lundi 22 janvier 2018

Debating Göbekli Tepe as Tower of Babel

Kevin Bruce
Status in group
How high was the tower of bable before it fell? Also, where was the tower?

Jon Learen
Plain of Shinar. Size unknown, nor does it matter.

Kevin Bruce
Can you show it on a modern map?

Jon Learen
Idk where in modern Iraq that may be.

Kevin Bruce
So... No satalite photo?

Whitney Eslick Manuel

Kevin Bruce

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Gobekli Tepe
Ancient site near Urfa, Turkey,+Da%C4%9Fete%C4%9Fi+Mahallesi,+63290+Haliliye%2F%C5%9Eanl%C4%B1urfa,+Turquie/@37.2127828,39.3677901,9.33z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x15346502fe912231:0x24d422700430381a!8m2!3d37.2170459!4d38.8542544

Kevin Bruce
Doesn't look like a tower.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
If you followed my other comments here [see below, but earlier, also I think other thread], I am not claiming the tower left any ruins there.

I am claiming "a tower THE TOP OF WHICH reaches into heaven" describes a three step rocket.

The Bible says they ceased to build the city, and Göbekli Tepe has been deliberately covered up after abandonment.

Obviously, if I am right, the ones covering up Göbekli Tepe would have had a motive to remove all traces of the rocket as such.

Also, it is fairly possible that baked bricks of Göbekli Tepe were removed to a later construction - supposing the carbon dating is skewed by a rising carbon level and that there were really just centuries to the oldest constructions with baked bricks that we find.

Ty McCullough
It was in Iraq. Which is why our army took it over. The wierdo's want to rebuild babylon and the wierdo's control everything

Jack Stargel
It was on the Plains of Shinar in Iraq, a stone's throw from where Saddam Hussein built his main residential compound.

Kevin Bruce
So.... You should be able to show it on a map, yes?

Jack Stargel
Sure, and so could you with a little effort.

John Edgar Erasmus
How high it was is irrelevant, the point was mans rebellion in that they did not populate the earth. They stayed in one place, after the babel event the worlds first "global" government collapsed

Kyle Rutherford
There was no babel event.

John Edgar Erasmus

Kevin Bruce
Great John, but I actually asked. I want to know if the story is real. It seems we should be able to point to debris from this massive structure.

John Edgar Erasmus
Kevin Bruce.
There is no guarantee that the structure would still be standing as later peoples could have used it for building materials. If it was Gods will to have that piece in the Bible, I believe it.

If your looking for evidence of other Biblical events such as the 10 plaques in Egypt or the Red Sea crossing you won't need to look far as the BBC have documentaries on this.

Kevin Bruce
So you can't find it? When structures fall down some of the building materials break. Where is the rubble?

John Edgar Erasmus
Kevin Bruce .
I haven't looked and have no intention on looking for it.

We all know where the rubble of the twin towers are ( no offense)

To be honest with you I am past the "prove it stage" of my faith. Evolution vs Creation.....

The self replicating, error correcting storage and retrieval molecule we call DNA has closed that chapter for me.

My next phase is getting to know the word and the application thereof.

Kevin Bruce
Thanks for being no help at all.

Andrew Owen
Babel I think you mean🤣 you can read all about in Genesis ch 11

Kevin Bruce
Yes I can but sadly the Bible doesn't have any satalite pictures...

John Edgar Erasmus
But does call the globe a sphere, gives a clear indication of electricity and the hydrological cycle

Kevin Bruce
Does it now?

Wonder why the growth in biblical flat Earth...

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Biblical flat earth is probably Talmudic flat earth - because Jews are converting.

John Edgar Erasmus
Kevin Bruce cause they haven't read Isaiah

Kevin Bruce
The word Chung comes to mind...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Randy Frazier
The Tower of Babel FOUND?

[Find out what Greek historian Herodotus recorded about the Tower of Babel. Visit for more "Small Videos. Big Facts," about creation science.]

Kevin Bruce
That was basically useless.

Randy Frazier

Kevin Bruce
It's a minute long and doesn't answer any of my questions.

Randy Frazier
Some Very Compelling Evidence the Tower of Babel Was Real
Smithsonian Channel

[Biblical scholars have long debated whether the Tower of Babel really existed. Now, a remarkable stone tablet never before shown on film appears to settle that question.]

