I know the Church and because I know Mary.

As to your "love", it starts to feel like the approach of a faggot.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl But I am not treating you like a run of the mill pagan, but like a person trying to follow Jesus, but lead astray by wicked pagan practices.

If you were a Hindu, I would not speak to you this way.

Why for God's love would I command a Hindu in the name of Jesus?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Why would you command a Catholic in the name of Jesus, when he knows you aren't talking for Him?

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Because Hans, either Catholics are followers of Jesus and therefore should be rebuked by others for pagan practices, or they are not and need to be drawn out of Catholicism to follow Jesus in truth.

Do not be a fool and think Catholicism is separate from other followers of Jesus, we are all one church if we follow Him, no other way to see it.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Or, third possibility you haven't considered, Catholics don't have Pagan practises in the first place.

There are no "other followers of Jesus" adequately as per longstanding confession, and individuals and groups presently outside but still genuinely Christian need to convert.

It seems

he did get it, his manners were not so monstruous after all ...

Sinlessness of Mary - and Continuity of the Church

OP

Did Jesus have Mary's DNA?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Apart from a Y-chromosome from Adam (the one removed in creating Eve), yes.

DW

IT is irrelevant

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No, it is not.

Christ was sinless. His DNA was chosen so it would not be TOO hard for Him. If that DNA was, a Y chromosome from Adam before he fell and the rest from Mary, this is relevant to whether She also is sinless.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl One, Mary was a woman like other women, honored more than any other surely, all genterations will call her blessed,

Second, that seems to have too much information, the bible doesn't go anywhere near any of that Hans. how do you know?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

One of the reasons given by theologians why Mary is sinless is, "caro Christi est caro Mariae".

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Mary being sinless is a pagan belief, it leads people to treat the blessed woman who nursed Jesus Himself as a filthy pagan goddess.

I tell you, they will have their punishment if they seek Mary instead of Jesus. The wickedness of praying to Mary, that wonderful woman of God who cared for and sucked the Lord Himself, is beyond the pale, putrid, and fills me with a certain hard to contain rage.

Hans-Georg Lundahl Satan will have his place in the lake of fire for this pagan twisting of the Way Jesus left us, as so many of his other choices will bring horrifying punishment in the lake of fire, forevermore.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Mary being sinless is a pagan belief"

If Genesis 3:15 is a pagan text ...

Enmity with the serpent = no sin.
Bc sin = slavery under the serpent.

"it leads people to treat the blessed woman who nursed Jesus Himself as a filthy pagan goddess."

As what Pagan goddess? I have a few Pagan goddesses in my knowledge of mythology to look to ...

"they will have their punishment if they seek Mary instead of Jesus."

Get a grip in prologue of Glories of Mary. That is impossible. Mary will always lead you to Jesus.*

"The wickedness of praying to"

What exact nuance do you put in "praying to"?

Adoring? We don't do that. Asking for intercession? Certainly we do that, and so do you of other people as well.

"fills me with a certain hard to contain rage."

Which could be Satanic - or simply zeal withnout knowledge.

"Satan will have his place in the lake of fire for this pagan twisting of the Way Jesus left us, as so many of his other choices will bring horrifying punishment in the lake of fire, forevermore."

You are saying Churches where one "prays to Mary" are misled by Satan and therefore not the Church meant in Matthew 28:20?

Bc if you are, how about telling me what Church IS meant in Matthew 28:20?

Remember, Christ was speaking to the eleven (Matthew 28:16) and these had, along with Judas been chosen as precisely clergy of His Church:

"And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles)."
[Luke 6:13]

"And he made that twelve should be with him, and that he might send them to preach."
[Mark 3:14]

So, the promise in Matthew 28:20 was given to officials of the Church - the chosen preachers.

This means, a Church which deviates from His teaching cannot be the one He meant here.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl It leads people to pray to her like a goddess!

It is a trick of Satan, if you are a Catholic I command you in the power of Jesus the Christ to never pray to or seek anybody but God again!

The Way Jesus left us, by no means allows any other gods but Him. We may not pray to Mary or to Baal or to Peter or to anybody but God, ever.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You have no power over Catholics.

Matthew 28:20 promised power to the eleven and their successors, which are the Catholic bishops, not to Baxter Lane who is not one such.

