Neanderthals as Elves and Trolls and as Pre-Flood

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Neanderthal's Language · Creation vs. Evolution : Neanderthal - speculations and certainty · HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS : Neanderthal Pre- or Post-Flood? Me and Roger Pearlman ... · Neanderthal Flute · Neanderthals as Elves and Trolls and as Pre-Flood · Elves, Trolls, Pre-Flood - Continued

The premiss in the following that Neanderthals sounded as talking with speech handicaps, I did change my mind on. I think Neanderthals may well have sounded fairly normal. They were certainly capable of normal purposeful behaviour.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

July 21 at 10:24 AM

Supposing Neanderthals in pre-Flood era were the real both elves and orcs, and suppose they had a very high larynx and therefore high voices, and a reduced palet of vowels, and supposing they spoke a version of Hebrew - any hebraist who'd like to work out a Neanderthal Hebrew for pre-Flood times?

I would not be able to appreciate it, since I can't speak or read Hebrew, but I suppose some I know who do, would.

Thomas Harris

Just a bit of curiosity... mainly because the Elflang I'm working with also has Hebraic influences along the southern migratory route... In your elflang, what is the reasoning behind Hebraic languages influencing your tongue?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• 1) It is not my elflang, it is a proposal to make one;
• 2) Neanderthals were pre-Flood and probable relations to Mrs Japheth, therefore if they were BOTH elves AND trolls/goblins/orcs, the memory of them could have continued in her descendants;
• 3) Before Babel, Hebrew was the only language, and its phonematic structure is such that an articulatory handocap attributed to Neanderthals would not have made total havoc of phonematic distinctions with much payoff.

[link to previous parts, except Neanderthal Flute]

I

Eric Bowman

High larynx & high voices? Now you have me picturing Neanderthal sounding like Elmo.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Especially with his high central rounded Swedish Norwegian vowels ...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am sorry, I thought you meant the Swedish cook.

II

Anthony Docimo

got some bad news for you regarding the Flood

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Anthony Docimo - such as it killed a lot of people?

I know.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl it killed nobody.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

It killed off all pure Neanderthals, we have no one around with Neanderthal Y chromosome or Neanderthal mitochondria.

Dito for Heildebergians / Antecessors / Denisovans who seem to have been all the same race.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl how would you know? given we don't know what their X and Y chromosomes looklike

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Neanderthal Y chromosome genome has been sequenced by Svante Pääbo.

So has their mitochondrial DNA.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl so, we have one Y chromosome? great start... (unless all neandertals were so massively inbred they only had one Y...which the fossil record does not support)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I don't think you get the point. Our Y chromosome varies within certain parameters that exclude the Y chromosome (or Y chromosome genome) found by Svante Pääbo in the Neanderthal genome.

They do not descend from "Y chromosome Adam" - that is from Noah.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl why isn't Adam our Adam?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Have you any clue of human genetics and how mutations pile up in diverse lineages, of which the Y chromosome is purely male, as the mitochondrial is purely female?

Women don't have Y chromosomes.

Men do have mitochondria, but only get them from mother, never from father.

Now, there is a concept of "Y chromosome Adam" and "mitochondrial Eve" (not identic to Biblical Adam and Eve, in my view.

It is the last man who all living males get their Y chromosome from, and the last woman who all people get their mitochondria from. By defintion, this is before the first mutation dividing modern populations.

AND the Y chromosome and mitochondria of Neanderthals were before those / beside those.

It's a bit like isoglosses. Those of Nordic languages do not support them descending from Proto-West-Germanic (if that existed) since they did not lose the final -z but turned it to -R.

III

Thomas Harris

The Great Flood is a common mythological theme. I would point out that, even modernly, Hebrew has evolved as a language. It is part of a while set of Afro-Semitic languages. That doesn't detract from the mythod of your language, however. The concept of a Neanderthal phonology in language is fascinating, too.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

" is a common mythological theme"

In other words, some likelihood of being true.

Thomas Harris

Some likelihood of most cultures encountering floods at some point or another.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

How great is the likelihood of each encourntering a different global one?

Thomas Harris

For ancient humans, a "global" flood would likely be one experienced over a large region. When they later compared takes with other people, the story probably grew as they encountered what we're originally separate tales, without regard to time frame. The logical question would be is that, with us currently having 2/3 of the planet covered in water, if the planet has at one time been covered to the last mountaintop with a flood, what happened to the water that would have had to have receded?

