Sinlessness of Mary - and Continuity of the Church

OP

Did Jesus have Mary's DNA?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Apart from a Y-chromosome from Adam (the one removed in creating Eve), yes.

DW

IT is irrelevant

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No, it is not.

Christ was sinless. His DNA was chosen so it would not be TOO hard for Him. If that DNA was, a Y chromosome from Adam before he fell and the rest from Mary, this is relevant to whether She also is sinless.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl One, Mary was a woman like other women, honored more than any other surely, all genterations will call her blessed,

Second, that seems to have too much information, the bible doesn't go anywhere near any of that Hans. how do you know?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

One of the reasons given by theologians why Mary is sinless is, "caro Christi est caro Mariae".

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Mary being sinless is a pagan belief, it leads people to treat the blessed woman who nursed Jesus Himself as a filthy pagan goddess.

I tell you, they will have their punishment if they seek Mary instead of Jesus. The wickedness of praying to Mary, that wonderful woman of God who cared for and sucked the Lord Himself, is beyond the pale, putrid, and fills me with a certain hard to contain rage.

Hans-Georg Lundahl Satan will have his place in the lake of fire for this pagan twisting of the Way Jesus left us, as so many of his other choices will bring horrifying punishment in the lake of fire, forevermore.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Mary being sinless is a pagan belief"

If Genesis 3:15 is a pagan text ...

Enmity with the serpent = no sin.
Bc sin = slavery under the serpent.

"it leads people to treat the blessed woman who nursed Jesus Himself as a filthy pagan goddess."

As what Pagan goddess? I have a few Pagan goddesses in my knowledge of mythology to look to ...

"they will have their punishment if they seek Mary instead of Jesus."

Get a grip in prologue of Glories of Mary. That is impossible. Mary will always lead you to Jesus.*

"The wickedness of praying to"

What exact nuance do you put in "praying to"?

Adoring? We don't do that. Asking for intercession? Certainly we do that, and so do you of other people as well.

"fills me with a certain hard to contain rage."

Which could be Satanic - or simply zeal withnout knowledge.

"Satan will have his place in the lake of fire for this pagan twisting of the Way Jesus left us, as so many of his other choices will bring horrifying punishment in the lake of fire, forevermore."

You are saying Churches where one "prays to Mary" are misled by Satan and therefore not the Church meant in Matthew 28:20?

Bc if you are, how about telling me what Church IS meant in Matthew 28:20?

Remember, Christ was speaking to the eleven (Matthew 28:16) and these had, along with Judas been chosen as precisely clergy of His Church:

"And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles)."
[Luke 6:13]

"And he made that twelve should be with him, and that he might send them to preach."
[Mark 3:14]

So, the promise in Matthew 28:20 was given to officials of the Church - the chosen preachers.

This means, a Church which deviates from His teaching cannot be the one He meant here.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl It leads people to pray to her like a goddess!

It is a trick of Satan, if you are a Catholic I command you in the power of Jesus the Christ to never pray to or seek anybody but God again!

The Way Jesus left us, by no means allows any other gods but Him. We may not pray to Mary or to Baal or to Peter or to anybody but God, ever.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You have no power over Catholics.

Matthew 28:20 promised power to the eleven and their successors, which are the Catholic bishops, not to Baxter Lane who is not one such.

As to the command, in content, it is also off, since a strawman.

Adoring Baal involves quite a lot of other things than "praying to".

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I have power over Catholics, if they are of Jesus sir. That is a test, for all who follow the Way, all who are on the narrow path are in one group.

You just failed the test, as to weather Catholicism is a pagan religion or part of the body of Christ.

Your honesty is appreciated.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"I have power over Catholics, if they are of Jesus sir."

You have not. The Church has not sent you.

"You just failed the test, as to weather Catholicism is a pagan religion or part of the body of Christ."

The Church does not claim to be PART OF the Body of Christ, but to BE the Body of Christ - in Heaven, Purgatory, and on Earth.

Convenient for you to be devising the test, also.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Sir, you misunderstand, Jesus sent us!

The group you call the church, who teaches you to pray to Mary and make her a filthy pagan goddess instead of the blessed mother who bore Jesus, is not the Church, is not the body of Christ, but as you proved is a pagan group teaching to

Well, lets be simple, pray the rosary to Mary, repent and turn to Jesus, for only in Him is salvation found

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Look here, Jesus sent his Eleven. Since then, they and their successors are doing the sending.

Your last advise is actually good, since the rosary to Mary does involve repentance and refers to Jesus all the time.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Sir, Jesus sent over 500 at His ascension, you have been taught that this church, teaching you the filthy practice of praying to dead followers of God, is the Way.

it is a lie, I love you and in Christ call you out of that lie

Come to Jesus, for only in Him is salvation found

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Jesus sent over 500 at His ascension"

Reference? Matthew 28 says eleven just before Ascension.

But supposing you are right, over 500 were standing right behind the eleven and were also sent:

this does not change that we are dealing with a promise to the Church.