As to the command, in content, it is also off, since a strawman.

Adoring Baal involves quite a lot of other things than "praying to".

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I have power over Catholics, if they are of Jesus sir. That is a test, for all who follow the Way, all who are on the narrow path are in one group.

You just failed the test, as to weather Catholicism is a pagan religion or part of the body of Christ.

Your honesty is appreciated.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"I have power over Catholics, if they are of Jesus sir."

You have not. The Church has not sent you.

"You just failed the test, as to weather Catholicism is a pagan religion or part of the body of Christ."

The Church does not claim to be PART OF the Body of Christ, but to BE the Body of Christ - in Heaven, Purgatory, and on Earth.

Convenient for you to be devising the test, also.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Sir, you misunderstand, Jesus sent us!

The group you call the church, who teaches you to pray to Mary and make her a filthy pagan goddess instead of the blessed mother who bore Jesus, is not the Church, is not the body of Christ, but as you proved is a pagan group teaching to

Well, lets be simple, pray the rosary to Mary, repent and turn to Jesus, for only in Him is salvation found

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Look here, Jesus sent his Eleven. Since then, they and their successors are doing the sending.

Your last advise is actually good, since the rosary to Mary does involve repentance and refers to Jesus all the time.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Sir, Jesus sent over 500 at His ascension, you have been taught that this church, teaching you the filthy practice of praying to dead followers of God, is the Way.

it is a lie, I love you and in Christ call you out of that lie

Come to Jesus, for only in Him is salvation found

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Jesus sent over 500 at His ascension"

Reference? Matthew 28 says eleven just before Ascension.

But supposing you are right, over 500 were standing right behind the eleven and were also sent:

this does not change that we are dealing with a promise to the Church.

According to Matthew 28:20 you cannot have a Church of Christ which has not been around since Ascension day.

"you have been taught that this church, teaching you the filthy practice of praying to dead followers of God,"

You are still refusing to tell what you mean exactly by "praying to".

You are also calling "dead" people who live in Christ.

"Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:"
[John 11:25]

You are calling "dead" people who follow the Lamb:

"These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb:"
[Apocalypse 14:4]

You are calling "dead" people who are before the throne of God (and that is why they can intercede):

"And in their mouth there was found no lie; for they are without spot before the throne of God."
[Apocalypse 14:5]

Back to your words:

"it is a lie, I love you and in Christ call you out of that lie"

I don't think the Bible is a lie, nor that the Church Christ founded is misreading it. You are. I am no bishop, I do not claim authority over you, but I ask you to consider this and leave the lies of your human tradition, which is 500 years old or younger.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Sir, I am sorry you are following a false faith, but I tell you in Christ if you truly love and know Him, stop praying to anybody but God.

I am on the fence, it may be possible that the Catholic church has true followers of Jesus in it, but has just added wicked pagan practices on top of the truth.

In Christ I once again command you, only pray to God!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You cannot command Christians in the name of Christ.

Since you cannot trace your Church back to the eleven - or to the 500 standing behind them, possibly. Still waiting for your reference, hadn't time to check St Mark.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I can and must, as a follower of Christ it is my responsibility to teach and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them all that Jesus commanded.

May authority is not my own, but that of Christ.

You may not pray to any but God, if you do this wicked thing, Stop Now Today, never again spit on Jesus like this.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"I can and must, as a follower of Christ it is my responsibility to teach and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them all that Jesus commanded"

Those are Christ's words to the eleven, and to a Church existing all days. Yours hasn't.

You are also imprecise as to what you mean by "pray to".

We do NOT adore Mary, we do NOT adore St Peter. We honour and ask intercession.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am sorry Hans, you don't seem to be able to hear.

Let me back up, let us reason together, I know of one example in the Holy Bible where a man went to a dead follower of God and sought his help, sought his help to intercede with God for him.

This example is a very old one, of course no such thing exists in the New Testamament.

It is of Saul and Samuel.

This example is a very old one, of course no such thing exists in the New Testament. instead of seeking God? Please answer sir.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

First, Saul did not simply pray to Samuel, second, before Christ died, Samuel was still detained in Sheol, heaven was closed.

Saul tried to SUMMON Samuel by a witch.

VERY different.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Then Hans, show me one more example, one in the Holy Bible, of Holy followers of Jesus or God the Father seeking a dead follower of God to intercede for Him.