Anthony Docimo

Thomas Harris Nat.Geo.Channel tried making a disaster special series, and one episode asked how people would handle a world-covering flood in the next few centuries...which required figuring out how to get enough water to actually cover everything (hint: even melting every bit of ice and snow on the planet didn't help enough)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"For ancient humans, a "global" flood would likely be one experienced over a large region."

Any large region would have had borders of land around it.

Hence, it would not have seemed as a global one.

"When they later compared takes with other people, the story probably grew as they encountered what we're originally separate tales, without regard to time frame."

While chronology is among the first victims of a garbled tradition, we are dealing with centuries or millennia - not with the probable (on uniformitarian views) time distance between two large regional floods.

" The logical question would be is that, with us currently having 2/3 of the planet covered in water, if the planet has at one time been covered to the last mountaintop with a flood, what happened to the water that would have had to have receded?"

If you hadn't checked, Creationists, we do have an answer.

Mountains were less high, seas less deep, after the Flood the water receded into deeper seas from higher land of which our mountains are the bulges.

"which required figuring out how to get enough water to actually cover everything (hint: even melting every bit of ice and snow on the planet didn't help enough)"

See, God is never more destroying THE WHOLE EARTH by water.

Apart from rainbow, there are Alps, Andes, Himalayas and several somwhat lower regions which cannot be actually flooded.

Thomas Harris

You are going to believe, however the science as we have it is at a variance with the science as we have it. There is correspondingly no explanation as to where so much water may have drained. That being said, there is a morality lesson, actually several, behind the flood myths. Those reasons are ready why the Flood narrative is perennial, and will continue to be.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"There is correspondingly no explanation as to where so much water may have drained."

Didn't you read?

• A) there wasn't so much water during Flood, since mountains were flatter and seas shallower;
• B) at end of Flood, tectonic movements deepened seas and raised up mountains and that is why the water went into the now deeper seas.

Of course, if you imagine Mt Everest and Mariana Trench as same height and depth as pre-Flood, you won't have a theory, but that is not how we Creationists do it ...

"That being said, there is a morality lesson, actually several, behind the flood myths."

Actually, the largest difference between Genesis and some Sumerian and Akkadian versions is in opposed morality.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl of course God can't destroy the whole world by water -- flooding the surface of the Earth, no matter how high the mountains are, is like painting an onion: it only touches one or two thin layers of the whole.

also, what drove the mountains to abruptly become higher post-Flood? (or did they? one of your posts says they did, another post says they didn't)

>opposed morality wha? nope, the Noah figure in the Sumerian and Akkadian versions also was favored by a god.

Hans-Georg Lundahl >Any large region would have had borders of land around it.
>Hence, it would not have seemed as a global one.
if I live in Broze Age Central Europe or Mesopotamia, and my kingdom floods, as do my neighboring kingdoms...do you honestly think I'm going to say "well, I'd better see if Norway and India are submerged as well?" or do you think I'll say "yep, this is the drowning of all the world"?

or are you pissed at the Roman and Greek writers for saying that Caesar or Alexander conquered the world - yet went nowhere near the Americas or subSaharan Africa?

Thomas Harris

By what we know of the life of mountains, they do not start low-lying, but younger mountains tend to be larger, higher, steeper like the Himalayas and Rockies and become shorter as erosion occurs... And none of them rising and falling will be uniform with others. Again, what we understand of geology doesn't match your theory. The story isn't present for science, however, but for ethical teaching.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Anthony Docimo which of my posts said mountains did NOT become higher after Flood?

Being a man who is favoured by Enki who wants to save men from his angry brother Enlil with a headache is totally different from being favoured by the same God who judges evil as evil and favours one because he is good.

"if I live in Broze Age Central Europe or Mesopotamia, and my kingdom floods, as do my neighboring kingdoms...do you honestly think I'm going to say "well, I'd better see if Norway and India are submerged as well?" or do you think I'll say "yep, this is the drowning of all the world"?"

If you don't reach an edge which is NOT flooded, how do you survive to tell the story?

A Classic in the context would be the Black Sea Flood - some evolutionists consider it the real life model for the Flood.

So, all of what is now Black Sea was a deep valley and it got flooded. Water obviously ended somewhere and if anyone lived in the valley, they got to the edges - and could see the Flood was not over all of the Earth.

I've heard carbon date for Black Sea Flood is 6000 BC, which puts it after Babel, perhaps still in the days of Peleg and part of what divided the whole earth (I suppose he could have lived to see both confusion of tongues when very small, sinking of Atlantis and cutting off of Americas when somewhat bigger and Black Sea Flood when old).

