Does NOT specifically contain any more debate on how Alcuin triggered divorce between Romance speech and Latin writing by indirectly doubling the versions (starting directly with the Latin one), only on what Latin is nowadays good for, if anything.
- [I posted link to previous and added:]
TK, RW, CDCC, I cited you extensively, do you want anonymity or attribution by name?
- Anonimity please. I am glad to see a more elaborated answer because before you made extent use of ad hominem and falling into a strong cultural bias (product of your own interests) and even survival of the fittest.
- Ping: HGL.
TK>> "Formal Latin is moribund."
HGL> Not really. It means dying and it is not.
Yes it is. It is predestined to be a laughing skeleton! Never underestimate the humour value of skeletons and their affiniados!
HGL> Confusingly indistinct is perhaps what you mean, but that is not so. A rose is "rosa" in Latin and "rosa rosa" in Techno-Macaronian as you call it. A dog and a wolf are in Latin "canis" and "lupus", and in Techno-Macaronian "canis canis" or "canis vulgaris" and "canis lupus". IN formal Latin there is no such thing as "canis lupus", a canis is a canis and a lupus is a lupus, just as a dog is a dog and a wolf is a wolf. If anything, "canis lupus" would be a hybrid, like those between wolf and German shepherd.
DARN! Is it THIS that modern humans speak about? I thought it was computers (computatra), laptops (computatra gestabile), TP-cables (??), WiFi (??), jobs (negotia), negotiations (oh forget it!), communication (communicatio), travels (iter), iterations (oh forget it!), energy (energia!), society (societās), politics (civilitas), civility (??), entertainment (oblectamentum), chemical compounds (composita chemica), etc. etc.. Peoples' most important talk isn't about roses or dogs. We don't build aqueducts and enslave neighbors, we don't outsource all science to Greek scholars that we despise for not being Roman. By the way, how did we distinguish DATIVE from ABLATIVE in PLURALIS? If Latin isn't moribund, it deserves to, because it is a variant of Assholeian.
Now perhaps you understand what I mean.
- "Yes it is. It is predestined to be a laughing skeleton! Never underestimate the humour value of skeletons and their affiniados!"
Sorry, but a liturgic language one prays in and a scholastic language one studies Thomism in (especially Thomasic Thomism) is not a laughing skeleton.
This may seem weird to a Swede, but that's why I left Sweden!
"DARN! Is it THIS that modern humans speak about?"
- While I was preparing the continuation:
- I just find living languages more interested than dead ones like Latin
- Humans living today have other things to do than to be modern.
"jobs (negotia), negotiations (oh forget it!)"
Negotium means business and shop/trade. If you are a cobbler, shoes are your negotium. Negotiations, would have to look it up, but there were among other things peace negotiations in wars (both Gallic and Punic) so count on finding the word in Livy or Caesar.
" travels (iter), iterations (oh forget it!)"
Iterated travels are iinera iterata. Iterare means repeat. It's ire that means go, travel.
Energeia is Greek for potentia, and the modern physical concept does not quite live up to this scholastic concept - nor to the stringency of constitutiing one in its own right.
"Det dunkelt sagda är det dunkelt tänkta", according to Esaias Tegnér. And that covers LOTS of modern concepts.
"society (societās), politics (civilitas), civility (??)"
Civility is humanitas. Politics is politica. Society is Civitas, if you mean a society like Malmö and Sweden. Societas means company, both as a pastime pleasure (in societate amicorum) and as a formal kind of club (Societas Jesu fundata est per Ignatium Loyolam).
- Now, Hans-Georg! I have also considered learning Latin for the antiquarian value, mostly for Linnaeus, Newton and others, but Latin must be a dead language. About scholastics, I don't care very much, since I'm studying Christianity from the perspective of Jesus, Nasoraeanism and Gnosticism, which requires Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and Coptic -- too many languages!! Perhaps Arabic instead, for their science, perhaps Chinese, for their science.
- HGL, you funny!
[meme : sorry I’m late, just here for the comments]
- I smell cultural bias here.
