Dishonesty on part of Creationist Group Run by a Protestant? + Discussion of Apollo the Delphic

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Yes, here is one of the Biblical indications that Apollo is for real - as in a real demon.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I think I posted another comment here, on back when I read Latin, Aeneid VI, for a Dozent who is also a Catholic priest, and he brought up above after the description of the Cumaean sibyl had been read (a description of her being acutely possessed by Apollo, inspired by real scenes Virgil must have seen), and noting the above passage.

Was I misplacing this comment under another thread, or was some moderator deleting it?

Mark Jonczy

I fail to see the relevance. Scripture says what it says.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"possessed with a spirit of divination" = St Luke's words.

Aeneid VI shows a person in a similar position, getting possessed (while Virgil hadn't been in Cumae in Aeneas' time, he had seen sibyls) and Aeneid VI tells us the name of THE generic spirit of divination : Apollo.

In other words, this is one of the places where the Bible identifies the false god Apollo as a demon.

What St Basil Was and What he Was Not Against

HGL's F.B. writings : What St Basil Was and What he Was Not Against · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... on St. Basil

Dave Bestul

13 mai, 21:47

"The philosophers of Greece have made much ado to explain nature, and not one of their systems has remained firm and unshaken, each being overturned by its successor. It is vain to refute them; they are sufficient in themselves to destroy one another. Those who were too ignorant to rise to a knowledge of a God, could not allow that an intelligent cause presided at the birth of the Universe; a primary error that involved them in sad consequences. Some had recourse to material principles and attributed the origin of the Universe to the elements of the world. Others imagined that atoms, and indivisible bodies, molecules and ducts, form, by their union, the nature of the visible world. Atoms reuniting or separating, produce births and deaths and the most durable bodies only owe their consistency to the strength of their mutual adhesion: a true spider's web woven by these writers who give to heaven, to earth, and to sea so weak an origin and so little consistency! It is because they knew not how to say In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Deceived by their inherent atheism it appeared to them that nothing governed or ruled the universe, and that was all was given up to chance. To guard us against this error the writer on the creation, from the very first words, enlightens our understanding with the name of God; In the beginning God created. What a glorious order!"

St. Basil the Great
Homily on the Hexaemeron

GB

Basil of Caesaria has the best homilies against evolution. Loved it 💙

Here is another:

‘Avoid the nonsense of those arrogant philosophers who do not blush to liken their soul to that of a dog; who say that they have been formerly themselves women, shrubs, fish. Have they ever been fish? I do not know; but I do not fear to affirm that in their writings they show less sense than fish.’ (Homily VIII:2)

‘I know the laws of allegory, though less by myself than from the works of others. There are those truly, who do not admit the common sense of the Scriptures, for whom water is not water, but some other nature, who see in a plant, in a fish, what their fancy wishes, who change the nature of reptiles and of wild beasts to suit their allegories, like the interpreters of dreams who explain visions in sleep to make them serve their own ends. For me grass is grass; plant, fish, wild beast, domestic animal, I take all in the literal sense. “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel” [Rom. 1:16].’ (Homily IX:1)

Dave Bestul

Excellent stuff, GB!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

St Basil is here of course referring not to ALL Greek philosophers, but to the pre-Socratics and Democritus.

As to Plato - some Church Fathers regarded him as a disciple of Moses.

I forget who said of Timaeus "Moses speaking Greek".

"Avoid the nonsense of those arrogant philosophers who do not blush to liken their soul to that of a dog; who say that they have been formerly themselves women, shrubs, fish."

Pythagoras, still not Plato.

"‘I know the laws of allegory, though less by myself than from the works of others. There are those truly, who do not admit the common sense of the Scriptures"

Note, he is here speaking against, not St Augustine, to whom BOTH letter AND allegory are holy, but against Origen, who was - reputedly at least - "allegory, yes, letter, no".

St Augustine was also against that idea.

"Basil of Caesaria has the best homilies against evolution."