Thomas Harris "they do not start low-lying, but younger mountains tend to be larger, higher, steeper like the Himalayas and Rockies and become shorter as erosion occurs..."

As far as we know, Himalayas and Rockies and everything like that can be a post-Flood feature.

God either does a new act or reuses one of those leading to Flood to do some serious tectonic wrinkling.

Bonus, the wet ground gets more vertical, meaning it drains off and dries out faster.

Your other observations are about current theories of how and when diverse mountains formed, which theories do not take the Bible into account.

Thomas Harris

You are correct, they do not take the Bible into account.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl if I don't survive and reach the unflooded lands of India and Norway, how do I transmit the story? (that is what you asked, yes?)...simple: same way as Noah: I wait for the flooding to receede...same as the Katrina victims in the US or flood victims anywhere else in the world today.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Look, Katrina victims could watch landmarks.

They could watch ground through the waters.

They did not think just bc New Orleans was flooded that Appalachians or Rockies were too.

Black Sea Flood did not recede, there is still the Black Sea, and that is one I was talking about.

Thomas Harris

So your theory is solely about the flooding of the area now occupied by the Black Sea? I've heard that they before.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The other type of Floods would be too shallow.

Black Sea Flood you reach a shore, Katrina type too shallow, leaves world wide.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl assuming you were *trying* to reach a shore during a massive flood...boats back then were circular coracles.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Look here. In a massive Flood remaining in place, as Black Sea flood, whether you try to reach shore or not, the only survival is actually reaching it.

In a Katrina type Flood, you see land through the fairly shallow water and you see landmarks.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl there are plenty of valleys in the US, Britain, and elsewhere, where entire cities and towns have been flooded (and haven't unflooded)...and you can't see the landmarks or buildings from the water surface.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

In a flooded valley, you can see surrounding mountains during Flood.

And when the thing hasn't unflooded, you need to get to shore, outside flood area to survive;

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl really? because I've been in a lot of valleys that were big enough that nobody could see the surrounding mountains.

and if you don't know where shore is, how do you get there? (and if you genuinely believe everything is flooded, why do you bother paddling?)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, would you like to share where, so I can check?

And, one more, would you like to state where in the Old World such a scenario could apply, esp. near Ancient Middle East?

And if the valley was too big to see surrounding mountains, how did it get flooded?

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl how did it get flooded? IT RAINED.

Hans-Georg Lundahl of the top of my head, I know it happened in England, Turkey, Egypt...and in a region as flood-prone as the Fertile Cresent...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Of the top of your head : where and when in England, Turkey, Egypt and Fertile Crescent?

I mean, Fertile Crescent as a whole is a bit too wide to contain a regional Flood.

The problem is not how the water came to a broad valley, the problem is, if the valley was not narrow, how come it didn't drain off before becoming a Flood (with the criteria you stated that landmarks on the ground are under water and mountains surrounding valey too far off to see)?

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl if the Fertile Cresent doesn't count as a region, then please define "regional".

also, the Nasser Dam, Egypt; almost any Turkish and English dam that required the evacuation of villages and cities.

and not all valleys are narrow...yet they do not stop being valleys capable of being overwhelmed by water.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

My problem is not whether Fertile Crescent is a region.

My problem is how you get walls around a whole valley in all of it so the valley can be Flooded?

As far as I know Fertile Crescent is not bounded on all sides by mountain.

"and not all valleys are narrow"

Less narrow, less chance of valley being bounded on all sides.

You still have no exact examples.

And the Black Sea Flood (in my view a post-Flood regional Flood) was flooded, sure enough, but the Flood was never receding. Anyone caught in it EITHER reached the shore OR died.

Anthony Docimo

oh for f sake...low-lying ground doesn't always need mountains per se - just higher ground. for someone who wants us to consider Neandertals one of the Adamic Races, its strange that you're having difficulty on comprehension.

I cited Lake Nasser, as well as mentioned the multiple damed-ed up valleys of England, Turkey, and the USA.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Anthony Docimo ".low-lying ground doesn't always need mountains per se - just higher ground"

I have no problem with that.

Except, if the higher ground all around is LESS pointed than mountains, the Flood is not likely to end - see Black Sea - which means in order to survive and tell a story, you need a shore to get to.

Forgot Nasser dam ... but isn't it manmade and therefore one of the higher "grounds" around it a deliberate construction?

"almost any Turkish and English dam that required the evacuation of villages and cities."

Or Spanish, I have seen the one at Jaca.

