On Wein, Weib and more debate than Gesang

MOS

status

If your pastor says it's ok to drink, find a new church

Do you agree?

Skipping

some ...

HGL said

If your pastor says it's not ok to drink in moderation - find an old Church.

Skipping

some ...

BL said

What’s the line between sober (which we are told to be), and intoxicated (which we are told not to be)?

Why gamble?

HGL said

If you are an adult and you drink one glass of wine slowly (you have a glass of water too, so you don't need to haste the wine for thirst) at a meal, you will be sober.

THAT quantity is not a gamble.

EEC said

Bible didn't point anyway or didn't sayed we should not drink but did't be a drunkness Paul say to Timothy .Stop drinking only water and use a little wine 4 his stomach anhis frequent illness

SM said

Having a drink is not having 3 or 4. Everyone has their limit, mine is 1 to 2 so I have 1 when I do. It’s not rocket science.

BL said

starting a subthread

I’ve taken a lot of classes on this, intoxication begins at first sip. Why do it if we are commanded to stay sober and vigilant, for Satan seeks to destroy us

JG said

I disagree with your logic.

HGL said

"intoxication begins at first sip."

You have taken classes by heretics who consider initial euphoria as "intoxication".

It is like considering the effect of coffee as "caffeine intoxication".

BL said

HGL said

Lol both of you... 🤗

The classes were biology classes and classes to be certified to serve alcohol when I was s server long time ago. ... not bible classes on intoxicating start times.
“Heretics” .... LOLOL

Caffeine is not commanded against silly

JG said

Nor is alcohol, silly.

HGL said

BLif you were a server, perhaps it was good to not drink, since otherwise these have access to much alcohol and situations in which using too much of it would be tempting.

BL said

JG
True, but too much is, yet too much caffeine isn’t the decay of society into sin and debauchery

BL said

HGL
No matter what your job, it’s wise not to drink at all

HGL said

"yet too much caffeine isn’t the decay of society into sin and debauchery"

Do you count Sabbath breaking and overworking employees as kosher?

"No matter what your job, it’s wise not to drink at all"

Until the job is done ...

BL said

HGL I’m not referring g to drinking on the job. Just drinking at all in life : which is obviously what I’m speaking about.

There is no command in the new covenant for sabbath keeping

HGL said

The ten commandments oblige.

Working in "non-necessary" works on Sundays is wrong.

Serving is "necessary," it gives other people among others a chance to eat on Sundays without the bother to cook, and I am not bothered to enumerate specifically all the issues on which Sunday work is allowed, but Sunday work in general is forbidden like it was on Saturdays in OT (though not as strictly).

JG said

I don't disagree, I'm against the idea of getting wasted and out of control, but to know your limit and be in control of your faculties is not sinful.

AM said

BL why would the Bible tell you to drink it if it were a sin? I was a server too we are taught the way we are in those classes to be able to recognize when people need to be cut off..resturants are extremely careful in this area because they don't want to be accountable if someone is driving drunk and they didn't cut them off earlier....server training is hardly a biology class....though the effects of alcohol start when you have your first glass not sip...you need to continue to drink for you to become drunk....you can't ignore the scriptures that permit drinking in moderation just because you have convictions with it...if you don't drink that is your prerogative but its not a sin for those who do as long as they aren't drinking to drunkenness...also being sober and vigilant is speaking not only in terms of physically sober but spiritually as well...1 Peter 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 The elders [ancients] which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

BL said

AM
Show me where I said it was a sin? I said it is better to not drink at all. Am I wrong? Also, I said I took classes, which does not lump them all in one group called ABC license to serve class. Speaking of, you must have been sleeping. Intoxication starts w first sip. You do t finish one drink before you feel the effects. Anyone who has ever had a drink can tell you that without biology classes.

HGL said

BL "Show me where I said it was a sin?"

You didn't, but you did ask about whether not drinking could be foolish.

"I said it is better to not drink at all."

Correct, as with not marrying - provided you stay chaste.

"Am I wrong?"

If you feel superior to those who do drink in moderation, you are.

"Also, I said I took classes, which does not lump them all in one group called ABC license to serve class."