As a believer, I am responsible to search the scripture to see if what men say is true.

You, if you be a believer have that same responsibility.

Where else, in the Holy Bible do we see men seeking the dead?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Second, Saul never asked Samuel to intercede for him.

I just checked, you miscited the story to suit your argument.

THIRD the rich man was not rebuked for impossibility of Lazarus or Abraham hearing - but because the rich man, already damned, was across a chasm where he no more could be asking.

"As a believer, I am responsible to search the scripture to see if what men say is true. You, if you be a believer have that same responsibility."

Usually this is not our responsibility. Bishops do so for us.

You may be referring to Jews in Thessalonica who were searching the OT before deciding to become Christians - but that was the responsibility before conversion.

"Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so."
[Acts Of Apostles 17:11]

[Sorry, he may have referred to Bereans, not those in Thessalonica, my misreading. See next two comments.]

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Have you never heard of the Beereans, have you never heard how they were more noble than the other churches planted by Paul, because they searched the scripture daily to see if what they were taught is true.

You can come up with no example in the bible of men seeking those who died in God for help with God, because it is a pagan practice that leads folks away from Jesus.

I am afraid for you Hans, I love you and want you to come to Jesus even today. You are hiding behind Bishops and people who teach you to make Mary, oh the horror this must bring to that good womans heart, into a pagan goddess by praying to her.

Please, commanding didn't help, I plead with you in the name of Jesus, stop this wicked thing!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Have you never heard of the Beereans, have you never heard how they were more noble than the other churches planted by Paul, because they searched the scripture daily to see if what they were taught is true."

You misread the story in Acts.

The Bereans were NOT yet a Church, NOT yet planted by Paul.

They were nobler than those in Thessalonica, namely Jews, and they were a SYNAGOGUE deciding whether to become Christians or not.

So they had to search before converting, and so did I before I became a Catholic. YEARS.

You are basically telling me, I have to start that work all over again, every time a Protestant challenges me, and that even not the kind of Protestant I was, but the kind of Protestant I was NOT.

You are an Anti-Catholic Evangelical. While I was more or less Evangelical, I was not Anti-Catholic and while I was Lutheran, even less so. Meaning, the slight Anticatholic prejudice which never amounted to actually being Anti-Catholic left me.

I thought I had a ground as a Swede to belong to a Church which thought it had a ground to leave the Catholic one in 1527. I looked at 1527 and I thought again. All the while doing so, I very much DID search the Scriptures, like the Bereans did.

And like the Bereans were verifying the claims of St Paul, I was verifying those of Catholic catechisms.

"You can come up with no example in the bible of men seeking those who died in God for help with God,"

Yes, I did. A refused request, but the refusal was for the man being already beyond help, and for his brothers being so too.

"because it is a pagan practice"

Which Paganism does it come from?

Greco-Romans honoured their dead in a very different fashion. I am a mythology geek and a Classics buff, so if you want to bluff about Greco-Roman Paganism, try someone else - or preferrably don't.

"that leads folks away from Jesus."

Not what the Church has found during 2000 years.

"You are hiding behind Bishops and people who teach you to make Mary, oh the horror this must bring to that good womans heart, into a pagan goddess by praying to her."

Hiding is really not the word.

And making Her into a "Pagan Goddess" isn't either. You already failed the request to answer "which Pagan goddess" we would be making Her into.

One more, in the case of Mary, we are not praying to someone who is dead, but to someone raised from the dead and assumed into Heaven, so Her body could share part of the fate of Her Sons (as to the Crucifixion, that is when a sword passed through Her soul, so She shared that too).

In case you want to hear where that is in the Bible, where do you see in the Bible that She either sinned or died and remained dead? It's not there.

But more, Apocalypse 12.

So, you are asking me to stop a wicked thing, in a way which is like asking me to stop beating my wife. If I haven't started beating my wife, I'd better not start instead. Same with turning the Blessed Virgin into a Pagan Goddess. I'd better never start that - and I didn't start it by becoming Catholic or by praying the Rosary.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl :( I am asking you to stop praying to Mary, or any other dead follower of God, and only pray to God.

If you cannot, well, I fear you don't even know Jesus and when you come to hear will hear the dreaded, depart from me, I never knew you.

