jeudi 19 mai 2016

Marital Age and Teen Abortions

HGL's F.B. writings : 1) Marital Age and Teen Abortions ; 2) Previous Continued ; Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : 3) Continuing with BG, trying to bring in history, getting a few dialogues on moral issues.

Amanda Lewin is official spokesman of Oxford Prolife, not anonymised. LAG is, to further notice, supposed to be a private person, therefore anonymised. Unless she wants anonymity lifted.

Amanda Lewin (status in group)
Oh so heartbreaking to see FOUR 13 or 14yr old school girls entering the abortion centre. They refused to talk with me and one of them swore at me when I asked her a question..How society has ruined our young. Please pray for them. There is always a dark presence at this place, but today felt especially oppressive and they were kept inside until we left. Lambs to the slaughter, Jesus please protect them! Amen

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Oh so heartbreaking to see FOUR 13 or 14yr old school girls entering the abortion centre. They refused to talk with me and one of them swore at me when I asked her a question..How society has ruined our young.

How often have you protested the unjust marital legislation which says they can't get married till sixteen?

[continued on ensuing comments:]

I have protested this unjust marriage legislation, in Sweden even worse as rule is 18/18, at a great cost in my own life.

"they were kept inside until we left."

That is how ex-pupils, including the one I was hoping to marry, were treated when I was around.

[dialogue answering my first:]

Sorry, am I missing something? How old would you want the marriage age to be?

Amanda Lewin
LAG, hoping Hans-Georg meant much much older...

Amanda Lewin slightly concerned as it doesn't appear so from the other comments, but hoping something is lost in translation!

Amanda Lewin
Sorry, I'm still over tired from yesterday..

Hans-Georg Lundahl
St Thomas Aquinas defended the canonical ages of 14 for male and 12 for female contrahent of marriage.

During 20:th C. either Church or counter-Church raised this just two years - so a girl of 14 at least is even in canon law of 1983 per se marriageable.

Russian Czarist régime seems to have had the intermediate, 15/13. Plus added requirements like not too great disparity of age (not a RC requirement), no marriage without dispensation after 60, no marriage for unmarried or widowers at all after 80.

So, whatever you hoped, you were not just wrong about me, but about Church as well.

As for fact that Roman Catholic Church is more benign to May-September than Russian Orthodox (who, with divorce, might have been having to deal with May-September breaking up in infidelity and new marriages or even worse being a temptation that breaks up marriages) check how different the ages were of St. Francis de Sales' parents.

Amanda Lewin
Sorry but how can this be a) relevant to today's situations and b) be even slightly morally acceptable? Some girls aren't even menstruating at 13, how can they be expected to be sexually active? And it is so incredibly vile and wrong, child abuse actually. D, isn't this against God and all that is good?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"Sorry but how can this be a) relevant to today's situations"

Because of fact that when a 13 year old girl gets pregnant, precisely TODAY she is told that she's too young to have a child.

That is so the opposite of encouraging the girls to be mothers.

"b) be even slightly morally acceptable? Some girls aren't even menstruating at 13, how can they be expected to be sexually active?"

The rule of making 12 minimum age for girls is not requiring all of them to get married as soon as it's legal.

St Thomas says, if a girl is menstruating earlier, she should usually still not be allowed to marry earlier, but if she does and marriage is consumed, it should be respected as a marriage. And on other hand, if due to later development she is not yet menstruating, she should not marry and could under some circumstances a marriage, pre-cocious for her, if there was one, dissolved.

"And it is so incredibly vile and wrong, child abuse actually"


If a girl age 13 can be pregnant, and obviously she can, you just said so yourself, she is not a child anymore.

The fact that she is treated as a child who needs special protection is the excuse for the "shielding" of her from your "menace" (as you surely know they call it) which you rightly deplored.

I was just composing a new melody for Rosa rorans day before yesterday:

musicalia : Rosa rorans

St Bridget was 13 at marriage and 14 at consummation of marriage.