Does he ever mention it?

Or, you meant "prefuting" it?

With Aristobule Adams

Difference between "sodomy" and "homosexuality" · With an Orthodox Priest on Lenin, Putin, KGB and the Orthodox I Met · With Aristobule Adams

I

Aristibule Adams

April 20 at 9:11pm

[my debate ended

April 24 at 4:00pm]·

Strange days - Catholics who believe what Catholics used to believe are now called 'Pelagians', and Orthodox who believe what Orthodox have always believed are called 'Bogomils'.

Some comments

lower ....

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If Orthodox have prayed for me to not have a wife, if Orthodox have considered it sinful of me to deal with my inchastity by seeking a wife, well, then Orthodox have acted like Bogomils.

Aristibule Adams

What's stopping you from getting a wife?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I do not know what is stopping me each single time, why this girl stopped seeing me, why that girl stopped seeing me, why this other person would suddenly not look at my compositions, why yet another person had wanted to look at my writings in purpose of possible publication and gave it up - but these things happened.

So did things like being inconveniently in love with two girls at once, probably having sth to do with lack of sleep and loss of hope.

So did things like being interested in one girl, being a bit shy to ask in my situation, hoping for another girl and ONLY just giving her up when the first one was married or engaged to someone else.

If mother blessed me to do what I wanted, since I wanted to marry, unless something had interfered with my mother's blessing, I should be married now.

So, I guess some crook has abused Divine Liturgy to pray for me staying celibate.

Aristibule Adams

That's not how we use petitions in the Divine Liturgy anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

There is nothing like specific intentions?

Aristibule Adams

Not in the Eastern rite. We still have the optional phrase in our Western rite texts where the priest can announce special prayer intentions immediately before the Orare Fratres (et Sorores). But even that is something publicly announced, not private, and would be very inappropriate to offer an intention for someone not to marry. I imagine any laity who heard such a thing would report it to the Dean or Bishop post-haste.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What if a priest were to think of me while praying for the monks (mistakenly beliving me to be a monk)?

Aristibule Adams

God answers the prayers of the righteous, and the righteous only pray righteous prayers. It isn't magic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK.

What if x has made sure that y who is righteous thinks I am unrighteous and also made sure I stumble on sth so that I really will be so?

Aristibule Adams

God is all knowing. In any case, we should pray not our will, but His - as God's Will is perfect. Fiat voluntas tua. Yes?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Yes.

And no, for two reasons:

• if I am not truly of my heart submitting to God's will, I am a hypocrite for saying it;
• while a Christian in the state of Sanctifying Grace certainly is submitting to God's will, this does not automatically exclude his own will, except in cases of a perceived contradiction (Our Lord did not say we must act like He in Gethsemane each time we pray Our Father, more like we must have a general readiness for it).

The first of these is why, not having a wife and not seeing things go my way, I renounced the Rosary for long, not daring to pray the Our Fathers, content with three Hail Mary, if as much as that.

So, what if someone else's prayer is more righteous than mine, but not taking my real situation into account, seeing only the external obvious things, refusing to hear what else I have to say?

Aristibule Adams

God will not deliver on an prayer that asks amiss. He's not a trick pony who does what he's told. He says no if the request is wrong, sometimes because of sin, and sometimes for our own good.

II

Aristobule Adams

shared

https://www.facebook.com/HolyCrossOrthodoxMonastery/posts/10154669525943583

Aristibule Adams

I think for us, we still try to protect the faith of the weak. We don't take a Darwinist approach of 'the strong will survive' and try to help them all endure until the end. The strong should carry and protect those who are weak, rather than let them go. That's assuming they're not wolves - wolves we drive out.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

And how do you define "weak", "strong", "wolves" and, apart from excommunication, "drive out"?

Aristibule Adams

'Weak' - anyone whose faith is still growing and might be swayed by sophistry, hardship, scandal.

"Strong" - those who are established in their faith, and are not swayed.

