Pius XI, Dollfuss, Mussolini - a Debate with a Wholehearted Admirer of the Latter

1) HGL's F.B. writings : Pius XI, Dollfuss, Mussolini - a Debate with a Wholehearted Admirer of the Latter, 2) New blog on the kid : Once Again : Austrofascist and Nazi is NOT the Same Thing.

Background

I had on a FB photo commented that Italian Fascism was better before introducing in 1938 Carta della Razza (before which moment there was no at least officially or directly racist policy, and that means the beginnings of Italian Fascism were in that respect better than later. Perhaps a few more things. I get a PM:

JW to HGL

April 12th, 1:34pm

On Benito Mussolini being a great Catholic and Italian hero Look these are some of the things that Benito Mussolini did for Italy! :

• Mussolini ordered crucifixes to be put back in classrooms and courtrooms.
  
  
• He made religious instruction mandatory in schools.
  
  
• He brought respect back to the Church and to religion in a time when anti-clericalism dominated Italy.
  
  
• He eliminated Freemasonry.
  
  
• He eliminated the Mafia. "By the beginning of the Second World War, the Mafia was restricted to a few isolated and scattered groups and could have been completely wiped out... “- Michael Pantaleone
  
  
• He decreased crime.
  
  
• He created food packages for the poor.
  
  
• He oversaw the Italianization of Italian territories.
  
  [Including of what he called Alto Adige and I call Südtirol]
  
  
• He brought fear and respect back to Italy, after Italy had been treated as second-class by the English, French, and Austrians.
  
  [By Austrians? Here is some confusion. Austro-Hungarian Empire could have been considered to "look down on Italy" before 1870 or even up to WW-I - but Mussolini was not involved in changing that. In Mussolini's time such a large Austria no longer existed, so it cannot have done so either.]

The list is endless for what Mussolini did for Italy.

Benito Mussolini made Catholicism the official religion in Italy:

Citing Costituzione della Repubblica Sociale Italiana, Capo 1., Art. 6:

"La religione cattolica apostolica e romana è la sola religione della Repubblica Sociale Italiana." (The Roman Catholic and Apostolic religion is the only religion of the State.)

Resuming his words:

Benito Mussolini made religious education mandatory in schools:

Citing Costituzione della Repubblica Sociale Italiana, Capo II., Art. 86:

"La Repubblica Sociale Italiana considera fondamento e coronamento dell’istruzione pubblica l’insegnamento della Dottrina cristiana secondo la forma ricevuta dalla tradizione cattolica: perciò l’insegnamento religioso è obbligatorio nelle scuole pubbliche elementari e medie. La legge può stabilire particolari casi di esenzione." (The Italian Social Republic considers as the foundation and fulfillment of public education the teaching of Christian doctrine in the form received from the Catholic tradition: therefore religious education is obligatory in public elementary schools and secondary schools. The law may establish certain exceptions.)

[That was only in Salò Republic, and as much as Austrofascists did.]

Resuming his words:

Benito Musssolini made the Vatican an independent State. Without Mussolini there is no Vatican City. Benito Mussolini was actually the first Fascist leader to come to power as well! Benito Mussolini came to power in 1922, Francisco Franco in 1939, and Adolf Hitler in 1933. On February 13, 1929, Pope Pius XI praised Mussolini as the man "who was sent to us by Providence" and shortly after ordered the clergy to say a prayer "for the King and the Duce" ("Pro Rege et Duce") at the end of daily mass. Soon after the pope's speech, four weeks before the invasion, the cardinal's legate once again celebrated Mussolini as "the man of Providence" at the national Eucharist Congress. Many clergy also said this man was divinely appointed by God! :

Citations:

"Just as the "Divina Mens" sent Octavian; so also in Italy there arose the Man of Providence, the Man of Genius, who saved the State, and founded the Empire, and gave a more perfect consciousness of Italian national unity and religious peace." - Cardinal Schuster

The renowned Padre Pio also praised Mussolini: “Mussolini is one of the greatest politicians that I have ever seen, his views reflect the sake of what is written in the holy Bible and is the perfect driver of humanity." - Padre Pio

[Not totally doubtful, but a closer reference to where in their works or biographies would be appreciated.]