Let me ask you, have you been baptized as a born again believer, or are you trusting that you don't need to obey Jesus and be baptized, it was enough for your parents to have that done for you when you were young?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

My parents actually had such a scruple.

I was baptised as a Lutheran at 15 and this after receiving Christ as my Lord and Saviour at age ten and before being received into the Catholic Church at age 20.

I did search the Scriptures very attentively under those years, not with apprehension, but with the eagerness of the Bereans.

Yes, the Catholic claims do match up with Scripture, and as to you, well, hasty judgement and refusing to even hear a correction about what I actually believe or do may be a sickness in you or may be a sin, for which you will have to answer as to why you did not chose the Church Christ had founded.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl So, I don't know much of religion, I know of Jesus.

I am happy to hear you did indeed obey Jesus and were baptized

What lead you into praying to the dead, can I ask?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What led you to despise praying to the deceased believers?

Misreading Saul and Samuel?

Saul did NOT ask Samuel to intercede, but to give advice.

I already told you, Lazarus and Abraham could be asked for intercession, it was the requests of the rich Pharisee that were impossible requests.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am a man who has spent many hours in the bible, and I know Gods will in this.

If it were His will for us to follow the pagans into ancestor worship, we would do so, he never mentioned it, and I know we must not.

Can you tell me, what lead you into thinking praying to the dead is fine?

Justin Piraino

What is the purpose of prayer?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"I am a man who has spent many hours in the bible,"

I believe you.

So did I, among other things when concerting to Catholicism.

"and I know Gods will in this."

Does not follow from previous, since you don't think it follows from my Bible studies when converting that I know God's will in this.

"If it were His will for us to follow the pagans into ancestor worship, we would do so, he never mentioned it, and I know we must not."

I am very well familiar with what Pagan Ancestor worship was. Neither praying TO saints in Heaven, nor praying FOR saints in Purgatory matches that.

"Can you tell me, what lead you into thinking praying to the dead is fine?"

Did, see above, reread.

And before you actually get what I am saying about the Rich Man and Lazarus and how Sheol is described and how intercession is described, leave off repetitive, impertinent and already answered questions.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am sorry, you are hiding behind people who have imported pagan practices into the Way left by Jesus, and His blood.

maybe, I don't know, maybe you can still be on the Way while following such pagan practices

but I fear for your soul that you cannot, I love you Hans, and I beg you, forsake praying to the dead, and only seek God.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Before you call a practise pagan, prove it corresponds to a pagan rite and prove it contradicts the Bible.

Also, this has gone on two hours.**

Also, you are dodging my questions, presuming I must always answer yours.

That is not how you do debates.

Note *

The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori (Online) and other Titles on the Most Blessed Virgin Mary
http://www.themostholyrosary.com/catholic-books-virgin-mary.htm

The Glories of Mary
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories.htm#INTRO

Since I could not find the phrase I added in the Introduction, I sent an email ...

Get a grip in prologue of Glories of Mary. That is impossible. Mary will always lead you to Jesus.

So, I think the phrase was in Alphonsus, and sent an email to people who can find it ...

Note **

I checked.

Elves, Trolls, Pre-Flood - Continued

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Neanderthal's Language · Creation vs. Evolution : Neanderthal - speculations and certainty · HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS : Neanderthal Pre- or Post-Flood? Me and Roger Pearlman ... · Neanderthal Flute · Neanderthals as Elves and Trolls and as Pre-Flood · Elves, Trolls, Pre-Flood - Continued

I notified

of the previous discussions being mirrored on my blog.

IV a

Ryan Z. Dawson

There's a...well there's a lot one might unpack here. Things to be said about the historicity of the Biblical stories of Noah and the Tower of Babel, about Hebrew being the only language at some point, about H. neanderthalensis being descended from Noah, but none of that is really relevant to a discussion about conlangs spoken by fictional elves. This proposition to develop a Hebraic Neanderthal language might be a better fit for the Constructed Languages group, which discusses conlangs in general.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Ryan Z. Dawson : you forget the salient point that one version of how Neanderthals looked would have made them a probable historical original for both elves and trolls.

You ALSO miscontructed my view on when H. S. subsp. Neanderthalensis existed.