"Wolves" - those who lead astray into heresy, schism, immorality.

"Drive out" - yes. Excommunication and not allowing to enter the churches.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"sophistry," "heresy, schism, immorality"

Would you consider Scholasticism or Creationism such?

Would you consider advocating marriage age lowered back to 14/12 limit such?

Would you consider going back to Roman Catholicism such, when one did not abjure it while becoming Orthodox?

"hardship"

Would you consider priests who forbid parishioners to read the works of a poor internet writer and composer and therefore contributing to his writings remaining off paper and his music remaining unplayed and his condition remaining poor, as a hardship?

There is more than faith, for instance hope and charity, which can suffer due to hardship.

"scandal"

Would you consider it scandalous of a parish priest to give a layman directives to say:

"you need to chose between marriage and monasticism"

and then completely IGNORE what the layman (not priest candidate!) answered and continue to work for the layman remaining in a pseudomonastic situation he had not chosen?

Aristibule Adams

That's kind of all over the place, and suggests personal issues? I don't know why Creationism would be an issue. It is the Patristic stance. The marriage age issue is Roman canon law - tell me when that age was established and why. Tell me if you know what the age is in Eastern canon law and why.

One cannot 'go back' into schism without abjuring Orthodoxy. That's an impossibility. I'm already a Western rite serving priest within the Orthodox Church.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roman Canon law - inherited from Roman Empire, pre-Christian times. In Russia it had been 1 year higher per sex and was lifted to years more before Revolution, BUT in Russian (grammar of 1914, when there was still Yatch in locative and in Dyeva, the diminutive Dyevushka, meaning marriageable girl, still applied to non-married non-nuns from 12 to 30).

"One cannot 'go back' into schism without abjuring Orthodoxy."

I do not consider Roman Catholicism as schism.

You see, the issue in 1054 is so much less clear than that of 1517, so I wavered, but after some years among Romanian Orthodox, I considered Rome (as in Ancient Rome) had won the debate with me.

The WHY of marriage age : 14/12 is the medium age of puberty for men/women.

Aristibule Adams

Do you know when it became part of the Latin canon law, and what the Eastern canon law age is?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am certain it has always been part of Latin canon law, since Roman Empire.

I don't think there is a unified Eastern canon law, since Russia untraditionally raised the age in 19th C.

Aristibule Adams

Everything in the East that is the canons is part of the unified canons. We don't do revisions such as the 1917 or 1983. So it should be a simple question if it can be found in the Pedalion, the Apostle's, Father's, Councils of the Church?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am not a great historian of Eastern canon law.

It was painstaking to get even this together - after my return to RC, btw:

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Where Orthodox Canonists disagree with Catholic ones about Soldiers in War Communicating
http://filolohika.blogspot.fr/p/where-orthodox-canonists-disagree-with.html

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Added later.

" That's kind of all over the place, and suggests personal issues?"

I certainly do have some personal issues with clergy both sides of 1054, due to stopping me from earning money as a writer, due to stopping me in practise from marriage.

Aristibule Adams

What does canonical age have to do with stopping you from marriage?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

As per directly now, nothing.

I was asking if YOU considered my view on canonical age as immoral.

I am fairly sure some of the Communist educated priests I was with between 2006 and 2009 did think that.

Never mind the fact I was interested in girls older than that, some seemed to assume if I wasn't ashamed of the times when it had been otherwise, I must be a great perv or sth.

Aristibule Adams

The canons are a guideline, but we don't use them as an excuse to flaunt civil law - to which we are obedient. The civil laws in most of what was Christendom are now that marriage can be contracted legally at 18, and 16 with parental and court permission when there is some great need. So, I don't think the canon law set that age as a recommended age *for* marriage, but as a limit beyond which the act would be null (irregular). It isn't meant to replace civil law either.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

It was the guideline for civil laws.

Spain had 14/12 limit 100 years ago, now changed to 18, but 14 if younger asks permission of a judge.