- HGL, you're still missing the point. Iterations are two science terms, one very precise computer science term (as opposed to recursion), and a similar but not exactly same mathematical term (which is not in any way opposite to recursion).
- TK, but what point is he trying to make? Is he quoting latin words to prove that english is some kind of corrupted latin?
- "Peoples' most important talk isn't about roses or dogs. We don't build aqueducts and enslave neighbors, we don't outsource all science to Greek scholars that we despise for not being Roman."
Roses and dogs are lots more important (and by the way repeatedly mentioned in debates by Kent Hovind) than the kind of things you want "language" to talk about.
You DO build aquaeducts, nowadays usually of metal and inserted in roads and buildings and getting pressure from water towers. Enslaving is overrated as a Roman act and underrated as a modern act (school compulsion, child welfare and psychaitry are three kinds of modern plagium, i e menstealing, slave hunt).
"By the way, how did we distinguish DATIVE from ABLATIVE in PLURALIS?"
By context. One kind of context being that ablativus instrumenti is more often a thing and dativus commodi more often a person.
[If he ever studies Coptic or at least Greek, he'll come across same problem in some version. In other words : same way we distinguish them all the time without any help from endings.]
Another one being that (but this is most relevant for singular), if one context (in a phrase needing both, which might be rareish) is clearly ablative of such and such a thing the other one, possibly either, is then probably dative instead.
"If Latin isn't moribund, it deserves to, because it is a variant of Assholeian."
YOUR way of dealing with language, either living or dead, is a variety of Arseholian. Your kind of viewpoint is what over dominates Sweden to the point of making it impossible for me to stay. I left in 2004 and have not regretted it.
TK, Gnosticism is not Christianity. It's that simple. When Gnostic Cerinthus stepped into a bath, St John fled out of it.
- RW, I am correcting his assumptions on what Latin words correspond to what modern concepts.
What I am speaking up against is not English but Modernese.
- TK, iteratio and recursio are both sth like "repetition" and therefore both available in the diverse contexts you have. Neither means the same as iter.
- Yeah, Swedes are evil (with an obligatory "Bouahhahaaa!" addendum). We're darned pragmatics! (It is Luther's fault, everything, including literacy, is Luther's fault). And about Gnosticism: perhaps it is not Christianity, but I don't care! I care about the Gnostic/Nasorean origins and why this created the "Catholic aspect" of Christianity. In full respect for both Catholicism, and Gnosticism, that is.
- CDCC, since I have a moment left, you smelled correctly. TK and I have very opposite cultural biasses.
- TK, I am reminded about a Republican poster on Al Gore. "Not Evil, Just Wrong".
But, thanks to school compulsion, so many are so damned wrong, it's hard for someone who is right to stay. Unless he be discrete and have built his position on sth else.
- CDCC, anonimity is respected.
" I am glad to see a more elaborated answer because before you made extent use of ad hominem and falling into a strong cultural bias (product of your own interests) and even survival of the fittest."
Ad hominem? Where?
I was not speaking of survival of the fittest. I was speaking of what keeps.
If you want strawberries in winter, you preserve them in sugar during early summer, like jam or like a preserve.
If you want a spoken language to be heard five hundred years from now, you make sure to find a preserve for that too. There are two options, not mutually exclusive : metric poetry (including singing) and writing.
- TK, I'm probably worse... I am one of those infidel, peace loving, hippies with a strong Central/Eastern/Southern Europe bias
- Oh, I am not against Central/Eastern/Southern Europe. I love Vienna and liked el camino.
- Tough life for you HGL. I'm pretty much "brainwashed" by the sinister (?), lost (?), totally wrong (?), attitude of the Swedes, so my life is somewhat easier.
- CDCC, you would probably make a perfect Swede!
- That is why I love Sweden, TK (but what about Halfeti, Rize, Constanta, Chisinau, L'viv, Gdansk?). They probably brainwashed me and took the Hispanic-Catholic (and Chilean nationalistic) culture out of me.
- RW, while they are making friends, a language one prays in and studies in is not dead.
You forgot there is such a thing as the Catholic Church.
- I said it
- I said the C word. They seem to have dropped silent for a moment.