Mainstream creationism, as you say, descended from Noah. My own view : descended from Adam (possibly as or via Nephelim) and extinct during the Flood, except for at least one of Noah's daughters in law (probably Mrs Japheth) being half caste Neanderthal.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl so...you sure you know what a caste is?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I think "half caste"* is the less offensive word in comparison to "half breed". I'd use "half breed" about dogs of different breeds.

Would "mestiza" do?

Have you other suggestions?

*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-caste

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl hybrid, which is the accepted term for when two species produce a child, be it sterile or not

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Since I do not consider Neanderthals another species, hybrid would be very inappropriate.

Did you know that "caste" is Portuguese for race?

Hence, half caste is perfectly appropriate.

The Indian caste system was partly a racialist system (whiter skin = higher caste), which is why the Portuguese word got applied to it. The Sanskrit word actually (off the top of my head) means "colour".

IV b

Thomas Harris

True to a degree, however, the OP paired the theory that the memory of Neanderthal pallida was a potential source of Elven lore.

Ryan Z. Dawson

Peanut butter for the medicine.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Not at all.

If I am right on it, it means elves and trolls are historical.

The following section, IV c, I did change my mind on. I think Neanderthals may well have sounded fairly normal. They were certainly capable of normal purposeful behaviour.

IV c

Hans-Georg Lundahl

According to this, an adult Neanderthal male would have sounded like a troll:

High-pitched voice theory - Neanderthal - BBC science
BBC Studios | 9.I.2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o589CAu73UM

Unable to speak properly ... but as Neanderthal children did not have so large thoraces, the Neanderthals could still have spoken and a Neanderthal child doing the enticement before a Neanderthal cannibal feast could be original to elvish voices - leading to ruin, as in Erlenkönig.

My hopes for some Neanderthals being decent pre-Flood fellows is, while in Belgium Neanderthal tooth enamel has been found including DNA of man and of woolly rhino, in Spain Neanderthal tooth enamel has been found including DNA of pine nuts.

Which would be a possible source, if so, for ljósalfar or Tolkien type elves (at a distance of 5000 years, by now, or 4000 in the time of Snorre).

V

J Diego Suárez Hernández

I wanted to believe the "flood" mentioned in this post referred to the flooding of Doggerland rather than or perhaps the Black Sea deluge hypothesis but I'm afraid some of those links seem to indicate that is not the case :/

Also, what do you mean exactly by Hebrew? There's a ten of thousands of years gap between Neanderthal extinction and Proto-Afro-Asiatic, let alone Hebrew in any recognizable form. Or would this be an alternative world where the Neanderthals lingered till far more recent times?

I really hope it's not the case, but if you happened to be the type that disregards the work of centuries of linguists and claimed that Hebrew was the original language of mankind, then I'd gladly invite you to get the f out.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"There's a ten of thousands of years gap between Neanderthal extinction and Proto-Afro-Asiatic, let alone Hebrew in any recognizable form."

If you accept carbon dates according to conventional calibration.

And if you accept Hebrew being "descended from Proto-Afro-Asiatic".

I do neither.

"Or would this be an alternative world where the Neanderthals lingered till far more recent times?"

It's an alternative view (a Young Earth Creationist one) of the history of this world.

"if you happened to be the type that disregards the work of centuries of linguists"

I don't disregard the work of linguists. I reinterpret some of the data.

"and claimed that Hebrew was the original language of mankind,"

Like St Augustine, I do claim that.

"then I'd gladly invite you to get the f out."

Are you an admin? Or are you just disagreeable?

J Diego Suárez Hernández

Just disagreeable. Though you should bear in mind that most people in these groups will consider you a lunatic for ignoring mainstream linguistics and many may try to engage in showing you how silly Augustine's claim is in the face of historical evidence. I won't even try to, I don't think its worth my time.

I hope you have a good day and also that you do get the f out of here eventually.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"a lunatic for ignoring mainstream linguistics"

I am not ignoring it. I am reinterpreting its data with other theories.

"and many may try to engage in showing you how silly Augustine's claim is in the face of historical evidence."

What historical evidence?

Since Babel = Göbekli Tepe, there is no historical, that is written and therefore linguistic, evidence for linguistic variety pre-dating Hebrew.

As to earliest written evidence for Hebrew, I am not adverse to Hebrew in this sense being Syriac and therefore Eblaite. I mean, Syriac was Christ's language and may have been Abraham's too, and the earliest shape can have been sth like Eblaite - or Ugarite.