Obviously, Papal States had 14/12 to 1870.

If Nettuno had been in Papal States in 1902, I imagine St Maria Goretti would have asked Alessandro Serenelli that day "come on, can't you wait a few months" or even better, he would have made a more decent proposal than he did.

Austria had 21, but 14 with parental consent, for girls.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[Added next day]

You might want to read this series, the one starting on this link (links to other parts on article):

HGL's F.B. writings : Marital Age and Teen Abortions
http://hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2016/05/marital-age-and-teen-abortions.html

Same

general thread

M. D. M.

The same thing has happened in Russia for a very long time. Thankfully the government is restricting these nutters now.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Are you sure that is all there is to J-W in Russia?

If so, what does that say about Orthodox Christianity in Russia?

In Antioch, I can see how the Antiochene Christians can be marginalised enough to not be quite able to support all their poor.

But why would Orthodox in Russia be in a similar position?

M. D. M.

Orthodox Russia has been "under attack" from dozens of protestant cults mostly from the USA who sadly believe Russians "need" to be "saved". Also, for hundreds of years the Roman Catholic Church has been at war with the Russian Orthodox Church. The Romans send missionaries well versed in Orthodox worship to Russia. They set up churches that look and sound like Russian Orthodox Churches. Illiterate Russians have been tricked into joining these false churches. I'm not making this up. It's historical fact.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

In other words, you think Uniates should be restrained too?

Is that it?

M. D. M.

Absolutely! Uniats have no business in Russia!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, so, if Russian Church has nothing to do with shutting up of J-W, certainly laymen belonging to it have.

BUT you have still not answered in what way either Uniates or J-W would be in a position to give so much help to poor which Russian Orthodox themselves cannot give.

M. D. M.

I do not understand your position. Russian Orthodox Christians have never "needed" saving from outsiders. No one who is Orthodox, Russian or not, can be persuaded to leave the Orthodox church.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I was asking you what the Russian case could have to do with Souperism or Rice Christians, see further up the thread.

M. D. M.

I do not understand those terms.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Souperism : trying to convert poor peoples by alms. Rice Christians, people converted by alms.

In Antioch, which the thread is about, that is one thing, but in Russia?

M. D. M.

I think I understand now. I can only speak about Russian Orthodox. I am not as familiar with the Antiochians. I believe it is wrong for anyone to try to convert a person from their faith through "gifts". American protestants go to Russia and try to "save" Russian Orthodox Christians by giving them blankets and food. Those items are appreciated by anyone, of course, but if they are offered with the price of converting from the Russian Orthodox Church the price is too high. I would rather go hungry than lose my faith.

Aristibule Adams

Russia is still in recovery from the wild '90s after the fall of the Soviets.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

After 12 years of Putin in power?

Aristibule Adams

He's had a lot of work to do, and more still needs done.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

That is why I don't think the ban on J-W in Russia is connected to Souperism, except if rumours from elsewhere - or Putin being incompetent or corrupt about economics.

M. D. M.

What is this "Souperism"? Is that something to do with soup?

Aristibule Adams

The ban on the J-Ws and other sects (Scientologists, Satanists, etc.) is related to criminality - they preying on people for money, abuse, breaking up families, etc.

M. D. M.

I don't think Mr. Putin has anything to do with the subject.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Preying on people for money" sounds like French legislations by atheists trying to stop people from giving donations to monasteries on death beds.

"Souperism" has to do with "soup" or "souper"/"supper".

M. D. M.

Thank you!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

M. D. M., you are welcome!

Same thread

below previous:

KD

The link is broken.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

https://www.facebook.com/HolyCrossOrthodoxMonastery/posts/10154669525943583

I googled and found no online article outside FB.

There are two relief programs, but nothing else outside FB. And on the relief programs, I did not find the article.

KD

Huh, odd.

Aristibule Adams

It's still on the Christian Post's main page, but the link is getting a 404 error now. I guess someone was unhappy with it.