According to Matthew 28:20 you cannot have a Church of Christ which has not been around since Ascension day.

"you have been taught that this church, teaching you the filthy practice of praying to dead followers of God,"

You are still refusing to tell what you mean exactly by "praying to".

You are also calling "dead" people who live in Christ.

"Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:"
[John 11:25]

You are calling "dead" people who follow the Lamb:

"These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb:"
[Apocalypse 14:4]

You are calling "dead" people who are before the throne of God (and that is why they can intercede):

"And in their mouth there was found no lie; for they are without spot before the throne of God."
[Apocalypse 14:5]

Back to your words:

"it is a lie, I love you and in Christ call you out of that lie"

I don't think the Bible is a lie, nor that the Church Christ founded is misreading it. You are. I am no bishop, I do not claim authority over you, but I ask you to consider this and leave the lies of your human tradition, which is 500 years old or younger.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Sir, I am sorry you are following a false faith, but I tell you in Christ if you truly love and know Him, stop praying to anybody but God.

I am on the fence, it may be possible that the Catholic church has true followers of Jesus in it, but has just added wicked pagan practices on top of the truth.

In Christ I once again command you, only pray to God!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You cannot command Christians in the name of Christ.

Since you cannot trace your Church back to the eleven - or to the 500 standing behind them, possibly. Still waiting for your reference, hadn't time to check St Mark.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I can and must, as a follower of Christ it is my responsibility to teach and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them all that Jesus commanded.

May authority is not my own, but that of Christ.

You may not pray to any but God, if you do this wicked thing, Stop Now Today, never again spit on Jesus like this.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"I can and must, as a follower of Christ it is my responsibility to teach and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them all that Jesus commanded"

Those are Christ's words to the eleven, and to a Church existing all days. Yours hasn't.

You are also imprecise as to what you mean by "pray to".

We do NOT adore Mary, we do NOT adore St Peter. We honour and ask intercession.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am sorry Hans, you don't seem to be able to hear.

Let me back up, let us reason together, I know of one example in the Holy Bible where a man went to a dead follower of God and sought his help, sought his help to intercede with God for him.

This example is a very old one, of course no such thing exists in the New Testamament.

It is of Saul and Samuel.

This example is a very old one, of course no such thing exists in the New Testament. instead of seeking God? Please answer sir.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

First, Saul did not simply pray to Samuel, second, before Christ died, Samuel was still detained in Sheol, heaven was closed.

Saul tried to SUMMON Samuel by a witch.

VERY different.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Then Hans, show me one more example, one in the Holy Bible, of Holy followers of Jesus or God the Father seeking a dead follower of God to intercede for Him.

As a believer, I am responsible to search the scripture to see if what men say is true.

You, if you be a believer have that same responsibility.

Where else, in the Holy Bible do we see men seeking the dead?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Second, Saul never asked Samuel to intercede for him.

I just checked, you miscited the story to suit your argument.

THIRD the rich man was not rebuked for impossibility of Lazarus or Abraham hearing - but because the rich man, already damned, was across a chasm where he no more could be asking.

"As a believer, I am responsible to search the scripture to see if what men say is true. You, if you be a believer have that same responsibility."

Usually this is not our responsibility. Bishops do so for us.

You may be referring to Jews in Thessalonica who were searching the OT before deciding to become Christians - but that was the responsibility before conversion.

"Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so."
[Acts Of Apostles 17:11]

[Sorry, he may have referred to Bereans, not those in Thessalonica, my misreading. See next two comments.]

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl Have you never heard of the Beereans, have you never heard how they were more noble than the other churches planted by Paul, because they searched the scripture daily to see if what they were taught is true.

You can come up with no example in the bible of men seeking those who died in God for help with God, because it is a pagan practice that leads folks away from Jesus.

I am afraid for you Hans, I love you and want you to come to Jesus even today. You are hiding behind Bishops and people who teach you to make Mary, oh the horror this must bring to that good womans heart, into a pagan goddess by praying to her.

Please, commanding didn't help, I plead with you in the name of Jesus, stop this wicked thing!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Have you never heard of the Beereans, have you never heard how they were more noble than the other churches planted by Paul, because they searched the scripture daily to see if what they were taught is true."

You misread the story in Acts.

The Bereans were NOT yet a Church, NOT yet planted by Paul.

They were nobler than those in Thessalonica, namely Jews, and they were a SYNAGOGUE deciding whether to become Christians or not.

So they had to search before converting, and so did I before I became a Catholic. YEARS.

You are basically telling me, I have to start that work all over again, every time a Protestant challenges me, and that even not the kind of Protestant I was, but the kind of Protestant I was NOT.

You are an Anti-Catholic Evangelical. While I was more or less Evangelical, I was not Anti-Catholic and while I was Lutheran, even less so. Meaning, the slight Anticatholic prejudice which never amounted to actually being Anti-Catholic left me.

