jeudi 18 mai 2017

With Aristobule Adams

Difference between "sodomy" and "homosexuality" · With an Orthodox Priest on Lenin, Putin, KGB and the Orthodox I Met · With Aristobule Adams

Aristibule Adams
April 20 at 9:11pm
[my debate ended
April 24 at 4:00pm]·
Strange days - Catholics who believe what Catholics used to believe are now called 'Pelagians', and Orthodox who believe what Orthodox have always believed are called 'Bogomils'.

Some comments
lower ....

Hans-Georg Lundahl
If Orthodox have prayed for me to not have a wife, if Orthodox have considered it sinful of me to deal with my inchastity by seeking a wife, well, then Orthodox have acted like Bogomils.

Aristibule Adams
What's stopping you from getting a wife?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I do not know what is stopping me each single time, why this girl stopped seeing me, why that girl stopped seeing me, why this other person would suddenly not look at my compositions, why yet another person had wanted to look at my writings in purpose of possible publication and gave it up - but these things happened.

So did things like being inconveniently in love with two girls at once, probably having sth to do with lack of sleep and loss of hope.

So did things like being interested in one girl, being a bit shy to ask in my situation, hoping for another girl and ONLY just giving her up when the first one was married or engaged to someone else.

If mother blessed me to do what I wanted, since I wanted to marry, unless something had interfered with my mother's blessing, I should be married now.

So, I guess some crook has abused Divine Liturgy to pray for me staying celibate.

Aristibule Adams
That's not how we use petitions in the Divine Liturgy anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
There is nothing like specific intentions?

Aristibule Adams
Not in the Eastern rite. We still have the optional phrase in our Western rite texts where the priest can announce special prayer intentions immediately before the Orare Fratres (et Sorores). But even that is something publicly announced, not private, and would be very inappropriate to offer an intention for someone not to marry. I imagine any laity who heard such a thing would report it to the Dean or Bishop post-haste.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
What if a priest were to think of me while praying for the monks (mistakenly beliving me to be a monk)?

Aristibule Adams
God answers the prayers of the righteous, and the righteous only pray righteous prayers. It isn't magic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What if x has made sure that y who is righteous thinks I am unrighteous and also made sure I stumble on sth so that I really will be so?

Aristibule Adams
God is all knowing. In any case, we should pray not our will, but His - as God's Will is perfect. Fiat voluntas tua. Yes?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

And no, for two reasons:

  • if I am not truly of my heart submitting to God's will, I am a hypocrite for saying it;
  • while a Christian in the state of Sanctifying Grace certainly is submitting to God's will, this does not automatically exclude his own will, except in cases of a perceived contradiction (Our Lord did not say we must act like He in Gethsemane each time we pray Our Father, more like we must have a general readiness for it).

The first of these is why, not having a wife and not seeing things go my way, I renounced the Rosary for long, not daring to pray the Our Fathers, content with three Hail Mary, if as much as that.

So, what if someone else's prayer is more righteous than mine, but not taking my real situation into account, seeing only the external obvious things, refusing to hear what else I have to say?

Aristibule Adams
God will not deliver on an prayer that asks amiss. He's not a trick pony who does what he's told. He says no if the request is wrong, sometimes because of sin, and sometimes for our own good.

Aristobule Adams

Aristibule Adams
I think for us, we still try to protect the faith of the weak. We don't take a Darwinist approach of 'the strong will survive' and try to help them all endure until the end. The strong should carry and protect those who are weak, rather than let them go. That's assuming they're not wolves - wolves we drive out.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
And how do you define "weak", "strong", "wolves" and, apart from excommunication, "drive out"?

Aristibule Adams
'Weak' - anyone whose faith is still growing and might be swayed by sophistry, hardship, scandal.

"Strong" - those who are established in their faith, and are not swayed.

"Wolves" - those who lead astray into heresy, schism, immorality.

"Drive out" - yes. Excommunication and not allowing to enter the churches.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"sophistry," "heresy, schism, immorality"

Would you consider Scholasticism or Creationism such?