"I won't even try to, I don't think its worth my time."

Your choice.

"I hope you have a good day and also that you do get the f out of here eventually."

Thank you for the former. As to the latter, I am right now enjoying some discussions.

ALSO, since a Neanderthal Hebrew (or Neanderthal Syriac) with reduced vowels system is beyond my capacities to conlang, I hope someone does do for me and shows Hebrew (or Syriac) could have functioned grammatically, despite Neanderthal phonetic handicaps.

The following section, VI, I did change my mind on. I think Neanderthals may well have sounded fairly normal. They were certainly capable of normal purposeful behaviour.

VI

Hans-Georg Lundahl

SUBTHREAD FOR LANGUAGE ONLY.

Thomas Harris - this one is for you - and for the answers I am asking.

Here is one part of Neanderthal specific speech handicaps:

Homo Sapiens vs Neanderthals | The Evolution of Language
Epic History | 3.I.2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9KnOjsc0g4&t=280s

Here is another part:

High-pitched voice theory - Neanderthal - BBC science
BBC Studios | 9.I.2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o589CAu73UM

The final inaudible or inarticulate version would be specific to adults, since children had no such thoracic cage as the adults.

Problem : could children speak a kind of Hebrew in an intelligible way, if we accept this worst case scenario?

Thomas Harris

That's a good question. If one were to take, for instance, a set of phonemes that a Neanderthal could produce... Keeping in mind that children learn language from parents, so it would have to be ones that both adults and children could produce... And apply it to a word list like a Swadesh 207, would we get anything that looked like a modern Semitic language. Would a modern Israeli understand it if it were spoken to them, for instance, in the streets of Tel Aviv?

I'd like to see a list of phonemes and a theoretical Swadesh list of what you're proposing.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Keeping in mind that children learn language from parents, so it would have to be ones that both adults and children could produce"

This would be different in people where adults lost capacity fo speech altogether, seeing that thoracic cage doomed them to sound like Chewbacca past a certain age - unless they breathed very slowly, which would perhaps work for rare occasions.

So, children could perhaps learn from women (if they had less huge thoracic cages), perhaps from Cro-Magnon captives.

The problem with a low skull floor would be the vowels.

So, Hebrew phonology or Syriac phonology, but vowels reduced to basically ø or ö and waw and yod realised as the glide in French "puis", unless they used v as substitute for waw in some positions.

As I don't know Hebrew or Syriac, I'd need someone else to work it out for me, if it could have been a feasible grammar or not.

And which functions - if any - would have had to been collapsed if expressed in Hebrew with such phonetic reduction.

I couldn't write a Swadesh list for Hebrew or for Syriac - that is why I am asking in this group, where presumably someone can.

Thomas Harris "Would a modern Israeli understand it if it were spoken to them, for instance, in the streets of Tel Aviv?"

That is NOT the issue.

Many English would not understand Scots, even when it's just English phonemes with different phones.

Lighthouse pronounced as latehoose.

I didn't get that one until I had been there.

"like Chewbacca" - like a mix of Chewbacca and Elmer ...

VII

David Salo

I've deleted some long threads about the historicity of the Biblical Flood and related topics.

This is a group whose main topics are (a) language and (b) fantastic beings (i.e., beings out of fantasy) speaking in languages. It's not a group for discussing either the Bible, Bible-inspired myths (except where those involve fantastic beings with unique languages), or geology. Please try to be a little bit topical!

N.b., Neanderthals are not fantastic beings in the sense given above, and therefore they and their linguistic capacities are not strictly topical either.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What if they are the historical background to legends of elves and trolls?

David Salo

For the purposes of this group, "historical" and "fantastical" are mutually exclusive categories.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Sounds like a great option if you think "fantastical" actually excludes "historical".

Less great if you don't think so - i e, the position of moderation favours a position about the subject of the group, that elves and trolls are strictly ahistorical.

In other words, the dialogue between Susan Pevensie and Audoin Errol in my fan fic is one they could not have conducted over this group.

EN LENGUA ROMANCE EN ANTIMODERNISM Y DE MIS CAMINACIONES : So What Are Fairies?
http://enfrancaissurantimodernism.blogspot.com/2013/04/so-what-are-fairies.html

David Salo

Oh, no, I think trolls are quite real. I just don't want them infesting this group.