Now, again, the "higher ground" at one end is a dam.

And, it is NOT so big you can't see landmarks from middle of the dam.

"for someone who wants us to consider Neandertals one of the Adamic Races, its strange that you're having difficulty on comprehension."

You are free to your opinion, I have stated mine.

You are free to call Neanderthal and Cro Magnon children "hybrids" and I'll stick to half caste.

You have not so far cited one single flooding which could realistically have:

• BOTH been so big a coracle floating above it couldn't see shores or landmarks beyond
• AND so temporary one could survive on top until it abated
• AND NOT made by other men who could have told the story of the dam.

Anthony Docimo

if the water isn't likely to go away, then how do the Flooded Forests of the Amazon only have fish in the branches for *half* the year? and how do Katrina and other flooded cities and farmlands manage to not be waterlogged forever and ever, once they get hit with too much water once?

the dam itself at Lake Nasser is artificial, the rest is not. (and the higher ground at one end is a dam in the easy to remember examples, not in the only examples)

please stop moving the goalposts -- you asked for instances of valleys that flooded, then for valleys that had no visible edges or bottoms, and now you're asking for temporary ones and nonmanmade ones.

just admit that you're pleading special circumstance, or I'll have to ask you for references and citations proving this Great Flood Over All The World you're claiming. (and the Bible doesn't count)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"if the water isn't likely to go away, then how do the Flooded Forests of the Amazon only have fish in the branches for *half* the year?"

Flooded Forests are likely to have landmarks visible. = NOT your scenario.

"and how do Katrina and other flooded cities and farmlands manage to not be waterlogged forever and ever, once they get hit with too much water once?"

New Orleans under Katrina had landmarks visible = NOT your scenario.

I am not moving the goalposts. I am keeping together the criteria which you need together for someone to suffer a Flood which was not universal and to think (after surviving it) that it was.

You keep shuffling between one criterium and the other, always forgetting your last one while answering the problem with it by some other example.

"the dam itself at Lake Nasser is artificial, the rest is not"

Each time that a dam is built (you mentioned more than just Lake Nasser) it is manmade.

"references and citations proving this Great Flood Over All The World you're claiming. (and the Bible doesn't count)"

So, the Bible doesn't count for non-Christians.

I'd say EVERY Flood legend around the world does count.

As a reference, if not in each case an infallible one.

If "a reference" is all you want, the Genesis account should be as fine as Deucalion and Pyrrha or Norse myth or Peruvian or Siberian myths.

If Bible is even lower than these, you are biassed against the Bible.

Also, in fact, at least somewhat, against universal human tradition, even outside the Bible.

Thomas Harris

Just a note, you're still dealing with biblical mythology. I'd like to hear more about the language you are theorising about.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl every dam is manmade? boy are the beavers going to be pissed.

I'm answering your questions and the questions you dodge - as below. (also, not all the flooded cities in the US and elsewhere needed a dam - just plenty of water)

you asked how the water level could possibly drop -- so I mentioned the Flooded Forests....landmarks don't matter as to whether or not a place can drain the water.

you're engaged in whats called Special Pleading - you ask for an answer about how your scenario deals with one thing, but then say that it isn't applicable because the answer doesn't apply to a different aspect of the scenario. (by which logic, your Flood scenario is moot because the ark was supposed to be circular)

I'm not biased against the Bible - I'm asking you for outside references, so yes I should have said none of the references could be any mythical source.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thomas Harris If you noted my status, you'd know that, so would I.

Quoting self:

// any hebraist who'd like to work out a Neanderthal Hebrew for pre-Flood times?

I would not be able to appreciate it, since I can't speak or read Hebrew, but I suppose some I know who do, would. //

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Anthony Docimo "you asked how the water level could possibly drop -- so I mentioned the Flooded Forests....landmarks don't matter as to whether or not a place can drain the water."

The problem is you are at each moment pleading for ONE of the criteria you need being possible.

I am asking you to provide a scenario for ALL you need.

Beaver dams were not the issue, and they are damming too little water to matter. In THIS context.

Why do you need *huge* areas flooded? Otherwise landmarks around will be visible, no way to imagine the flood was universal.

Why do you need water to *drain* ? Otherwise you need to get to the coast to tell the story, no way for survivors to imagine the flood was universal.

Why are *both* (outside manmade dams) difficult? Because the wider area flooded, the wider obstacles for the water you need. In Amazonas, I suppose the trees are the obstacles providing half year floods - also very visible landmarks, also no way for a survivor to take the flood as world wide.

