HGL's F.B. writings : But I AM a Latinist · And a Controversial One at That, Sometimes · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Latin Spoken to When? Quora
- Gabriel Svoboda
- I have a few questions about what the 3rd declension looked like in Archaic Latin – namely whether it was more regular in the past than it looks today. I have a theory that 3rd declension nouns originally had only one stem (for example leg-) and the irregular singular nominatives are a result of later phonological or orthographical interactions between the stem and the nominative singular ending -s or -is (for example leg- + -s --> lex).
I understand ius/iuris was originally ius/iusis (then the s-->r change happened between vowels).
Was corpus/corporis originaly corpus/corpusis, or corpos/corposis, or none of the above?
Was curator/curatoris originally curatos/curatosis?
Was carcer/carceris originally carces/carcesis?
Was sermo/sermonis originally sermon/sermonis (then the n nasalized the preceding o and disappeared)?
What did origo/originis look like in Archaic Latin? Was it origin/originis (and then the word-final -in somehow managed to become -o)?
Was veritas/veritatis originally veritats/veritatis (then the t was assimilated by the following s)?
Was virtus/virtutis originally virtuts/virtutis?
Was miles/militis originally milits/militis, or milets/miletis, or none of the above?
Was gens/gentis originally gents/gentis?
Was fraus/fraudis originally frauds/fraudis?
Was sanguis/sanguinis originally sanguins/sanguinis?
Was crimen/criminis originally crimin/criminis, or crimen/crimenis, or none of the above?
Was opus/operis originally opus/opusis, or opes/opesis, or none of the above?
Was cinis/cineris originally cinis/cinisis, or cines/cinesis, or none of the above?
Was vulpes/vulpis originally vulpis/vulpis?
What about iter/itineris?
What about senex/senis?
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- "I understand ius/iuris was originally ius/iusis" Yes.
"Was corpus/corporis originaly corpus/corpusis, or corpos/corposis, or none of the above?"
Corpos, corposis, then r shift and last o > u when not before r, I think. Perhaps rather corpos, corposes, since -es > -is arguably at same time as -os > -us.
"Was curator/curatoris originally curatos/curatosis?
Was carcer/carceris originally carces/carcesis?"
No, these two words have r from start.
"Was sermo/sermonis originally sermon/sermonis (then the n nasalized the preceding o and disappeared)?"
Sermo would have been sermon, yes, but probably before any recorded Latin, the Greek has Platon, Platonos, where Latin has Plato Platonis.
"What did origo/originis look like in Archaic Latin? Was it origin/originis (and then the word-final -in somehow managed to become -o)?"
Probably something like origo (long II o) *origones (short II o), where later *origones became originis. o > i because a vowel in short internal syllable not before r or labial, e > i because e and o when short in final syllables get closed to i and u.
I am not sure if what comes before woul have been orig- or perhaps oreig-.
"Was veritas/veritatis originally veritats/veritatis (then the t was assimilated by the following s)?"
Possibly, but possibly avoidance of -ts group was longstanding, so that it changed well before both Latin and Greek : both languages have III declinsion dental stems with nominative -s, not -ts.
Same for miles, gens, fraus, except that gens may have been nominative gentis, an -i-stem, since having gentium as genitive plural. I think we are dealing with gentis, genteis becoming gens, gentis.
"Was sanguis/sanguinis originally sanguins/sanguinis?"
Do not know.
"Was crimen/criminis originally crimin/criminis, or crimen/crimenis, or none of the above?"
Crimen, crimenis, then e > i, like all vowels in short medial syllables, not before r or labial.
"Was opus/operis originally opus/opusis, or opes/opesis, or none of the above?"
Probably opos, oposes, possibly opos, opeses. Medial short vowels become e before r, unless, sometimes, they stay o (corporis). I think opos oposes and corpos corposes were same declinsion type exactly, but the "sound law" vaccillated on the resulting internal vowel.
"Was cinis/cineris originally cinis/cinisis, or cines/cinesis, or none of the above?"
Could have been either. Cines would have become cinis because short e and o in final vowels close, unless before r. Cinisis would have become cineris, because short internal vowels before r become e (or sporaidically o, if originally o or u).
"Was vulpes/vulpis originally vulpis/vulpis?"
Not sure.
"What about iter/itineris?"
Originally iter itinis. If water had not been aqua, it would arguably have been **uater, uatinis, with a nominative close to English and German forms, an oblique stem close to Swedish and Icelandic forms : you probably find that in Hittite, if not in Latin.
Then itinis became itineris, contaminated with the r from nominative, like iecur, iecinoris.
"What about senex/senis?"
Two different word formations taking turns around a paradigm.