I suggested you can have been taught by a heretic, the fact that it was in classes before becoming a server is no guarantee there was no Islam or 7 Day Adventism or Mormonism behind.

"Speaking of, you must have been sleeping. Intoxication starts w first sip. You do t finish one drink before you feel the effects. Anyone who has ever had a drink can tell you that without biology classes."

The problem is not whether you feel effects from the first sip.

The problem is whether that counts as "intoxication" and whether it counts as "getting drunk".

Now, as to "intoxication", you can as easily speak of "intoxication" of either sugar of caffeine.

As to "getting drunk," saying that is obviously against the Bible.

Christ made more wine when the guests were already tipsy. In other words, being tipsy is not against the commandments against drunkenness.

HGL said

AM "though the effects of alcohol start when you have your first glass not sip...you need to continue to drink for you to become drunk...."

Thank you very much. It seems BL was sleeping through this piece of your text.

Other subthreat

where first is in response to the one starting previous subthread. Or rather, second is, that is where the subthread starts.

JG said

I disagree, not backed by Scripture. Unless I miss read the miracle at the wedding at Cana. I agree with you if your pastor advocates getting wasted and intoxicated. That would be reason enough to look elsewhere. But not for what you stated. Can you agree with me on this?

BW said

I am a Pastor, I believe that drinking is okay but you CANNOT get drunk it says in the Bible do not be a drunkard!

BL said

Ok, forget right vs wrong, sin vs not sin.

Do you think drinking at all falls under the heading of wise or foolish?

Do you think that not drinking falls under the heading of wise or foolish?

HGL said

Both can fall under the heading of wise and both can fall under the heading of foolish.

BL said

HGL

explain?

HGL said

Not to drink to avoid getting drunk is wise.

Not to drink and think it will forever whatever your future circumstance save you from getting drunk is foolish.

Drink to enjoy a good taste and a great carbohydrate which also eases your possible constipation is wise.

Drink to when alcohol starts showing other traits than the euphoria common to carbohydrates is ... if done too much ... foolish.

TN said

What does being a pastor mean? We are all accountable to the Word whether a pastor says it or not!

BL said

HGL first one is not a choice. Drinking or not drinking. Not drinking but how much is ok?

You must not be able to imagine life without drinking. Sad for you. I used to be a raging everyday drinking alcoholic. It can be beat. Haven’t had a sip in 14 years.

There are so many health choices benefits that contain no alcohol.

I’d like to wait to hear this pastors answer.

HGL said

"You must not be able to imagine life without drinking."

I am not imagining mine without occasional treats like a beer to a meal ... my grandfather was a distiller.

I have not had to deal with alcoholism in my own person, and do not imagine paying for someone else's alcoholism.

I am perfectly capable not just to imagine but to live weeks without a drop.

(oh, not water or coffee)

(you know the saying "too much blood in my caffeine ...")

[Alert : "caffeineism" is a joke, a spoof on those who imagine I am an alcoholic. OK.]

BL said

HGL my stance is not to call a drink a sin, but to state that it’s better not to even have any. Don’t allow yourself to be convicted. I see no argument for my stance, unless one thought all abstinence from alcohol was wrong

HGL said

"not to call a drink a sin"

Fair enough

"it’s better not to even have any."

Under circumstances.

"I see no argument for my stance, unless one thought all abstinence from alcohol was wrong"

All abstinence is not wrong, but neither is all celibacy.

Some Catholic priests would be overzealous and basically tell people not to get married, you sound a bit like that.

It's better not to marry, Christ and St Paul said so, doesn't mean every celibate is wise or every married person foolish.

BL said

HGL
Is the topic marriage? Is all sex sin? No but we are not substituting words and topics. Topic is drinking, not all abstinence or no abstinence of anything under the sun

HGL said

Drink and sex are both things which man does best to abstain from and both are things which are nevertheless licit choices.

My point is, if a thing is always foolish because one is in general better off doing without it, then marriage also would be always foolish, which is false.

BL said

HGL
I agree with none of your logic. You compare things as if they are equal. Too much drinking in any situation is always wrong. In marriage, there is no too much sex that makes it sinful.