Resuming his words:

Mussolini was overwhelmingly loved, it is in fact a characteristic of his rule which non-polemical authors even admit. (Fact: His body was desecrated by Yugoslavian Communists and Italian Partisans that were also Communists NOT his own people)

Citing Luisa Quartermaine in 'Mussolini's Last Republic' (2000):

"I shall be very clear about this. Mussolini was loved by the people, but was hated by those who knew that his revolution would gradually destroy their privileges. He was hated also by a few ambitious politicians and officers, who could not accept their inferiority when compared with his genius, and aspired to take over from him."

Citing Sugata Bose in 'His Majesty's Opponent' (2011):

"It seems to me that the majority of the Italian people love the iron government of Mussolini."

Resuming his words:

Benito Mussolini even kept a confessor! A personal priest, Fr. Tacchi Venturi! It was Fr. Venturi who baptized Mussolini's kids in 1923, married him to his wife in 1925 (in a solemn religious service/ a Catholic marriage), helped with the Lateran Pacts in 1929, etc.

Regarding Mussolini being an atheist: His only time as an atheist was during his Socialist days, approximately the early 1900's to approximately 1919 or 1920 or so. A period of about 15 years. He was Catholic the entire rest of his life, both before and after that period.

He officially ceased to be a Socialist between 1914- 1919.

He was Catholic definitely by 1920. Possibly earlier.There is the fact that he married his wife in a religious ceremony, after having already been married to her civilly. He made it a sacrament.

[Though that could be because SHE was a Catholic, like his brother and his mother.]

I have a couple early quotes from him from 1920- 1923 or thereabouts:

Citing:

“I maintain that the Imperial and Latin tradition of Rome is represented today by Catholicism.”
-Benito Mussolini, Speech Before the Chamber, June 21, 1921

"Fascism is not an anti-religious movement. Fascism is not anti-religious in general, and is not anti-Christian or anti-Catholic in particular."
- Benito Mussolini, Article from Il Popolo d'Italia, July 27, 1922

"My spirit is deeply religious. Religion is a fundamental force which must be respected and defended. I am therefore opposed to anti-clerical and atheistic demagogy, which represents an old game. I affirm that Catholicism is a great spiritual and moral power, and trust that the relations between the Italian State and the Vatican will henceforth be very friendly."
— Benito Mussolini, Statements Made in Lausanne, November 21, 1922

"Fascism respects religion; it is not atheist, it is not anti-Christian, it is not anti-Catholic. It rarely happens that a Fascist funeral rite is secular."
-Article from Il Popolo d'Italia, May 25, 1922

Citing Other quotes:

"Just before I came out here I went into the church and knelt before the altar. That was not done to pay superficial homage to the religion of the State ; it was the expression of an intimate conviction, for I believe that a people cannot become great and powerful, conscious of its destinies, without religion ; unless it looks on religion and feels the need of it as an essential element of its public and private life. With this thought as motive for your actions you will see how country is served above all in silence, humility, discipline, without many or great phrases but with unfailing daily works."
— Benito Mussolini, Speech in Vicenza, September 23, 1924

The Doctrine of Fascism: Benito Mussolini (1932)
"Fascism, in short, is not only a law-giver and a founder of institutions, but an educator and a promoter of spiritual life. It aims at refashioning not only the forms of life but their content - man, his character, and his faith. To achieve this propose it enforces discipline and uses authority, entering into the soul and ruling with undisputed sway. Therefore it has chosen as its emblem the Lictor’s rods, the symbol of unity, strength, and justice."

“My labor had not been easy nor light; our Masonry had spun a most intricate net of anti-religious activity; it dominated the currents of thought; it exercised its influence over publishing houses, over teaching, over the administration of justice and even over certain dominant sections of the armed forces. To give an idea of how far things had gone, this significant example is sufficient. When, in parliament, I delivered my first speech of November 16, 1922, after the Fascist revolution, I concluded by invoking the assistance of God in my difficult task. Well, this sentence of mine seemed to be out of place! In the Italian parliament, a field of action for Italian Masonry, the name of God had been banned for a long time. Not even the Popular party the so-called Catholic party had ever thought of speaking of God. In Italy, a political man did not even turn his thoughts to the Divinity. And, even if he had ever thought of doing so, political opportunism and cowardice would have deterred him, particularly in a legislative assembly. It remained for me to make this bold innovation! And in an intense period of revolution! What is the truth! It is that a faith openly professed is a sign of strength. I have seen the religious spirit bloom again; churches once more are crowded, the ministers of God are themselves invested with new respect. Fascism has done and is doing its duty.”
- Benito Mussolini, My Rise (Autobiography), 1928

Resuming:

On the Fascist symbol, is it pagan? : First of all, just because a symbol is used by people who were pagans does not make it a pagan symbol. Not every symbol used by ancient people has a religious meaning. The Fascist symbol is the Fascio Littorio or Lictors Rods, also called a Fasces. It is a bundle of rods and an axe tied together with a rope. It symbolizes authority and unity in society. This has nothing to do with paganism or theology. It is actually a Protestant mentality, found very often in anti-Catholic literature.