Why are *manmade* dams out of play? Whoever made and drained the dam would be mightier and better placed to impose the story than whoever survided the dam flooding.

You are pleading, in reality for a difficult combination, but you are each time pleading only for one of the things in it.

Anthony Docimo "yes I should have said none of the references could be any mythical source."

Texts you don't count as mythical start with Ebla tablets.

Long texts, not protoliterate, that is.

And in my recalibration of carbon 14, Ebla tablets are less than 2000 years BC when starting. A bit after Joseph.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thomas Harris Could we take this in a separate subthread? [see VI on next part]

Anthony Docimo

why do the Elba Tablets not count as mythical?

>You are pleading, in reality for a difficult combination, but you are each time pleading only for one of the things in it.

No, I am answering *your* fecking questions, *as*you*ask*them*.

you asked "but how can a valley fill up if it isn't narrow?" So I answered that.

You asked "but how can water drain out of a place?" implying that water, once arrived in a place, can never leave. So I answered that.

So I'm going to play by your rules now: The Great Biblical Flood never happened - the Bible itself says so, in that it gives two accounts of what happened. Also, it contradicts other Flood Myths.

ps: beavers have been known to dam up lakes that can be seen from space - if you're on a boat in the middle of *taht*, you're not going to see land in any direction.

Hans-Georg Lundahl this is a separate subthread.

Hans-Georg Lundahl there used to be a question on exams, that went like this: "Define 'universe' and give two examples." (or "define platypus...") That is, in essense, what you are doing -- you are shooting down examples and things that match one or two aspects of a Great Flood (shot on the basis that they don't match every aspect), and in the process, you are making me *less* inclined to believe in a Great Flood, because you are convincing me that the only way to believe in a Great Flood is to be in a Great Flood...that a person cannot mentally conceptualize what a Great Flood is (lake nasser + amazon flooded forest + etc = Flood) because nothing short of a Great Flood is like a Great Flood in any way, you're saying.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"No, I am answering *your* fecking questions, *as*you*ask*them*."

And in each answer forgetting to include how what your previous answer stated applies to the new answer.

Anthony Docimo "the Bible itself says so, in that it gives two accounts of what happened."

Nice, how about stating how the accounts contradict, if they do?

Anthony Docimo "You asked "but how can water drain out of a place?" implying that water, once arrived in a place, can never leave. So I answered that."

In context the question was applicable to when water was flooding so widely that the ramparts around are fairly solid.

Amazonas could have counted if the obstacle - semi-porous - had not been trees, therefore visible landmark.

You have a great ingenuity for each problem separately, but so far no scenario meeting all problems together.

Oh, wait ... "beavers have been known to dam up lakes that can be seen from space - if you're on a boat in the middle of *taht*, you're not going to see land in any direction."

Could be an item ... provide a link to story?

Anthony Docimo As to "this is a separate subthread," I was adressing Harris who wanted to discuss my language proposal in OP. This subthread has now been pretty much dedicated to your debunking of mythical accounts as evidence for universal Flood, and more precisely, because a large Flood would have sufficed.

Beavers built a dam, lake was visible from space (if there had been rockets or to angels), someone caught in the middle thought all the world was flooded, beavers' dam broke so he survived without reaching the shore, former lake bottom was muddy for how long? How did a wind quickly dry it, if it was not a miracle?

And, WHERE could this have happened so that the story could have spread in the Old World from there?

Also, how are beavers' dams sufficiently deep to make lake bottom invisible from surface?

I don't think beavers build much more than 30 or 60 feet high ... and if it was deeper somewhere in the middle, it must have been a lake independently of beavers' dam before and after flood.

No, that scenario is also not very good.

Anthony Docimo "because you are convincing me that the only way to believe in a Great Flood is to be in a Great Flood...that a person cannot mentally conceptualize what a Great Flood is (lake nasser + amazon flooded forest + etc = Flood) because nothing short of a Great Flood is like a Great Flood in any way, you're saying."

I am saying any less than world wide Flood would have been

• EITHER physically impossible
• OR impossible to go on taking for world wide once you had survived it and done a little basic fact checking.

You have given scenarii which are not physically impossible, but where someone surviving would not have taken the past experience for a world wide Flood - as we see in so many Flood legends.

And you have outlined conditions for taking a non-world wide Flood as world wide which do not correspond to these physically possible scenarii, and in so far as you have given any scenarii, they seem to me to imply the physically IMpossible.

Anthony Docimo "why do the Elba Tablets not count as mythical?"