Would you consider advocating marriage age lowered back to 14/12 limit such?

Would you consider going back to Roman Catholicism such, when one did not abjure it while becoming Orthodox?


Would you consider priests who forbid parishioners to read the works of a poor internet writer and composer and therefore contributing to his writings remaining off paper and his music remaining unplayed and his condition remaining poor, as a hardship?

There is more than faith, for instance hope and charity, which can suffer due to hardship.


Would you consider it scandalous of a parish priest to give a layman directives to say:

"you need to chose between marriage and monasticism"

and then completely IGNORE what the layman (not priest candidate!) answered and continue to work for the layman remaining in a pseudomonastic situation he had not chosen?

Aristibule Adams
That's kind of all over the place, and suggests personal issues? I don't know why Creationism would be an issue. It is the Patristic stance. The marriage age issue is Roman canon law - tell me when that age was established and why. Tell me if you know what the age is in Eastern canon law and why.

One cannot 'go back' into schism without abjuring Orthodoxy. That's an impossibility. I'm already a Western rite serving priest within the Orthodox Church.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Roman Canon law - inherited from Roman Empire, pre-Christian times. In Russia it had been 1 year higher per sex and was lifted to years more before Revolution, BUT in Russian (grammar of 1914, when there was still Yatch in locative and in Dyeva, the diminutive Dyevushka, meaning marriageable girl, still applied to non-married non-nuns from 12 to 30).

"One cannot 'go back' into schism without abjuring Orthodoxy."

I do not consider Roman Catholicism as schism.

You see, the issue in 1054 is so much less clear than that of 1517, so I wavered, but after some years among Romanian Orthodox, I considered Rome (as in Ancient Rome) had won the debate with me.

The WHY of marriage age : 14/12 is the medium age of puberty for men/women.

Aristibule Adams
Do you know when it became part of the Latin canon law, and what the Eastern canon law age is?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I am certain it has always been part of Latin canon law, since Roman Empire.

I don't think there is a unified Eastern canon law, since Russia untraditionally raised the age in 19th C.

Aristibule Adams
Everything in the East that is the canons is part of the unified canons. We don't do revisions such as the 1917 or 1983. So it should be a simple question if it can be found in the Pedalion, the Apostle's, Father's, Councils of the Church?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I am not a great historian of Eastern canon law.

It was painstaking to get even this together - after my return to RC, btw:

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Where Orthodox Canonists disagree with Catholic ones about Soldiers in War Communicating

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Added later.
" That's kind of all over the place, and suggests personal issues?"

I certainly do have some personal issues with clergy both sides of 1054, due to stopping me from earning money as a writer, due to stopping me in practise from marriage.

Aristibule Adams
What does canonical age have to do with stopping you from marriage?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
As per directly now, nothing.

I was asking if YOU considered my view on canonical age as immoral.

I am fairly sure some of the Communist educated priests I was with between 2006 and 2009 did think that.

Never mind the fact I was interested in girls older than that, some seemed to assume if I wasn't ashamed of the times when it had been otherwise, I must be a great perv or sth.

Aristibule Adams
The canons are a guideline, but we don't use them as an excuse to flaunt civil law - to which we are obedient. The civil laws in most of what was Christendom are now that marriage can be contracted legally at 18, and 16 with parental and court permission when there is some great need. So, I don't think the canon law set that age as a recommended age *for* marriage, but as a limit beyond which the act would be null (irregular). It isn't meant to replace civil law either.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
It was the guideline for civil laws.

Spain had 14/12 limit 100 years ago, now changed to 18, but 14 if younger asks permission of a judge.

Obviously, Papal States had 14/12 to 1870.

If Nettuno had been in Papal States in 1902, I imagine St Maria Goretti would have asked Alessandro Serenelli that day "come on, can't you wait a few months" or even better, he would have made a more decent proposal than he did.

Austria had 21, but 14 with parental consent, for girls.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
[Added next day]
You might want to read this series, the one starting on this link (links to other parts on article):

HGL's F.B. writings : Marital Age and Teen Abortions

general thread

M. D. M.
The same thing has happened in Russia for a very long time. Thankfully the government is restricting these nutters now.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Are you sure that is all there is to J-W in Russia?