"Pagans used candles, therefore Catholics are pagan; pagans invented the Roman institutions, therefore the Catholic Church practices paganism; pagans breathed oxygen, therefore true Christians should kill themselves"

etc.

What is Fascism? Fascism: A great political ideology! Fascism stands for Traditionalism; it believes in traditional social, family, and religious values. The Fascist State does not attempt, as did Robespierre, to set up a "god" of its own; nor does it vainly seek, as does Bolshevism, to efface God from the soul of man. The Fascist State sees in religion one of the deepest of spiritual manifestations and for this reason it not only respects religion but defends and protects it. Fascism indeed has its moral code; it proclaims true Catholic ethics as its moral character. It is for this reason that true Catholicism completes Fascism; for without it, Fascism would not be the same. In keeping with this moral code, Fascism opposes homosexuality, egalitarianism, feminism, contraception, abortion, pornography, etc. as against nature and as detrimental to society. Fascism is also not opposed to a Monarchy, for the first 20 years the Italian Fascist State was officially a Catholic Monarchy. Many Fascists are also strong supporters of Irredentism. No aspects of Fascism as an ideology are heretical.

[That depends on who defines Fascist ideology - a book of Gentile was on the index. By the way, I had NOT called the Fasces a pagan symbol.]

And neither Mussolini, nor any Fascist Party member, were ever formally excommunicated, like the Communists were.

Citing Emilio Papasogli, in 1923:

"In truth, Fascismo constitutes the reaction of the Latin mind and of Catholicism against the aberrations and the degeneracies of the modern spirit. The ascendancy of modern thought, born with the Protestant reformation and developed through the French revolution, is now at an end. With Fascismo, reaction and renovation, a new age begins."

And moreover:

"What is Italy defending? Italy is defending her Catholic faith with equal violence from 'Russian' Bolshevism on the one side, and the confusing and sectarian doctrines of the Anglo-Saxons governed by Jewry on the other."
— Carlo Scorza, Secretary of the National Fascist Party, July 18, 1943.

Pius XI felt the need to write against both Germany and Italy, and the Holy Office under him condemned anti-Semitism, but never once did he speak out against Jewish crimes. Mussolini suppressed the Catholic Action group because it was engaging in covert political operations. So they actually violated the concordat, and Mussolini rightly suppressed them for their anti-Fascist political activity. The Concordat specifically forbade these groups from engaging in politics, they violated that, and Mussolini responded. Catholic Action carried out political propaganda. This was forbidden by both the German and Italian concordats. They were to stick solely to religious and charitable work, and stay away from politics. They did not live up to their agreement.You can read the concordat/ Lateran treaty of 1929 here! :

THE LATERAN TREATY
11th February, 1929
http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_LATERAN_TREATY.pdf

Regarding who was right Benito Mussolini or Pope Pius XI: Pope Pius XI was in the wrong. Pius XI got greedy, did not appreciate what he had. He pushed for church control of education, while hypocritically arguing that education should be in the hands of the parents (which means neither the church nor the state). He was not content with the fact that Catholicism was mandatory in state schools. This was the main point of contention. The other point was the issue of Catholic youth groups, which were "hotbeds" of democratic and anti-fascist political propaganda. The groups were supposed to be purely spiritual and apolitical (non-political), but continued to privately promote anti-fascism. Pius XI denied this at the time, but the fact that there was such a strong network ready to form anti-fascist parties and groups in 1943 after Mussolini was overthrown shows these groups were in fact privately harboring anti-fascism, and anti-fascist defenders of Pius XI later boasted of this fact after the war, when it became popular to disassociate the Church from Fascism; they boasted that these groups violated the concordat.