They are diplomacy from the days when Amorrheans were mighty.

King so and so of Ebla invites the new king of Babylon (which Amorrheans founded some way further East) for a dinner party to discuss who is vassal of who and who will marry whose daughter.

THAT sort of thing.

Sure, they are narrative references which will NOT include the Flood as worldwide, for the simple reason they were post-Flood.

Unless you BOTH take the Flood as 2400 BC (as Kent Hovind does) and carbon dates for Ebla tablets (not the clay, but some surrounding stuff) as accurately reflecting they started in 2400 BC (as uniformitarians do).

I do neither, I take Flood as 2957 BC (carbon date 40 000 BP, as per Neanderthal démise) and the carbon date 2400 BC as reflecting a real date of later than 1700 BC.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl "if they do" contradict? off the top of my head:

• length of time it was raining, vs how long the world was flooded.
• number of each animal (one account said a single number for everything, the other account said two numbers - one for clean and one for unclean)

Hans-Georg Lundahl actually, not all of the trees are the same height, so some naturalists and show hosts (like Jack Hanna if you need a name) have run motorboats through parts of the Flooded Forest, without seeing any trees or anything other than the backs of dolphins and manatees.

could I provide a link...to what, half of PBS's and the BBC's documentaries? :)

Hans-Georg Lundahl "You have given scenarii which are not physically impossible, but where someone surviving would not have taken the past experience for a world wide Flood - as we see in so many Flood legends."

except for two problems:

• 1. pretty much all the Flood legends don't actually say "global flood"...they say "flood" or "great flood"
• 2. look at the people who were called the rulers of the world - "I am Assurnassurpal, Lord of the Four Corners" (aka ruler of all the world)...though you wouldn't say he ruled every continent.
  
  .....or Alexander The Great, credited with conquering the world.

Hans-Georg Lundahl "I am saying any less than world wide Flood would have been
"* EITHER physically impossible "

....which makes an actually worldwide Flood physically impossible.

"* OR impossible to go on taking for world wide once you had survived it and done a little basic fact checking."

Fact-checking?? and exactly how do you do that IN THE BRONZE AGE? they couldn't call up someone in the other side of the world - or even someone on the other end of their continent - and ask them "hey, dude, did you just have a flood?"

>"They are diplomacy from the days when Amorrheans were mighty."

the who?

and the Neandertals were still around and kicking in the 30,000-35,000 year range, so your Flood is oddly placed. (is it like those species that survived the Permian Extinction, yet failed to make it all the way to the Jurassic?)

>You have a great ingenuity for each problem separately, but so far no scenario meeting all problems together."

because all of them together would be A Great Flood...and God promised not to do that again. I thought that was obvious. :)

"Beavers built a dam, lake was visible from space (if there had been rockets or to angels),"

I'm beginning to think you're trolling. you asked for artificial non-manmade lakes that were big enough to not see the sides...I replied that some were big enough to be seen from space........NOT because you have to see them from there, but because YOU CAN'T SEE THE EDGES ANYWHERE WHEN YOU'RE AFLOAT!

>"And in each answer forgetting to include how what your previous answer stated applies to the new answer."

normally, in human and neandertal conversation, new questions want answers that apply to the new question. if I ask you "can mammals lay eggs?" and my follow-up question is "what birds are flightless?" you might try to answer the second with an answer that applies to both...but thats not what I'm asking for.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"length of time it was raining,"

chapter 7 : 40 days
chapter 8 : flood gates of heaven were shut up and the rain was restrained

solution : initial rain for 40 days, later more rains keeping up the water level, chapter 8 speaks of when they were stopped

"vs how long the world was flooded."

And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.
And the waters returned from off the earth going and coming: and they began to be abated after a hundred and fifty days.

Not a contradiction, but identity. Waters prevailing and waters beginning to be abated are two different stages.

"number of each animal"

One can solve it by one account stating initial arrival of animals and another including an extra arrival of clean ones.

Or one can solve it by first account meaning "at least two".

"not all of the trees are the same height, so some naturalists and show hosts (like Jack Hanna if you need a name) have run motorboats through parts of the Flooded Forest"

I wonder how many places in the Old World could look the same.

"pretty much all the Flood legends don't actually say "global flood"...they say "flood" or "great flood""

Apart from Chinese one, I don't think so. "Global" is not a word much used in old sources, before it was settled knowledge the earth was round.

"look at the people who were called the rulers of the world - "I am Assurnassurpal, Lord of the Four Corners" (aka ruler of all the world)...though you wouldn't say he ruled every continent. .....or Alexander The Great, credited with conquering the world."