She is usually depicted at an older stage of her life, as a widow - she had 8 (or sth) children.

"D, isn't this against God and all that is good?"

You might want to check with Church tradition rather than modern psychology or D. Or JL.

It is true that the age is set at that in canon law. HOWEVER, it also needs to be said that canon law also dictates that the customs of the country you are in are to be followed. So, if the law of the land is 16, 16 it is.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I think that requirement:

  • a) is from the newer canon code, and possibly from invalid new-Church one;
  • b) may originally have been there to allow Spain (which had 14/12 limit a hundred years ago) to keep a lower limit than newer canon law, if such;
  • c) anyway only defines what is legal, not what should be legal and not what is normal vs perverted.

Amanda Lewin
JL is a lawyer and D is my good friend and worked for the CPS, which is why I called in their opinion.

The fact that a 13yr old girl can physically have a baby does not it morally correct. It's sad to me you think this is acceptable.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
That latter remark of yours implies you consider the Creator has made a mistake.

That is theologically deplorable.

The extreme varieties of menarche are between 9 and 18, excepting what is considered as pathological, but the mean is a few months above 12.

Corresponding for male sex, with a mean a few months above 14.

The curse of Adam may be behind some having a few years to go on mental side even while mature physically, with others having a few years to go physically while mature mentally. But the medium value still must reflect God's original intention.

If God had not wanted any girls to get pregnant at 13, He would have created girls otherwise.

Your lawyer friend should take account of this, and if not be considered as not heeding the natural law.

Hans, regardless of if you accept the 1983 code of Canon Law (which you should, or else you are outside the Church, a schismatic), you cannot deny that maturity has always been a grounds for marriage in the Church, and that for a marriage to be validly contracted, and sacramentally valid, a certain degree of maturity has to be reached. This was, in fact, the reason behind that age limit, and other regulations promulgated at Trent, if memory serves, and I think beforehand, too. Whilst these ages are minimum legal requirements, with which I am actually in total accord, by the way, that does not mean it is right for every person to get married at such a young age.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Yes, indeed. And St Thomas Aquinas argued that the precise maturity required was reached usually at 14/12 limit.

Nor do I suggest that a person maturing more slowly than medium should be marrying at the legal minimum which is done according to observed medium age of maturity.

I think the argument Amanda is making, and rightly, in my opinion, is that most British girls would not be mature enough to marry at 12 (nor most boys at 14). I have to be honest, most of them can't get out of bed on time, let alone get up to feed a baby at 3am. . .

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Oh, that is the very modern misconception of "mental age".

A girl of 13 is by God meant to be a mother and by society forced into a false position of prolonged "immaturity" status and treated as a child.

They take their revenge, that is NOT immaturity.

Hans-Georg Lundahl (added later)
Amanda Lewin, as to your words "And it is so incredibly vile and wrong, child abuse actually" I will tell you what actually is so: CPS as it is being handled in too many cases.

Taking away children or teens from their parents is child abuse and youth abose, most times it happens in Norway or Sweden.

Amanda Lewin
Yes it is but we're not discussing that are we? We are discussing the fact you think it is okay for a CHILD to have a baby. You can't be a father.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
No, it is NOT a fact I think it is okay for a CHILD to have a baby. Before puberty you are a child and God did not create you so you could have babies before puberty.

But you are right I am not a father, evil men have stopped me from becoming one, by stopping me from getting a wife, either as parents of concerned girls or as people councelling those parents or as people generally councelling about me and doing so usually behind my back.

That is what I meant by saying that I have paid a great price in my life for affirming the right of teens to marry, which is a truly pro-life statement.

You were just giving a pro-abortion argument, while saying it is immoral of me to think it "okay for a CHILD to have a baby".

Well, if it isn't ok, why object to those doing sth about it?

But if you are correct to so object, and you are, why is it not ok for a not indeed child but teen to have children and husband or wife?

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