There was no country in Europe in the 1920's and 1930's that was more Catholic than Italy. Italy was one of the few countries in Europe at the time that still had an official religion, and which also mandated religious instruction in schools. While Portugal (in the 1920's) and Spain (in the 1930's) were being overrun by socialists, anarchists, anti-clericals and Masons, the Church was flourishing in Italy; crucifixes were in every classroom; new churches were built; priests blessed the founding of new cities; every flag, banner and monument was blessed; Fascist funerals were solemn religious services; Fascists partipated in all Catholic ceremonies and observed Holy Days; Fascists advanced the cult of St. Francis and St. Catherine; Canon Law was the official law of the State. Name one State that was more Catholic in this period. People love to go on about Catholic Poland, but many people do not realize that Catholic Poland recognized Talmudic Judaism alongside Christianity in their constitution. People also love to go on about Catholic Austria, but even Catholic Austria, which had a very pro-Catholic government in 1934, did not make Catholicism the official religion of the State when they issued their new constitution.

[They had a strong Calvinist minority in Burgenland - which contributed to Nazism, btw. Hungary just East was NOT confessionally Catholic and Horthy was a Calvinist.]

Some extra sources for my "On Benito Mussolini being a great Catholic and Italian hero " article here:

[Lists:]

• the Duce on religious matters generally." here:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Tacchi_Venturi
  
  [I think the article has changed since he looked at it.]
  
  
• Regarding Catholic action violating the Concordat we read "and when Fascists said that catholic action was disloyal they were right to the extent that some real opposition to Fascism in Italy grew with time" even though Pius XI denied it, here:
  
  https://books.google.com/books?id=nqloAAAAMAAJ&q=and+when+fascists+said+that+catholic+action+was+disloyal+they+were+right+to&dq=and+when+fascists+said+that+catholic+action+was+disloyal+they+were+right+to&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hwPnVIWqMYevogTt2YLgDg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA
  
  
• In 1924 a law was passed mandating crucifixes in all schools , courts and hospitals. It's a well known law that became controversial a few years ago when crucifixes were banned. Here is a classroom from the Fascist period:
  
  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/0/0f/Aule_nel_1930.JPG
  
  
• This is simply a matter of looking up dates. I don't know why this can not be done without me having to do all the work. The most notable church is the Chiesa di Sant' Antonio da Padova built in Predappio, Mussolini's birthplace, thanks to donations by Mussolini's family. It can be viewed here:
  
  http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiesa_di_Sant%27Antonio_%28Predappio%29
  
  
• Just one example, the new city of Aprilia being blessed:
  
  http://lnx.lepinimagazine.it/lepini/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/posa-prima-pietra-Aprilia.jpg
  
  
• As for banners, flags, etc. being blessed, there are hundreds of examples.
  
  Here is a gonfanon (banner) being blessed by Cardinal Gasparri:
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i5aVkUXctU
  
  
• Mussolini himself said that Fascist funerals were very rarely secular. One example of a solemn Catholic service here:
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qoGSvZQK8s
  
  
• Mussolini himself speaks of the salary of priests in his Autobiography, here:
  
  https://archive.org/details/MyAutobiography
  
  
• The advancement of the cult of Saint Catherine of Siena in Fascist Italy can be read about here:
  
  https://books.google.com/books?id=18DBLbQ8kpEC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=it+was+against+this+background+that+the+promotion+of+the+cult+of+saint+catherine&source=bl&ots=PbzBxm1qPh&sig=0J1S7fRSK4AbITt_y-5gZWKtgM0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7__mVIm1L5CwogSj_YCgDw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=it%20was%20against%20this%20background%20that%20the%20promotion%20of%20the%20cult%20of%20saint%20catherine&f=false
  
  
• It is well known that Fascists celebrated the 700th anniversary of St. Francis in 1926, with Mussolini honoring him in his speech, and urged the Vatican to make him the Patron of Italy, which it did in 1939. Mussolini praised Saint Francis of Assisi as the "the most Saintly of Italians, and the most Italian of Saints." Mussolini also declared October 4th a National holiday in the Saints honor. This can be read here:
  
  Fascist Voices: An Intimate History of Mussolini's Italy
  Christopher Duggan
  https://books.google.com/books?id=Lkuo4RmOncoC&pg=PA109&dq=%22the+most+Saintly+of+Italians,+and+the+most+Italian+of+Saints.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MgHnVILgOZHWoASi-4K4Dw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22the%20most%20Saintly%20of%20Italians%2C%20and%20the%20most%20Italian%20of%20Saints.%22&f=false
  
  
• Benito Mussolini made Canon Law (Church disciplinary laws) the official law of the State: The references to Canon Law can be found in theLateran Accords of 1929, here:
  