I thought I had a ground as a Swede to belong to a Church which thought it had a ground to leave the Catholic one in 1527. I looked at 1527 and I thought again. All the while doing so, I very much DID search the Scriptures, like the Bereans did.

And like the Bereans were verifying the claims of St Paul, I was verifying those of Catholic catechisms.

"You can come up with no example in the bible of men seeking those who died in God for help with God,"

Yes, I did. A refused request, but the refusal was for the man being already beyond help, and for his brothers being so too.

"because it is a pagan practice"

Which Paganism does it come from?

Greco-Romans honoured their dead in a very different fashion. I am a mythology geek and a Classics buff, so if you want to bluff about Greco-Roman Paganism, try someone else - or preferrably don't.

"that leads folks away from Jesus."

Not what the Church has found during 2000 years.

"You are hiding behind Bishops and people who teach you to make Mary, oh the horror this must bring to that good womans heart, into a pagan goddess by praying to her."

Hiding is really not the word.

And making Her into a "Pagan Goddess" isn't either. You already failed the request to answer "which Pagan goddess" we would be making Her into.

One more, in the case of Mary, we are not praying to someone who is dead, but to someone raised from the dead and assumed into Heaven, so Her body could share part of the fate of Her Sons (as to the Crucifixion, that is when a sword passed through Her soul, so She shared that too).

In case you want to hear where that is in the Bible, where do you see in the Bible that She either sinned or died and remained dead? It's not there.

But more, Apocalypse 12.

So, you are asking me to stop a wicked thing, in a way which is like asking me to stop beating my wife. If I haven't started beating my wife, I'd better not start instead. Same with turning the Blessed Virgin into a Pagan Goddess. I'd better never start that - and I didn't start it by becoming Catholic or by praying the Rosary.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl :( I am asking you to stop praying to Mary, or any other dead follower of God, and only pray to God.

If you cannot, well, I fear you don't even know Jesus and when you come to hear will hear the dreaded, depart from me, I never knew you.

Let me ask you, have you been baptized as a born again believer, or are you trusting that you don't need to obey Jesus and be baptized, it was enough for your parents to have that done for you when you were young?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

My parents actually had such a scruple.

I was baptised as a Lutheran at 15 and this after receiving Christ as my Lord and Saviour at age ten and before being received into the Catholic Church at age 20.

I did search the Scriptures very attentively under those years, not with apprehension, but with the eagerness of the Bereans.

Yes, the Catholic claims do match up with Scripture, and as to you, well, hasty judgement and refusing to even hear a correction about what I actually believe or do may be a sickness in you or may be a sin, for which you will have to answer as to why you did not chose the Church Christ had founded.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl So, I don't know much of religion, I know of Jesus.

I am happy to hear you did indeed obey Jesus and were baptized

What lead you into praying to the dead, can I ask?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What led you to despise praying to the deceased believers?

Misreading Saul and Samuel?

Saul did NOT ask Samuel to intercede, but to give advice.

I already told you, Lazarus and Abraham could be asked for intercession, it was the requests of the rich Pharisee that were impossible requests.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am a man who has spent many hours in the bible, and I know Gods will in this.

If it were His will for us to follow the pagans into ancestor worship, we would do so, he never mentioned it, and I know we must not.

Can you tell me, what lead you into thinking praying to the dead is fine?

Justin Piraino

What is the purpose of prayer?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"I am a man who has spent many hours in the bible,"

I believe you.

So did I, among other things when concerting to Catholicism.

"and I know Gods will in this."

Does not follow from previous, since you don't think it follows from my Bible studies when converting that I know God's will in this.

"If it were His will for us to follow the pagans into ancestor worship, we would do so, he never mentioned it, and I know we must not."

I am very well familiar with what Pagan Ancestor worship was. Neither praying TO saints in Heaven, nor praying FOR saints in Purgatory matches that.

"Can you tell me, what lead you into thinking praying to the dead is fine?"

Did, see above, reread.

And before you actually get what I am saying about the Rich Man and Lazarus and how Sheol is described and how intercession is described, leave off repetitive, impertinent and already answered questions.

Baxter Lane

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am sorry, you are hiding behind people who have imported pagan practices into the Way left by Jesus, and His blood.

maybe, I don't know, maybe you can still be on the Way while following such pagan practices

but I fear for your soul that you cannot, I love you Hans, and I beg you, forsake praying to the dead, and only seek God.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Before you call a practise pagan, prove it corresponds to a pagan rite and prove it contradicts the Bible.

Also, this has gone on two hours.**

Also, you are dodging my questions, presuming I must always answer yours.

That is not how you do debates.

Note *

The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori (Online) and other Titles on the Most Blessed Virgin Mary
http://www.themostholyrosary.com/catholic-books-virgin-mary.htm

The Glories of Mary
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories.htm#INTRO

Since I could not find the phrase I added in the Introduction, I sent an email ...

Get a grip in prologue of Glories of Mary. That is impossible. Mary will always lead you to Jesus.

So, I think the phrase was in Alphonsus, and sent an email to people who can find it ...

Note **

I checked.