Nimrod and the Tower of Babel
Truth Center

[The Bible speaks of Nimrod being a great ruler on Earth after the flood. Nimrod was connected to ancient gods and bloodlines all through the Nephilim placing himself in this Nephilim/Anti-Christ. If you have a video idea then comment down below and if you want to see more videos then check out my channel and subscribe.]

More Curious is the question of How many names did the Evil King Nimrod=Gilgamesh=Nebachanezer, have? The Tower has been FOUND.

Derrick Hood
There are many ruins which people have claimed were the Tower of Babel, but the consensus is that the structure which best fits the description is a structure called the Ziggurat of Eridu.

Randy Frazier

The Sumerians are not More Ancient than the Flood of Noah's Time that was World Wide. lol They just SAY that to ATTEMPT to discredit the Scriptures of the REAL His Story of the Universe and everything in it.

Most likely the Tower of Babel was akin to what they are doing with the CERN Facilities now a days.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"How high was the tower of bable before it fell?"

It doesn't say it fell:

[8] And so the Lord scattered them from that place into all lands, and they ceased to build the city. [9] And therefore the name thereof was called Babel, because there the language of the whole earth was confounded: and from thence the Lord scattered them abroad upon the face of all countries.

It also doesn't say they ceased to build the tower, just that they ceased to build the city.

My hunch is, the tower of which the top reaches into heaven describes a three step rocket.

It is an invention which recently has gone very high above us - the "top of the tower" that is - from Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur.

I think Nimrod was hoping to use Uranium for rocket fuel, which is why God sent the ice age to cover up Uranium mines of Canada.

I think he knew of Uranium from bombings having happened in a pre-Flood Mahabharata like war.

When the more recent tries were made, for one thing, the rocket fuel was less dangerous, and for another, humanity being already dispersed and multiplied, we didn't risk any more to make rockets a one world dictator's project.

Hence, it has gone very high very recently.

" Also, where was the tower?"

I got this hunch when someone had described features of Göbekli Tepe as a "rocket ramp".

So, my vote goes to Göbekli Tepe.

Randy Frazier
Lol. Nope. It was Gilgamesh=Babel. The City that Nimrod Founded.

That lies in Iraq. It does not mean there was only 1 though. The CERN Facilities they are attempting to breach the Veil with today are all over the World.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
" Can you show it on a modern map?"

Any thing between Euphrates and Tigris after they have flown down from the mountains.

Göbekli Tepe fits that bill, even if it is not Iraq, but eastern Turkey.

Also, to Randy Frazier, Babel here and Babel = Babylon are not same Hebrew word, just homophones.


Gilgamesh is not even a place, but a hero, possibly Nimrod, but certainly NOT a place he founded.

Derrick Hood, " There are many ruins which people have claimed were the Tower of Babel,"

While it only says the city was ceased from being built.

Not that the tower left any ruins.

"but the consensus is that the structure which best fits the description is a structure called the Ziggurat of Eridu."

It's top reaches into heaven only optically, if you view it from the foot.

BUT in the case of rockets, the top reaches into heaven physically.

Ziggurat of Eridu ...

"Amar-Sin's reign is notable for his attempt at regenerating the ancient sites of Sumer. He apparently worked on the unfinished ziggurat at Eridu.[4] Eridu was abandoned during his reign [reference needed]"

Two problems :

  • 1) he is named in and spoke Sumerian, a post-Babel language
  • 2) if anything in it is carbon dated to c. 2000 BC, this is a carbon date way too recent for the real dates of Babel according to my tables of carbon rise.

Richard Ray
These towers to heaven or to the heavens were probably the worship of heavenly bodies such as the planets. Ziggurats containing levels that correlate to the planets may be examples of these temples where the practice of worshiping these heavenly bodies were actually called "temples to the heavens". Check out the Ziggurats of Ur, etc.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
" Ziggurats"

Ziggurat of Ur is impossible, unless pre-Babel language was Sumerian, which I think very unlikely.

Give one Ziggurat which is dated to earlier than any Sumerian text tablets.

Kevin Bruce
Richard Ray the problem with that theory is that as far as we can tell the outer planets were not known to these peoples.

Richard Ray
They knew about 8 of the planets. They were called wandering stars. They were objects of curiosity and heavenly bodies that were worshiped, sought out by astrologers and read as similar to comets as having significance as they passed through the constellations. You can see 8 planets with the naked eye in a dark place well away from city lights.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"as far as we can tell the outer planets were not known to these peoples."