  THE LATERAN TREATY
  11th February, 1929
  http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_LATERAN_TREATY.pdf

The May Constitution is from 1791. That's two centuries prior to what we're even talking about. We're talking about the Poland of the interwar period, the Poland which is defended and extolled as a great Catholic country, while Italy is condemned. The Polish Constituion of March 1921 was very controversial, and Catholic clergy at the time were outraged. It is written about here:

[Link given as: http://books.google.com/books?id=RUOMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA92... =?=]

Poland in the Modern World: Beyond Martyrdom
Brian Porter-Szücs
http://books.google.fr/books?id=RUOMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA92&redir_esc=y

Citing Article 114 of the Constitution states:

"Wyznanie rzymsko-katolickie, będące religią przeważającej większości narodu, zajmuje w państwie naczelne stanowisko wśród równouprawnionych wyznań." "The Roman Catholic religion, being the religion of the overwheliming majority of the nation, will have a primacy among other religions which all have equal rights."

Resuming his words:

Therefore there was no State religion, and all other religions, including Judaism and Protestantism, were considered to have equal rights. All that is awarded to Catholicism is a sort of "primacy of honour" ("first amongst equals") because most of the populace was Catholic. This is word for word the same policy of Napoleon, who is also criticized and condemned by traditional Catholics for his religious policies. Yet these same people give their undying devotion and support to "Catholic Poland" and condemn Italy -- which was undoubtedly more Catholic at the time than Poland. And while the Polish Constitution was met with outrage in 1921, the Italian Lateran pact was met with universal praise in 1929.

My friend a true Italian Fascist gave me this information.

[I think he might have gotten my reference to Pilsudski wrong. I had said nothing implying that Pilsudski régime was more Catholic, though I considered Austrian was, since Austrofascists considered themselves obliged for societal organisation by the Popes' words. I said that if Mussolini had not invaded Ethiopia, which was anyway an ambition inherited from the bad old anti-Catholic days of Risorgimento, Mussolini and Pilsudski instead of Hitler could have led sth like Operation Barbarossa to deliver Russia and Ukraine and Belorussia from Communism - and they would have done a better job. That is a compliment to Mussolini too, not just to Pilsudski.]

HGL to JW

April 12th, 9:22pm

"He brought respect back to the Church and to religion in a time when anti-clericalism dominated Italy."

I'd like this to be true. But he upheld some kinds of anticlerical activities, as Pius XI complained in Non abbiamo bisogno.

"He eliminated Freemasonry."

One of the viceroys of Italy, I think Badoglio, was a Mason.

Generally speaking, his mother and his brother Alessandro were pious Catholics, he not so clearly, or at least at times very clearly not.

This does not mean a Catholic cannot be a Fascist or admire him.

"He brought fear and respect back to Italy, after Italy had been treated as second-class by the English, French, and Austrians."

In my book, first of all Austria had not treated Italy as second class up to any act of Mussolini, second, Austria owes a mixed gratitude to Mussolini, he defended Austria against Anschluss in 36, but no longer in 38, third and most important, Austria was a far more Catholic country than influential parts of Italy.

"Benito Musssolini made the Vatican an independent State. Without Mussolini there is no Vatican City."

Owed back to Popes was in reality all of Papal States. He wiggled that out of Pius XI.

"Benito Mussolini came to power in 1922, Francisco Franco in 1939, and Adolf Hitler in 1933."

Engelbert Dollfuss became a Fascist dictator in 1933. I hold Engelbert Dollfuss far over Hitler, and somewhat over Franco and Mussolini as well.

Not meaning I hate Mussolini or anything like that, he's just more problematic than Dollfuss.

"On February 13, 1929, Pope Pius XI praised Mussolini as the man "who was sent to us by Providence" and shortly after ordered the clergy to say a prayer "for the King and the Duce" ("Pro Rege et Duce") at the end of daily mass."

And a bit later, as this was fulfilling his part of agreement, Pope Pius XI, without abrogating these measures, complained Mussolini had not kept his side of the bargain. Non abbiamo bisogno, as said.

He praised Dollfuss more by agreeing the latter was applying Quadragesimo Anno correctly. And he never took that back.