KD

That was my suspicion. Which disgusts me.

PhM

You know how fragile the emotions of evangelicals are

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Wonder if it was emotions of Evangelicals - or Discretion of Orthodox?

Lower

down:

Hans-Georg Lundahl

" Fr. Chehadeh said. 'So it is not a nice way, especially in this crisis, to come and to destroy the work of a church, which is for more than 2,000 years in the area."

Perhaps Orthodox got worried about Fr. Chehadeh's confusing "for nearly 2000 years" with "for more than 2000 years"?

I mean, presumably the Antiochene Church in Syria does not date back to AD 17 or earlier?

III In below, I suggested a certain hobby related to my economic issues to Fr. Aristobule Adams. Click to see larger version:



Still no reply on that offer, so far.

On Debating with Different Atheists in Different Situations

Evolution 2.0

17 février

After ten years of debating with atheists, would you still be a Christian?

[Linked to http://premier.org.uk/whychrist

what now redirects to

https://www.premierchristianradio.com/Features/Unbelievable-The-Conference-2017 ]

HGL

"After ten years of debating with atheists, would you still be a Christian?"

I have been debating atheists and other evolutionists + protestants for 16 years over internet.

I am still Catholic and YEC. I soon became and still am Geocentric.

Why exactly is the publication of Perry Marshall termed Evolution 2.0?

NM

The internet is not the same because the written word lacks emotional wealth and you are often not invested in your connection with your interlocutor. I have atheist friends who hit me with every stereotypical talking point when we meet up and what's frustrating is that they not only believe that "absence of God" is simply a "default" belief (see the subthread of David Valentine's comment for a stunning example), but they also often go one further and extend this "default" "obvious" worldview to secular humanist "freethinking" altogether. So to even try to make a point I would have to express a view I hold that they consider so offensive and repugnant (wrongly in my view) that I fear losing the friendship, even though they do not hesitate to belittle everything I believe in and love in front of me without ever thinking they might be engaging in what they often claim to hate.

HGL

Why do you stay friends with such guys in the first place?

I am debating atheists over internet, but I am when confronted with that kind of type free not to engage in friendship.

FSt

(Slavic / Balkan*)

^what he said, if you really cant communicate with your friends no matter the reason then why be friends, i and my atheist best friend for example can have a meaningful conversation without pissing each other off

MK

(Lithuanian)

so basically you've shut yourself from reality, congratulations

StF

(Italian)

NM It is perfectly possible to debate with serenity and kindness, without falling into rudeness and insults, even having very different positions.

HGL

MK - you mean engaging in friendship with atheists and giving up any resistance to their evolution memes is what it takes to not be shut off from reality?

St - you may be perfectly right, but MK just showed he was NOT the kind of atheist to do that, and you didn't notice, and how about telling that to the atheist friends of NM, instead of telling it to him?

* While I anonymised names behind acronyms, I thought it was interesting to note presumable heritage. For NM, some Jewish could be suspected, but not immediately, nor is it necessary. The ones I put in parentheses are linguistically certain, whether they live in respective parts of Europe or are American.

On Statesmen of Europe (Elected Ones)

EZ

(status)

Macron, the newly elected French president, has no children.
German chancellor Angela Merkel has no children.
British prime minister Theresa May has no children.
Italian prime minister Paolo Gentiloni has no children.
Holland’s Mark Rutte, Sweden’s Stefan Löfven, Luxembour’s Xavier Bettel, Scotland’s Nicola Sturgeon—all have no children.
Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, has no children.
So a grossly disproportionate number of the people making decisions about Europe’s future have no direct personal stake in that future.

EW

Adolf Hitler had no children.........that we know of. But I understand your point

PG

Thought Hitler had that war daughter in Belgium? Or is that just (((hogwash)))?

EZ

No sir. But he was he exception to the rule if you will

PG

Okay

RM

No doubt the Boss would have been in baby production with Eva if things turned out right.