1) Moon, 2) Mercury, 3) Venus, 4) Sun, 5) Mars, 6) Jupiter, 7) Saturn, 8) Fix Stars.

Of these only the last is not a planet - in the old sense of the word.

Richard Ray
I'm pretty sure that they knew about Neptune and Uranus. Uranus is definitely visible to the unaided eye and I myself have found it by eye so that I could line up my telescope get close before starting my alignment. Neptune is more difficult but there is no reason to believe that it cannot be seen if it is dark enough. L’image contient peut-être : nuit L’image contient peut-être : nuit, ciel et plein air
Hans-Georg Lundahl
Uranus is normally not visible to the unaided eye, perhaps you had long photo exposure.

Or mislabelled another celestial body as Uranus.

Richard Ray
I recall seeing it and then tracking it in a challenge from Astrology mag or blog. Similar to this one on Neptune which I have never seen with the unaided eye. Astro Challenge Night You can use this map to help you spot the tool bag tonight (Dec. 3). Times are shown every… I'm pretty sure this was the night give or take that I found Uranus with the unaided eye and then the telescope. I remember the greenish hue when viewed with the telescope and I'm sure that the line up was scaled correctly by the computerized finder I use. I used a two star alignment after being centered and leveled on true north. Then I told the computer to find Uranus and it scanned right to the planet I was looking at, having done a little gazing before entering the search into the "goto" computer.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"For our second challenge, we return to Neptune. This one’s a double-edged sword because we’ll use the moon to find the planet, but the moon’s brightness may make it harder to see. Still, we’re only talking a crescent moon, so maybe Neptune will survive the glare.

"If you have binoculars with 50mm lenses or larger, it’s definitely worth a try."

With binoculars = NOT with the naked eye.

"This week, the planet Uranus is only 1.77 billion miles from earth. Believe it or not, that’s close enough to see it. Normally, Uranus can barely be seen with the naked eye on a very dark, clear night. The tricky part is having a dark enough sky – and knowing exactly where to look. This week gives us an even better chance to see Uranus, due to it’s “close” proximity to earth."

Granted - but also said to be exceptional.

Richard Ray
But imagine how dark the sky was in ancient times. You know, no city lights anywhere. I'd imagine in North Korea you can see Uranus any time you look up in the night....

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Except you missed the point that one must also know where to look.

Richard Ray
If, under a very dark sky, an object is seen in a constellation that is not always in the same place in that constellation, it is a roaming star and people who watch the sky will take note of that "roaming star" once it's been noticed. Once it's noticed, it is now known where to look and to take note of where it is now.

So we now know that:

  • 1. It can be seen with the naked eye under very dark skies.
  • 2. The ancients looked for "roaming stars" because they held beliefs that these "roaming stars" had meaningful movements.
  • 3. Once a "roaming star" was noticed, it was tracked by astrologers who's job it was to know where all the "roaming stars" were.

It is not reasonable to say that because the skies aren't usually dark enough today and they weren't dark enough in the past to 1. notice, 2. watch and track, such objects of interest.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
" If, under a very dark sky, an object is seen in a constellation that is not always in the same place in that constellation, it is a roaming star and people who watch the sky will take note of that "roaming star" once it's been noticed." - Key word, once it has been noticed.

Uranus if known back then would need to have been forgotten in the meantime.

Richard Ray
And you're saying you know that Uranus was not known even though it could be seen and the ancients were interested in tracking such objects. You may be right. But I'm not as sure as you seem to be that the planet (roaming star) was not observed.

Ancient Ziggurats - Background Bible Study (Bible History Online)

[The Ziggurat was a word which means "mountain top" and in the ancient world it was a pyramid which was constructed in stages, with a Temple at the top. It was believed that the gods dwelt at the top and they called this "The Mountain Of The World." The Gods dwelt at the peak of the mountain top and strangely enough the colors of each stage of the Ziggurat were the seven different colors of the rainbow.]

[Personal warning of site : ties in table of nations with race theories not its object.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Do you mean because of "The great Ziggurat of the Seven Spheres"?

1) Moon, 2) Mercury, 3) Venus, 4) Sun, 5) Mars, 6) Jupiter, 7) Saturn.

No Uranus needed.

Richard Ray
Yes those Ziggurats. They actually have enough levels to represent 8 planets. There are some who claim at least on outer planet. They have 8 levels and the in 18th Century the levels or spheres were assigned to 7. I'm fully aware of that research and the claim.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
8 levels? 8th one could represent fix stars.