Great point - if you can show me a scenario in which Assurnassurpal's or Alexander's Empires could have been temporarily flooded.

Because that wide land can be called the "world" doesn't mean a narrow valley in the Alps can.

"which makes an actually worldwide Flood physically impossible."

No. Flooding all of the globe is the ONLY way in which you could Flood all of Assurnassurpal's or all of Alexander's Empire.

"Fact-checking?? and exactly how do you do that IN THE BRONZE AGE?"

You come down with a boat after a local Flood resides. You step over mud for hours and days - and come to a somewhat higher place which is not muddy. THEN you meet some other people who were not themselves flooded.

If they caused the flood by building a dam, they meet you and won't be impressed with your believing the world was flooded when they were standing at the other side of the dam.

Easy as pie. Any physically possible and non-global Flood would have left fact checking a very local business, before you came out of the Flooded zone.

"the who?"

Wikipedia : Amorites
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorites

Amorrhéens in French made me think it was Amorrheans in English. Some did the opposite error, translating "Amorrhites" in French.

"and the Neandertals were still around and kicking in the 30,000-35,000 year range, so your Flood is oddly placed."

When is the latest Neanderthal carbon dated to?

Either way, a carbon level at 2957 BC which will misdate to 35 000 BP is not very far from one which will misdate to 40 000 BP. Both are very low levels.

"is it like those species that survived the Permian Extinction, yet failed to make it all the way to the Jurassic?"

These aren't carbon dated. There is no real proof that the Permian was earlier than the Jurassic, both can have been ecosystems of diverse types.

"normally, in human and neandertal conversation, new questions want answers that apply to the new question."

Normally, when two questions belong together, one requires first answer to stay applicable to second answer.

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl the Permian and Jurassic aren't carbon-dated? fossils from them ARE ALWAYS carbon-dated. thats how we know the Permian came first.

(but then, I suppose you and your grandfather had your boyhoods at the same time as well)

Hans-Georg Lundahl >"You come down with a boat after a local Flood resides. You step over mud for hours and days - and come to a somewhat higher place which is not muddy. THEN you meet some other people who were not themselves flooded."

so, rather than build a new home, keep your family from starving, dying from thirst or exposure...you'd just go wandering until you ran out of land to walk on? (and probably die of thirst or starvation or exposure in the process)

>"Great point - if you can show me a scenario in which Assurnassurpal's or Alexander's Empires could have been temporarily flooded." Sure I can WHEN YOU FINALLY START LISTENING.

>"Or one can solve it by first account meaning "at least two"."

Well of course "two of all animals" means "at least two"....thats why when your doctor tells you to take two pills, and you take at least two pills....oh wait, thats called an overdose.

>"initial rain for 40 days, later more rains keeping up the water level,"

so, in other words, when it says it rained for 40 days, it lied?

>"And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days."

nope, thats not 40.

Hans-Georg Lundahl >"I wonder how many places in the Old World could look the same."

And I'm wondering how you found out about the Flood or the Neandertals, given your utter terror at looking things up with libraries, google, or any other method. Seriously, not even thirty seconds on Google showed me "The Wet" in Australia, and the Okovango in Africa - imagine what you could find IF YOU FECKING TRIED!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"so, rather than build a new home, keep your family from starving, dying from thirst or exposure...you'd just go wandering until you ran out of land to walk on? (and probably die of thirst or starvation or exposure in the process)"

Come on, some context.

Flood just resided, no miraculous wind drying land in your scenario, the boat is on mud, it's where you are that is dangerous.

"Well of course "two of all animals" means "at least two"....thats why when your doctor tells you to take two pills, and you take at least two pills....oh wait, thats called an overdose."

All texts are not medical prescriptions. Also, there can have been "new arrangements" after Noah asked "wait a minute, I'd like to sacrifice a livestock afterwards, and if there are just two on the ark, I'd make the kind go extinct" - and God replying "OK, take seven (individuals or couples) of the pure ones, here are five/twelve more". You cherrypicked the interpretation which would imply inexactitude.

"so, in other words, when it says it rained for 40 days, it lied?"

No, the 40 days were continuous rain.

"nope, thats not 40."

The 150 days come after the 40.

"And I'm wondering how you found out about the Flood or the Neandertals, given your utter terror at looking things up with libraries, google, or any other method."

Thanks for adding seriously, next sentence. It was a joke, right?