HGL

If they survived the bunker, perhaps they were, so much the better for them if so!

__________

PG

Perhaps in the future Whites will demand their kings be married with children before ascending the throne?

HGL

In the Middle Ages, precisely royals often had arranged marriages and while having children before getting on throne was not required, there was a general ban on anti-conceptive practises of any kind available - still in force, still believed by all, it is of course still there as law of God.

RM

Under the policies of these Globalists, what non-Muslim children there are in Europe have no future.

RS

Very interesting

SB

I don't see the problem here. I mean, do we really want these people multiplying?

HGL

Yes, since their bad morals are from individual choices, not from bad genetics, and since with better morals in having children (I have been deprived of opportunity after opportunity of marriage), they might also have had better morals in politics.

EZ

We don't want to see *them* multiply--we want leaders that make decisions that have personal consequences for those they love and act accordingly

HGL

I agree we might not want to see them multiply in the role of rulers.

But I think they would do well to multiply in the role of family members.

HGL

"Macron, the newly elected French president, has no children."

Does former other candidate, Marine, have any?

HMcG

2 daughters and a son.

HGL

Ah, that is at least somewhat better!

I knew her niece had one recently and is marrying or has married its father.

HMcG

Louis, Mathilde, and Jehanne

HGL

Not bad choices of names.

I knew of course that a better FN former candidate had children:

Bruno Gollnisch est marié depuis le 24 octobre 1981 à Setsuko Takeuchi, une Japonaise3 rencontrée en France et devenue française par la suite49. Ils ont trois enfants : Cordélia, avocate, Alexis, officier de marine, et Claire3. En 2007, en même temps que leur père, les enfants obtiennent de changer leur nom en Gollnisch-Flourens3.

But of course, Bruno's brother is a Catholic priest, so you expect good manners there!

HP

(not from Hogwarts)

wow have to copy and share that is amazing

OL

(not a socker club in Lyons)

sehr gut formuliert.

HP

(not from Hogwarts)

maybe thats now considered a virtue when voting in europe

HGL

EZ, I just found out sth about one great rival of Hitler, whom I prefer:

"There Engelbert met Alwine Glienke (1897–1973), a German woman from a Protestant family, whom he married in 1921.[2] The couple had one son and two daughters, with one daughter dying during early childhood."

From the article:

Engelbert Dollfuss - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engelbert_Dollfuss

Btw, a greatgranddaughter of Dollfuß I used to know on FB was voting Tzipi Livni in her other country - which means we have a clue why Hitler wanted Dollfuss out of the way : he may have thought politics was about genes.

EZ

Dollfuss was an autocrat in a negative sense; he didn't rule by popular decree and with and for the will/good of the people, hence few tears were shed at his dispatch

HGL

In Austria there was no popular decree.

En lengua romance en Antimodernism y de mis caminaciones : Austria fuit olim divisa in factiones tres ...
http://enfrancaissurantimodernism.blogspot.fr/2013/04/austria-fuit-olim-divisa-in-factiones.html

EZ

That was solved in 1938

HGL

In a bad way.

GB

How could most EU-parliamentarians en EU politicians be described?

Self-aggrandizement and human megalomania cause hurt and harm to others, not blessing and joy.They are mere human beings, trapped in a human frame of reference. For such a human to seek his or her own glory is narcissism in purest form. Human egotism is constantly on display. And, if we are honest, we know that we seek our own glory as a reflex.

So most not having children, they decide "indifferent" to open the borders of the EU. They decide that its their "Legacy" to create a new race and their names become immortal in History. Are we allowing this to happen?

[Meme about this]

KG

No share button.

HP

(not from Hogwarts)

its a private post to his friends

HGL

[shared link]

AL-W

I never thought about that.

RT

(not a TV channel)

EZ : you are so right!

AW

Didn't see this coming AW [AL-W?]

KB

I need to share this...

HGL

Why not share the whole dialogue?

[shared link again]