Richard Ray
All beside the point. No need to rehash assignments. The facts are to be interpreted and you interpret the fact that even thought the planet could be seen, it was alas never seen. Good enough. We don't agree.

|9 level Ziggurat
L’image contient peut-être : ciel, nuage et plein air|

Hans-Georg Lundahl
[on nine level ziggurat] Star[t]ing with atmosphere, I suppose.

Look, ziggurats are very interesting but I don't think Tower of Babel was one of them.

Kevin Bruce
Looks small compared to the pyramids...

Hans is of the view that Noah's decendents were astronauts or at least attempted a space program...

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Key word : attempted.

Richard Ray
And in the mean time using 7 stair Ziggurats to prove no one ever noticed Uranus. But there were Ziggs with more steps.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Richard Ray, the seven sphere ziggurat was from your link.

Even the nine step ziggurat involves no clear proof Uranus was noticed.

Kevin Bruce
I am sure Nimrod would have failed, where Cape Canaveral succeeded : Uranium is no good rocket fuel just because it is good bomb material (and yes, I think atomic bombs were used in a pre-Flood war best reflected as to details in Mahabharata).

Kevin Bruce
Hans-Georg Lundahl what language did god destroy exactly then? The language of science? You need science for a space program? But science isn't simply speech but also ideas and methods

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Kevin Bruce "what language did god destroy exactly then?"

In all speakers? None. In most of them : Hebrew. It was preserved in such as refused to obey Nimrod. Very few.

"The language of science? You need science for a space program?"

And I think Nimrod had insufficient science to succeed with his space program.

"But science isn't simply speech but also ideas and methods"

And by interrupting a premature project, it could mature a bit over millennia and bear fruit very recently - perhaps ushering in the end times.

Randy Frazier
Lol. WOW is all I am gonna say. Off to plant some things so I can Give Food away this Harvest time.

Josh Crystal Withe
God knew their plans and confounded their plans, who said they ever got past the making bricks stage? Or ever even laid the complete foundation? Ruins like that would be buried under many feet of dirt now, and even more dirt and trash if a city was built there later.

Randy Frazier
Hans-Georg Lundahl if Gilgamesh was not REAL then how did they find the City AND the Giant Ruler NAMED "Gilgamesh/Nimrod"? lol

Hans-Georg Lundahl
But there is not any CITY called Gilgamesh!

He was a RULER. His city was called URUK!

I am not in the least disputing the recent identification of Gilgamesh with Nimrod, it would be like Nimrod to first try and visit Noah and then brag about things which never occurred in the visit!

And also, Gilgamesh being a giant does fit Nimrod who "began to be a giant".

BUT, I happen to know the Gilgamesh story too well to think it was the name of a city.

Sean Ovis
Just as a matter of interest, the tower of Babel was built how many years after a cataclysmic global extinction event which destroyed every inch of the planet and left it a festering wilderness of mud, rubble, decomposing bodies, stinking fish and decaying vegetable matter?

Richard Ray
Depends on how you read the genealogies of Genesis. Probably 400 years or so.

Sean Ovis
so, about 1900 BCE?

Richard Ray
I'd have to look it up when I'm off work. I don't want to be called on this. Just talking off the top of my head. Wait a minute and I'll look for something I was researching last month.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Depending on diverging Biblical Chronologies for birth of Peleg, you can date start of building to 101 or 529 after Flood or some in between, + 5 years after he was born.

According to one tradition.

Note, the identification with Tower of Babel with Göbekli Tepe I am doing involves carbon 14 level having been so low that a Tower of Babel c. 2204 BC (Ussher) or XV 2780 BC (Syncellus) is misdated, carbon level back then 49.459 pmc, carbon dated year 8600 BC.

For end of GT or dispersion from Babel.

Richard Ray
Something to consider: I have this marked for further study.

Were the Pyramids Built Before the Flood?

[This is a video explaining whether or not the Egyptian pyramids were built before the flood of Noah's day. It also deals with Issues with the accuracy of the Hebrew Masoretic text verses the Greek Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Tower of Babel, the age of the Earth, an extra Cainan in Jesus' genealogy, and the identity of Melchizedek - not in that particular order.]

[Before completing this article, I wathed and commented on the video, here is article with my comments and answering two of Nathan's objections:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... Pyramids, Flood, Babel, LXX, Dead Sea Scrolls

Sean Ovis
Why would anyone think that Gobekli Tepi was in any way related to Babel? It looks nothing like a tower, not even the base of a tower, and the complex hasn't been demolished; the complex was built on successively by different generations.