GS said

resp to TN

A pastor is another name for shepherd, elder,overseer or bishop. 1 Tim 3.1-7 &Titus 1.1-5 not given to much wine

HGL said

BL " In marriage, there is no too much sex that makes it sinful."

Yes, there is. The one where you take on a condom where you don't want a baby and don't want to abstain.

Sin against nature, sin of Onan, horrible thing.

GS said

So if you have a cat or dog do yo let them have puppies or kittens all the time

Sex is not purely for procreation, my wife is passed child bearing age.do we stop having sex?

BL said

HGL
https://youtu.be/QS9OwHoVnH4

Exposing Roman Catholicism (Former Catholic Priest Richard…

This seems to be the root of your bad logic

GS said

did Abram abstain from sarai because she was barren

TN said

Scripture doesn't say if he did

GS said

I'm just trying to point out that sexual relations between man and wife are not just for reproduction

HGL said

"So if you have a cat or dog do yo let them have puppies or kittens all the time"

Since they are not created in God's image, it is not a pure evil to sterilise them, but I would not, I'd try to find owners for puppies and kittens.

"Sex is not purely for procreation, my wife is passed child bearing age.do we stop having sex?"

According to St Ambrose, you normally should. However, it is not canonically required.

As long as you are open to life should God make a miracle, no problem.

"This seems to be the root of your bad logic"

Answering that man who fell off after Vatican II is a separate issue, here I deal with your arguments.

"did Abram abstain from sarai because she was barren"

It would seem they didn't, since they got no actual order like "don't be afraid to enter into her chamber".

On the other hand, it seems they did, since the prediction of a son would entail a promise of a miracle justifying sex as within the goal given to the first married couple in Genesis 1:28.

In other words, we don't know.

However, what is certain is, if they did have sex, they were not saying "ha, at last we won't have to worry about getting children, let's go for it".

Sara was regretting being childless. So was Elisabeth.

Two women were even praying in the temple because they were barren, the mothers of Samson and Samuel.

"I'm just trying to point out that sexual relations between man and wife are not just for reproduction"

"Not just for reproduction" does not mean they can be licitly twisted against reproduction. The goods of marriage are : 1) reproduction (Genesis 1:28); 2) mutual aid in repressing desire which could otherwise get evil (see I Cor 7); 3) the sacrament being an image of Christ and the Church by mutual fidelity.

TN said

People just trying to do the right thing.

HGL said

As long as they don't use condoms or coitus interruptus or worse, they can be within reason, ideally no NFP either.

One more subthread

coming after the "pastoral" one:

TN said

Just keep in mind when you do take a drink you are chemically altered

HGL said

When you eat you are chemically altered too.

TN said

Different effect

HGL said

Different, when it comes to sugar and early stages of alcohol euphoria, not too different.

TN said

I do feel different, sorry

HGL said

Nevertheless, you do feel sth when you eat.

TN said

Sth?

EC said

When you take medicine you are chemically altered

TN said

Alcohol is known to dull response time when driving

EC said

and eating too much makes you drowsy

TN said

But alcohol has many legal ramifications that eating does not. You do what you like. As for me and my house we will not indulge but keep a sober mind.

EC said

You can consume alcohol without being drunk

TN said

Try an experiment and observe another person and take note of the differences after consuming the first one. Without you imbibing.

HGL said

TN sth = something (S ome TH ing)

Response time for drivers, correct, but we are not driving the road 24 by 24. Nor should we.

As for you and yours, you do what you like.

Legal ramifications in US law is not the issue when it comes to Christian morality and overeating is as much a sin as getting drunk.

As to the experiment you proposed, I was enjoying the video with Catholic Couple and Lizzie's Answers and reflecting "why wasn't I invited" ...

LizziesAnswers - The Newest YouTube Convert!
That Catholic Couple | Diffusé en direct le 12 mars 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j6zYWlEeHY

A weird thing seems to happen

when I had posted it and TN answered, I saw my last answer and her answer to that had moved upthread.

TN's name crossed out for anonymity.