"Seriously, not even thirty seconds on Google showed me "The Wet" in Australia, and the Okovango in Africa - imagine what you could find IF YOU FECKING TRIED!"

What was the search?

I'll look up The Wet and Okovango, of course.

"the Permian and Jurassic aren't carbon-dated?"

Not routinely, no.

"fossils from them ARE ALWAYS carbon-dated."

Make it hardly ever. Only creationists, as in Young Earth Creationists bother to carbon date Permian or Jurassic fossils.

"thats how we know the Permian came first."

No, we don't know it, and that's not how your scientists argue to think they know it either.

Make a google search on "geologic column".

Anthony Docimo

Hans-Georg Lundahl >" Also, there can have been "new arrangements" after Noah asked "wait a minute, I'd like to sacrifice a livestock afterwards, and if there are just two on the ark, I'd make the kind go extinct" - and God replying "OK, take seven (individuals or couples) of the pure ones, here are five/twelve more". You cherrypicked the interpretation which would imply inexactitude."

*snickers* you fool - thats why there are no more unicorns...its not that they missed the ark, but that they were the sacrifice. (its not unheard of: the Coat Of Many Colors was one of the only two Leviathans)

>"Only creationists, as in Young Earth Creationists bother to carbon date Permian or Jurassic fossils."

alllllright then, I'll ask you what I asked the last person who claimed that sort of thing: how many centuries have your children been dead?

I'm not going to use an adult website, because that might have words of too great a difficulty for you...so here's a simpler explanation:

DETERMINING AGE OF ROCKS AND FOSSILS
FRANK K. MCKINNEY
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/fosrec/McKinney.html

>"What was the search?"

It doesn't matter, because I found answers EVERY TIME I TRIED.

>"Come on, some context.
>"Flood just resided, no miraculous wind drying land in your scenario, the boat is on mud, it's where you are that is dangerous."

nope. the Flood just ended, so there is no food except what you have in your Ark. why are you going to abandon your family and your ark and the animals and plants that GOD ENTRUSTED TO YOU...to go slogging through untold miles and kilometers of mud??

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"*snickers* you fool - thats why there are no more unicorns...its not that they missed the ark, but that they were the sacrifice. (its not unheard of: the Coat Of Many Colors was one of the only two Leviathans)"

Triceratops horridus may or may not have chewed the cud, but had too many digits per foot to be pure. That's the unicorn and the monster in what is now Tarascon may have been a Triceratops or a Stegosaurus.

Leviathan would have been a mega croc.

"alllllright then, I'll ask you what I asked the last person who claimed that sort of thing: how many centuries have your children been dead?"

None. I don't have any yet. I do not know how this is relevant to Permian and Jurassic not being (conventionally) carbon dated.

Permian and Jurassic are thought to be more than 100 000 years ago, conventionally.

On Carbon 14 Dating Calculator
https://www.math.upenn.edu/~deturck/m170/c14/carbdate.html

I put in 100 000 in years, push calculate and get Carbon 14 left = NaN percent

Confer 100 years, 1000 years, 10 000 years: 98.798, 88.606, 29.829 percent carbon 14 left.

Permian 299–252 million years ago (rounding).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian
Jurassic 201–145 million years ago (also rounding)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic

145 million > 100 000. NOT carbon dated.

Only creationists, who think Permian and Jurassic are from the Flood are likely to carbon date Permian and Jurassic fossils.

"I'm not going to use an adult website, because that might have words of too great a difficulty for you..."

Thanks for that one ...

"so here's a simpler explanation"

Have you searched the page for phrases "carbon 14", "carbon dating" or "carbon dated"? They are NOT THERE.

I copy pasted entire text to a note pad and did a search. I did find by eyesight U(some isotope) and Pb(some isotope). That method is not carbon dating and cannot be checked for relative accuracy against history for very recent dates, unlike carbon dating.

"It doesn't matter, because I found answers EVERY TIME I TRIED."

Look, I was asking you what was the search. If I search "Galileo and Lepanto" I bet I will not find it.

" the Flood just ended, so there is no food except what you have in your Ark. why are you going to abandon your family and your ark and the animals and plants that GOD ENTRUSTED TO YOU...to go slogging through untold miles and kilometers of mud??"

I was not talking about the Biblical scenario, but about the scenario you propose instead.

If there was just a natural flood, if it ended so the one on a for instance coracle came to what had been covered by water, there would have been little food left and walking across mud would have been the way (if any at all) to survive.

Not to mention that sooner or later they would be meeting people from outside the flooded area.