Ryan Z. Dawson

Hans-Georg Lundahl

David Salo I feel somewhat pointed at!

I don't have THAT many Neanderthal genes!

My skull floor is not flat!

On Blessing of Salt and Water

Don Nugent

Admin · 26 juillet, 14:57

You have heard of "holy" water, right? How about "holy" salt? Catholics use it this way, they tell us, "Salt may also be blessed for use as a sacramental, using the same prayer as is used during the preparation of holy water. This salt may be sprinkled in a room, or across a threshold, or in other places as an invocation of divine protection. This will keep demons and possessed persons away from a home and crossing a line made of salt. It may also be consumed." Is there any scripture at all for this practice? Or is it just another piece of paganism?

My subthread:

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Salt and water are creatures.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

DM

No they are not! That’s absurd and is witchcraft

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You mean salt and water are uncreated?

Before the beginning, there was God, but also salt and water?

DM

Hans-Georg Lundahl they are not creatures they are not living creatures - do you preach to the air as well?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Daniel 3:[73] O ye lightnings and clouds, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever

And yes, there is a prayer which is a blessing for the weather too.

As to "living" that is not stated in Mark 16:15.

DM

a creature is alive, but then I suppose you could preach to dead rabbits, do you? The context of the word itself carries the unspoken adjective living with it as well as the whole phrase.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"a creature is alive"

So, is water not a creature? Is water eternal and coeternal with God? Is matter indestructible and increatable?

Is God creator only of life?

Obviously that is not true.

So, we preach to and perhaps even more importantly by inanimate creatures as well.

A Bible as material object is inanimate too. Have you never ever seen a pastor in your Church pray over a Bible for all who read it?

Or a cross?

[Or food just before eating - this last point was never answered by either.]

DM

Hans-Georg Lundahl you insist in not staying with the context of the verse so I can’t help you

Don Nugent

Back in the day my Dad had a "pet rock" which I still have and take care of. Part of God's creation but not alive, I am not thaking the rock out for a walk even though it is a pet Now what would be the difference there? One thing, the rock is not alive. In the English language we recognize the difference between God's creation and God's creatures. Creation includes everything, but creatures are just things alive.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

In the Latin language "creatura" means any thing which is created. Things alive would be "viventia" or even "animalia" (if you don't include plants in your usage of "creatures"). Latin is prior to English in the Church.

A Catholic priest would probably have blessed your pet rock with holy water in order to drive out any possible demons from it, for instance.

DM - context does not change meaning.

Souls of not just living but human creatures have been won because two Franciscans took that verse very literally : the father founder St Francis preaching to birds and St Anthony to fish.

Birds flying out like the four arms of a cross or fish lifting heads out of water helped some people think "oh, we should listen to this/that guy" and that saved their souls.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacramentals
http://newadvent.com/cathen/13292d.htm

Summa Theologiae TP Q[87] Of The Remission Of Venial Sin
http://summa-theologiae.org/question/50903.htm

Don Nugent

Hans-Georg Lundahl He had better leave my pet rock alone.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Better for him, if you'r[e] in a bad mood, perhaps, not sure it's better for you!

Don Nugent

He should go back to preaching to birds and fishes for all the good it does. And he just missed Shark Week. Too bad. I don't think there is a Great White Shark in heaven somehow. Birds would be nice though. Taken altogether, preaching to birds and fishes, is what generally here in Florida could land you in the loony bin.

DM

Hans-Georg Lundahl context is always part of the meaning

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Don Nugent There are no birds or fish from the audience of Sts Francis or Anthony in Heaven - as far as we know, unless God made an exception.

There ARE some crowds of human souls up there, who converted on seeing the behaviour of fish and fowl to those preachers.

Precisely as St Peter's caught and eaten fish presumably are not in Heaven, but he is due to the circumstances when catching them.

DM There is nothing in the context which goes against the Catholic practise.

Also, no - if no sentence had a meaning of its own apart from context, there could be no contextual meaning either, since the sentence you start building that from could be one you misunderstood due to taking that out of context.

However, I will give you : social context about what "creatura" means (Latin in His time and English in ours, slight transscription) is relevant to meaning.

DM will be credited in full name, if so wishing ...