JW to HGL

April 12th, 10:36pm

Pius XI felt the need to write against both Germany and Italy, and the Holy Office under him condemned anti-Semitism, but never once did he speak out against Jewish crimes. Mussolini suppressed the Catholic Action group because it was engaging in covert political operations. So they actually violated the concordat, and Mussolini rightly suppressed them for their anti-Fascist political activity. The Concordat specifically forbade these groups from engaging in politics, they violated that, and Mussolini responded. Catholic Action carried out political propaganda. This was forbidden by both the German and Italian concordats. They were to stick solely to religious and charitable work, and stay away from politics. They did not live up to their agreement.You can read the concordat/ Lateran treaty of 1929 here! :

THE LATERAN TREATY
11th February, 1929
http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_LATERAN_TREATY.pdf

Regarding who was right Benito Mussolini or Pope Pius XI: Pope Pius XI was in the wrong. Pius XI got greedy, did not appreciate what he had. He pushed for church control of education, while hypocritically arguing that education should be in the hands of the parents (which means neither the church nor the state). He was not content with the fact that Catholicism was mandatory in state schools. This was the main point of contention. The other point was the issue of Catholic youth groups, which were "hotbeds" of democratic and anti-fascist political propaganda. The groups were supposed to be purely spiritual and apolitical (non-political), but continued to privately promote anti-fascism. Pius XI denied this at the time, but the fact that there was such a strong network ready to form anti-fascist parties and groups in 1943 after Mussolini was overthrown shows these groups were in fact privately harboring anti-fascism, and anti-fascist defenders of Pius XI later boasted of this fact after the war, when it became popular to disassociate the Church from Fascism; they boasted that these groups violated the concordat.

HGL to JW

April 13th, 9:09am

"never once did he speak out against Jewish crimes."

• 1) He condemned eugenic crimes in Casti Connubii.
  
  Racial legislations about marriage are also a Jewish crime, originated in synagogue saying "you may marry someone of Jewish origin whether they are baptised or not" and imitated by Hitler in Nuremberg laws of 1936 and alas by Mussolini too in 1938, which Mussolini had condemned as late as his interview for Chesterton, see the latter's The Resurrection of Rome (1930).
  
  
• 2) He condemned Capitalistic crimes in Quadragesimo Anno. Dollfuss, whom he supported, had removed Jews from administartion with individual exceptions and also forbidden them access to Catholic Universities;
  
  
• 3) He condemned Communism;
  
  
• 4) Killing Christian children had hardly been done since back in the Beyliss case in Russia [1911];
  
  
• 5) Zionist crimes were not yet being done on a large scale, and if any Church officials in Palestine were condemning such, they probably enjoyed full support of Pope Pius XI.

So, Pope Pius XI was condemning Jewish criminality everywhere where it was to be condemned.

[If we were to extend list of Judaeo-Typical crimes to 6, religious crime of Judaism, it was Pius XII who started loosing up the condemnation for that in some respects, not Pius XI, and to 7, psychiatry, this crime was shared by Mussolini.]

"Mussolini suppressed the Catholic Action group because it was engaging in covert political operations. So they actually violated the concordat, and Mussolini rightly suppressed them for their anti-Fascist political activity. The Concordat specifically forbade these groups from engaging in politics, they violated that, and Mussolini responded. "

That is not really the version I think Pius XI would have agreed to.

"Catholic Action carried out political propaganda. This was forbidden by both the German and Italian concordats. They were to stick solely to religious and charitable work, and stay away from politics. They did not live up to their agreement."

If a Catholic group in US would say "you must not vote for pro-abortion politicians", would it be doing "politics"? Or would it be doing catechism, thus religion?

I think the latter!

[Of course, Mussolini was not as bad as abortion liberals!]

"Pius XI got greedy, did not appreciate what he had. He pushed for church control of education, while hypocritically arguing that education should be in the hands of the parents (which means neither the church nor the state)."

• 1) Parents as in neither Church nor state is FULLY realised when parents decide without any State interference who they hadn their children over to for education.
  
  Catholic parents would homeschool, give children over to Catholic artisans for apprenticeships or give them over to schools of the Church. Protestant or Atheist parents would not do so, and neither would state enforce them doing so anyway, nor would Church ask that, as long as it was not a group the Church asked to suppress anyway (like Albigensians in 1300). As long as they had a right to exist in civil liberty, they also had a right to decide freely on schools.
  
  In the Papal States before 1870, Jews were NOT required to send children to Catholic schools. The one Mortara case, the baptised Jewish child was practically homeschooled by Pope Pius IX of venerable memory.
  