If so, what does that say about Orthodox Christianity in Russia?

In Antioch, I can see how the Antiochene Christians can be marginalised enough to not be quite able to support all their poor.

But why would Orthodox in Russia be in a similar position?

M. D. M.
Orthodox Russia has been "under attack" from dozens of protestant cults mostly from the USA who sadly believe Russians "need" to be "saved". Also, for hundreds of years the Roman Catholic Church has been at war with the Russian Orthodox Church. The Romans send missionaries well versed in Orthodox worship to Russia. They set up churches that look and sound like Russian Orthodox Churches. Illiterate Russians have been tricked into joining these false churches. I'm not making this up. It's historical fact.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
In other words, you think Uniates should be restrained too?

Is that it?

M. D. M.
Absolutely! Uniats have no business in Russia!

Hans-Georg Lundahl
OK, so, if Russian Church has nothing to do with shutting up of J-W, certainly laymen belonging to it have.

BUT you have still not answered in what way either Uniates or J-W would be in a position to give so much help to poor which Russian Orthodox themselves cannot give.

M. D. M.
I do not understand your position. Russian Orthodox Christians have never "needed" saving from outsiders. No one who is Orthodox, Russian or not, can be persuaded to leave the Orthodox church.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I was asking you what the Russian case could have to do with Souperism or Rice Christians, see further up the thread.

M. D. M.
I do not understand those terms.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Souperism : trying to convert poor peoples by alms. Rice Christians, people converted by alms.

In Antioch, which the thread is about, that is one thing, but in Russia?

M. D. M.
I think I understand now. I can only speak about Russian Orthodox. I am not as familiar with the Antiochians. I believe it is wrong for anyone to try to convert a person from their faith through "gifts". American protestants go to Russia and try to "save" Russian Orthodox Christians by giving them blankets and food. Those items are appreciated by anyone, of course, but if they are offered with the price of converting from the Russian Orthodox Church the price is too high. I would rather go hungry than lose my faith.

Aristibule Adams
Russia is still in recovery from the wild '90s after the fall of the Soviets.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
After 12 years of Putin in power?

Aristibule Adams
He's had a lot of work to do, and more still needs done.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
That is why I don't think the ban on J-W in Russia is connected to Souperism, except if rumours from elsewhere - or Putin being incompetent or corrupt about economics.

M. D. M.
What is this "Souperism"? Is that something to do with soup?

Aristibule Adams
The ban on the J-Ws and other sects (Scientologists, Satanists, etc.) is related to criminality - they preying on people for money, abuse, breaking up families, etc.

M. D. M.
I don't think Mr. Putin has anything to do with the subject.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"Preying on people for money" sounds like French legislations by atheists trying to stop people from giving donations to monasteries on death beds.

"Souperism" has to do with "soup" or "souper"/"supper".

M. D. M.
Thank you!

Hans-Georg Lundahl
M. D. M., you are welcome!

Same thread
below previous:

The link is broken.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I googled and found no online article outside FB.

There are two relief programs, but nothing else outside FB. And on the relief programs, I did not find the article.

Huh, odd.

Aristibule Adams
It's still on the Christian Post's main page, but the link is getting a 404 error now. I guess someone was unhappy with it.

That was my suspicion. Which disgusts me.

You know how fragile the emotions of evangelicals are

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Wonder if it was emotions of Evangelicals - or Discretion of Orthodox?


Hans-Georg Lundahl
" Fr. Chehadeh said. 'So it is not a nice way, especially in this crisis, to come and to destroy the work of a church, which is for more than 2,000 years in the area."

Perhaps Orthodox got worried about Fr. Chehadeh's confusing "for nearly 2000 years" with "for more than 2000 years"?

I mean, presumably the Antiochene Church in Syria does not date back to AD 17 or earlier?

III In below, I suggested a certain hobby related to my economic issues to Fr. Aristobule Adams. Click to see larger version:

Still no reply on that offer, so far.

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