And recently, haven't the carvings on the stones been assocciated with astronomical phenomena?

L’image contient peut-être : plein air|

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"It looks nothing like a tower,"

Tell me more! Is water wet too?

That very pit looks like a rocket ramp, and the tower, if it had been finished, would have been a rocket.

"the complex hasn't been demolished"

However, covered.

"the complex was built on successively by different generations."

In my recalibration there are in fact just 40 years to the diverse levels of it.

"And recently, haven't the carvings on the stones been assocciated with astronomical phenomena?"

Unfortunately, I think their stellarium software has been used for the wrong year.

Sean Ovis
This is the aerial view.

It really does not look like these buildings are going to be supporting that much. I mean they are net even laid out symmetrically.

| L’image contient peut-être : plein air |

Hans-Georg Lundahl
There is a pit where the rocket could have been placed and another one where people on ground could take shelter while the take off lasted.

Inadequate. Nimrod only knew the Uranium explosions from rumours, he had never seen one.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"and another one"

Make that other ones, plural.

Sean Ovis
//Their is a pit where the rocket could have been placed and another one where people on ground could take shelter while the take off lasted.//

I think I have a picture of them:

[Picture of three persons in tin foil hats, pun or pique received.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
OK, when rational arguments are wanting or fail, ridicule is available.

Shall we try to get back and see if your rational arguments were failing on me or were lacking for you?

How do you test a claim like :

  • 1) Göbekli Tepe was arranged in order to serve as a rocket ramp
  • 2) but never did because God intervened
  • 3) and so we see remains of the ramp (minus baked bricks taken away later), but no rocket, alias no tower

whether this is false or true?

My test is : does it fit the Bible or contradict it, does it fit other material or contradict it?

I think it fits fairly well. Your turn!

Curtis Curtlegger Ensley
Where in the World Is the Tower of Babel?
by Anne Habermehl on March 23, 2011

Sean Ovis
Hans-Georg Lundahl

I refer you to Genesis 11

"3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

Is Gobekli Tepi made out of bricks?


| L’image contient peut-être : plein air |

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Curtis Curtlegger Ensley - I have corresponded with Anne Habermehl, and we disagree on many things.

I think she is putting ToB way too early in comparison to archaeology.

Hence its disappearance.

But she actually mentions GT's neighbour Urfa /Edessa being in Shinar:

// Also, in the ancient Turkish city of Edessa, now called Sanliurfa or Urfa (Grant 1997, p. 229), Nebo was one of the main two gods from very early times. (Drijvers 1980, pp. 40–75) says that “Nebo holds the first place and evidently is Edessa’s most venerated god.” Sanliurfa is in a plain about 50 km (31 miles) north of Harran, just north of the Turkish border, east of the Euphrates River (Heritage 2004, p. 143). This puts Sanliurfa within Shinar, and we therefore could consider it as a candidate for the place in Shinar where Nebuchadnezzar might have left his loot. //

To do her justice, I have no refutation about her idea about Tell Brak and area.

Kevin Bruce
This is halarious.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Glad you like it!

How about the truth value, probable or reverse? And why?

Kevin Bruce

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Btw, going over a thing you wrote earlier:

"what language did god destroy exactly then? The language of science? You need science for a space program? But science isn't simply speech but also ideas and methods"

One of the methods is cooperation between many.

Say you have ten thousand scientists in diverse fields, or even just a thousand. Then they break up in 72 groups, and now each group has 14 members - imagine the technology loss!

Kevin Bruce
So.... These peoples were smart enough to start a space program but could not figure out how to overcome a language barrier???

Hans-Georg Lundahl
  • 1) They were not smart enough to start a valid space program, but stupid enough to rush into a badly planned one;
  • 2) This was mankind's very first experience of a language barrier, all grammars and translations and stuff we have now had to be developed since.

[To Sean Ovis
we'll see if he catches up:]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"Is Gobekli Tepi made out of bricks?"

Already adressed that. GT has been deliberately covered, and the bricks could have been removed during that process.

Imagine superstitious pagans with a great sense of "mascots" using bricks from Göbekli Tepe, the project of the Great Architect Nimrod, for future building projects.

In conventional carbon dating some millennia later, but in the recalibration actually only a few centuries later.

Bricks would be as removed as meat from a carcass eaten by ants.

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