  
• 2) This was NOT the case in Italy. The Excommunicated Kings of the robber state which had violated Papal States, Austria and Two Sicilies had instituted school compulsion of some sort.
  
  This being so, Church had a right to defend the conscience of Catholic parents within schools it was not directly running. Namely those which the State was forcing Catholic parents to send their sons and daughters to.

So, Pius XI was perfectly in the right.

Moreoever, Italian schools under the 19th C. liberals were certainly, and under Mussolini at least still possibly honouring men like Galileo and Giordano Bruno. This was possibly a breach of Lateran Treaty on part of Mussolini, and certainly, if continued under him, a breach against the natural law and the respect due to the conscience of parents.

You said he "got greedy". Well, I say the Lateran Treaty was his NOT being "greedy" enough. He committed basically a crime of treason against the Papal States by handing most of them over to Italy.

That said, my take on Mussolini is his one problem was being too loyal to Italy as established by the excommunicated Sardinian tyrants. And that means I hate Vittorio Emmanuele II and Cavour and the Roman Mayor Nathan in a way I do not hate Mussolini.

Mussolini could also have avoided the Ethiopian misadventure, if he hadn't been inheritor of the ambitions of 19th C. idiotic liberals of nationalist bent. AND if the freemason Badoglio had not been sent as viceroy there. At least possibly.

If anything, Pius XI was too weak against Italy.

"Pius XI denied this at the time, but the fact that there was such a strong network ready to form anti-fascist parties and groups in 1943 after Mussolini was overthrown shows these groups were in fact privately harboring anti-fascism, and anti-fascist defenders of Pius XI later boasted of this fact after the war, when it became popular to disassociate the Church from Fascism; they boasted that these groups violated the concordat."

If this is so, that means that Pius XI may have been ignorant of what was going on.

[Other explanation, see below after I actually looked up article 43 - I had considered JW as a man capable of reading with reading comprehension up to giving this answer, and then later - see below - found I was wrong.]

That would mean that part of his complaints (that part) in Non abbiamo bisogno, was due to his being misinformed about fact.

Let us hope he was so, rather than hypocritical.

JW to HGL

April 14th, 3:01am

""Italy illegally took the Pope's land, Pope Pius IX excommunicated all those who supported Italy."

I think that the person who said this needs to mind their own business; that matter was settled nearly 100 years ago, move on.

It is funny that the people clamouring for the restoration of the papal states are people who do not come from Italy, and apparently are not well versed in history.

The Vatican State is the modern papal state, and the pope in 1929 (Pope Pius XI) relinquished all claim to other parts of Italy, and was given compensation. In other words, THE PAPACY HAS ALREADY RENOUNCED THE TERRITORIES IN EXCHANGE FOR MONETARY COMPENSATION AND THE RECOGNITION OF THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE VATICAN CITY-STATE ON THE PART OF ITALY.

Who are you (or anyone else) to start claiming for the popes what the popes themselves have renounced?

Yes, the siezure in the 19th century was illegal, but that makes no difference now, because today (and ever since 1929) Italy has legally possessed all the territories, and the popes have recognized this fact.

And if these people want the pope to have more land, then go ahead and offer him their own country.

This siezure wasn't even under Mussolini either, it was during the Italian Wars of Independence in the 19th century, which led to the Roman Question, which was solved in 1929 by Benito Mussolini.

The pope was given millions in compensation, he was given a library by Mussolini, the Vatican State was recognized as independent and sovereign. And in exchange the pope relinquished all claims to Rome and Italy.

So, it really doesn't matter what Pius IX said or did, because Pius XI made his own political decisions in the name of the papacy."

HGL to JW

April 14th, 12:23pm

"I think that the person who said this needs to mind their own business; that matter was settled nearly 100 years ago, move on."

If so, why don't you move on about Mussolini's honour and the breaches of the Lateran Treaty?

Either we can or we can't take sides in past conflicts.

I'm not the one saying we can't.

But you are basically saying you can and I can't.

"Who are you (or anyone else) to start claiming for the popes what the popes themselves have renounced?"

Cardinal Stickler claimed there were according to Canonists three things even a Pope cannot touch. One of them is "Status Ecclesiae". He did not decide what it means. I think it means "Kirchenstaat" = "Papal States".

In other words, Pope Pius XI overstepped his competence in granting Papal States outside Vatican City and Castel Gandolfo to Italy.

Moreover, Papal States had subjects which had families. This means that up to 1870 Popes were showing how a state should deal with family rights.

Italy has taken a wrong turn in several items, like school compulsion, and like 18 year age limit for marriages (these crimes were committed by other states, Soviet Union and by now most European States have imitated this evil). It is true that the criminal pseudolegislation hurt Italy before Mussolini. But it is also true that it did hurt.

Maria Goretti and Alessandro Serenelli might have had a decent married life under Popes in Papal States, if, for instance, he could have instead of proposing to make her pregnant to get a dispensation to marry her before she was 18, he could have said "you are soon 12, shall we engage with your mothers' consent and marry in a few months?"

Saint Maria Goretti is really in a way IL CIELO sopra la palude, but it was replacing Papal States with Italy which provided la palude.

And did so for the poisoning of Serenelli's mind with anticlerical stuff too.

Oh, one more thing, look which article Paul VI and Italian police broke:

Citing Art. 4 of Patti Lateranensi, 11 Febbraio 1929, Trattato:

La sovranità e la giurisdizione esclusiva, che l’Italia riconosce alla Santa Sede sulla Città del Vaticano, importa che nella medesima non possa esplicarsi alcuna ingerenza da parte del Governo Italiano e che non vi sia altra autorità che quella della Santa Sede.

Resuming own words

Abbé de Nantes came to Vatican to depose an accusation dossier against Pope Paul VI for heresy before Pope Paul VI as judge.

Abbé de Nantes was impeded from deposing this, illegally against all Canon law, since evicted. But there is more to it. He was not evicted by Swiss Guards, but by Italian policemen clearly breaking article 4 of the Lateran Treaty. but that was of course a fault of Montini/Paul VI, of which Pius XI is innocent.

After going from Trattato to Concordato [Patti Lateranensi, 11 Febbraio 1929], here are a few things (not quoting whole articles) which struck me:

Citing Art. 37

I dirigenti delle associazioni statali per l’educazione fisica, per l’istruzione premilitare, degli Avanguardisti e dei Balilla, per rendere possibile l’istruzione e l’assistenza religiosa della gioventù loro affidata, disporranno gli orari in modo da non impedire nelle domeniche e nelle feste di precetto l’adempimento dei doveri religiosi. …

Resuming own words

This was broken by Fascists, which is one reason for Non abbiamo bisogno. And stated as such in the text thereof.

Citing Art. 36

L’Italia considera fondamento e coronamento dell’istruzione pubblica l’insegnamento della dottrina cristiana secondo la forma ricevuta dalla tradizione cattolica. …

Resuming own words

This means that the Church needed a right to say stop if part of the public instruction was in any way against “the Christian doctrine according to the form received by the Catholic Tradition”. As I argued earlier.

Citing Art. 34

Lo Stato italiano, volendo ridonare all’istituto del matrimonio, che è base della famiglia, dignità conforme alle tradizioni cattoliche del suo popolo, riconosce al sacramento del matrimonio, disciplinato dal diritto canonico, gli effetti civili. … Quanto alle cause di separazione personale, la Santa Sede consente che siano giudicate dall’autorità giudiziaria civile.

Resuming own words

I left out a big chunk, but the problem is that the Church seems not to have insisted that a priest marrying a fourteen year old young man to a twelve year young lady, should be able to not only do so, but have this recognised and of course not rescinded in any civil court. Here I think Pius XI was simply weak.

Oh, yes, the question of Azzione Cattolica ...

Citing Art. 43

Lo Stato italiano riconosce le organizzazioni dipendenti dall’Azione Cattolica Italiana, in quanto esse, siccome la Santa Sede ha disposto, svolgano la loro attività al di fuori di ogni partito politico e sotto l’immediata dipendenza della gerarchia della Chiesa per la diffusione e l’attuazione dei principî cattolici. La Santa Sede prende occasione dalla stipulazione del presente Concordato per rinnovare a tutti gli ecclesiastici e religiosi d’Italia il divieto di iscriversi e militare in qualsiasi partito politico.

Resuming own words

But since “Democrazia Cristiana” was NOT a political party at the time, simply criticising Fascism for totalitarian tendencies did not constitute a breach of the article.

[And White Horse media also does not quote the article other than forbidding political parties. The requirement was not verbally to be totally apolitical in every respect, that would have been an reinterpretation, like First Amendment (or was it second?) is reinterpreted as "separation of Church and State" in US.]