I am Also NOT a Pagan, But Some Take me for That Too

Luke Lefebvre

[material equivalent to these two links:

What Are the Unicorns and Satyrs Mentioned in the Bible?
by Wayne Jackson
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/880-what-are-the-unicorns-and-satyrs-mentioned-in-the-bible

The Myth That the Bible is Just a Myth
by Robin Schumacher
http://blogs.christianpost.com/confident-christian/the-myth-that-the-bible-is-just-a-myth-15757/ ]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"All pagan religions have these mythical creatures that they believed in that never were real and God’s going to bring those ideas to an end."

I do not consider satyrs clearly non-extant.

When St Anthony the Great went to visit St Paul the First Hermit, he met a faun crying over his probably going to be damned, because pagans were worshipping him.

A wise satyr, I'd say.

Luke Lefebvre

Apology is not the same thing as history and just because God mentions mythological creatures it doesn’t mean he believes the existed. He demonstrates that with the Babylonians believed about the mythical creatures will come to an end

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Does he? It does not say so very clearly.

Either way on St Anthony's visit, I am here not citing the faun, but the Centaur:

Creation vs. Evolution : Was St. Jerome Calling Genesis a Myth, and if so in what sense?
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2012/08/was-st-jerome-calling-genesis-myth-and.html

Luke Lefebvre

This mythical creatures don’t exist and just because the Bible mentions the Babylonian mythical creatures they believe in doesn’t mean it’s true

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"This mythical creatures don’t exist"

How do you know?

Some have seen them. Including some Christians, like St Anthony the Great.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

As for Zeus, well, it seems he banished his father to Italy where he became ancestor to Lavinia, and therefore to Julius Ceasar.

Doesn't mean he is a god, still less the highest god, but he seems to have existed.

Luke Lefebvre

No it simply means that Zeus didn’t exist and it definitely demonstrates that the Babylonian concept of a half man half goat doesn’t exist either and God one day will do away with all of it

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"No it simply means that Zeus didn’t exist"

Christians have thought otherwise.

As to "the Babylonian concept", it has been witnessed by non-Babylonians, and the words in Isaiah do not exactly mean "will be done away with". Dancing means normally something else.

Luke Lefebvre

Christians were completely wrong because there’s a difference between a Bible believing Christian and a religious Christian. A religious Christian thinks he has a good chance of going to heaven because he’s really not that bad a biblical Christian knows that he doesn’t deserve to go to heaven but the Saviour saved him and what he did for the senior allows him to go there. That’s the bottom line difference

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Christians were completely wrong because there’s a difference between a Bible believing Christian and a religious Christian"

How many "Bible believing Christians" of your type do you find back in the times of the Church Fathers and of St Anthony the Great?

Luke Lefebvre

I can attest to the five new the apostles. Clement of Rome Ignatius of Antioch Polycarp Papius etc

Tertullian I’m sure he did so did Justin martyr Hippolytus etc. lots of the second century pastors believe God’s word literally

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Good, I'd agree they believed the Bible.

[Answered before he brought in Tertullian, who died a Montanist]

I'd also say they were what you call religious Christians.

And I'd definitely remind you they were a few centuries before either St Anthony or the Church Fathers who commented extensively on Pagan Epic myths.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Tertullian was definitely a "works justice".

Luke Lefebvre

Well he was a lawyer and he believed God’s word

Hans-Georg Lundahl

He was certainly not a Protestant.

Luke Lefebvre

We don’t need a priest to tell us what God’s Word says. God said to Moses that he spoke in plain language this is not a hard concept

[page with his work - not attributed to elsewhere]

Luke Lefebvre

What’s your point here exactly? Tell me you’re not trying to tell me that these mythological ideas were actually true?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am sorry, but "allegory" and "dark speech" is not the same.

Also, priests have other functions than telling us what the Bible mean.

Yes, I believe Pagan mythological ideas were true observed phenomena or historic memories - to a degree. NOT to the degree of involving Pagan theology being true. Ulysses came back to Penelope, and may have seen a Cyclops on the way, but it was not because Zeus and Athena spoke about it on Olympus.

Subthread A

Luke Lefebvre

Well prove it to me. Prove to me that Sue’s actually existed outside of just belief?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Saturn was exiled from Crete to Italy, father of Picus, grandfather of Latinus, greatgrandfather of Lavinia who married Aeneas.

We have a genealogy from Aeneas to Romulus and fairly prosy historic events part of the way.

Saturn's other son in Crete was Zeus or Jove.

Luke Lefebvre

Various cultures using the various concepts of these mythological ideas and believing it is not the same thing as proving it. Romulus was a real person we know that from history

All these various cultures that believe these deities by different names because of their culture only points to what they believed in Mesopotamia at the Tower of Babel. That’s why these various names are attributed to these various mythological ideas that are not true but share similar concept under different names. Tower of Babel

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Then so was his [Romulus'] ancestor Saturn, and therefore also this man's other son, Zeus.

Luke Lefebvre

Prove to me that the Greek god Zeus exist

So you say prove it to me

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I did.

But I neither claimed, nor proved he was a god.

Luke Lefebvre

How did you you told me about it how did you

You didn’t prove it to me you told me what that’s with the people believed. Prove to me that he did prove to me that he turned into an ox and came to Europia and defiled her and then killed her I’ll wait

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I never said he turned into an ox.

It is however possible that by witchcraft he got the looks of an ox and that by witchcraft Europe thought she was a cow.

Luke Lefebvre

I know you didn’t but I know for a fact that’s the story. I want you to prove to me that Zeus is an actual being. Don’t tell me that’s what they said prove it to me

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What we know he did, he was a king on Crete, he banished his father to Italy, and that is why Saturn was there.

We know history because of tradition, that is a constant, whether the tradition is pre-Jewish (as Genesis) or Christian or Pagan.

As for still existing, he is an actual human soul, probably damned in Hell.

Note also, the person why by witchcraft defiled Europa need not be the same person who banned his father to Italy and whose cousin several generations removed is Julius Caesar. He could be, but they could also be two different actual sinners.

Or Europa could have been defiled by a demon, not a man.

Luke Lefebvre

None of that story is true and you can’t prove that story even happen physically. Just because people believe it doesn’t mean it’s true. We have physical evidence of the crucifixion of Christ

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"None of that story is true"

That is more than you know.

"and you can’t prove that story even happen physically."

Most stories and therefore most of history cannot be proven physically.

"Just because people believe it doesn’t mean it’s true."

It does, unless there is a reason to think they could or even would have been mistaken.

"We have physical evidence of the crucifixion of Christ"

Yes, the Holy Cross found by St Helen and the Syndone of Turin. Both of which are relics that Protestants have historically contested as Catholic forgeries and fake stories.

End of subthread A

Luke Lefebvre

Mystery’s etc. got made himself plain and simple and we don’t need anybody telling us what the Bible says. We can read the Bible and understand its literal meaning

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Well, for one thing, its literal meaning in Isaiah seems to be satyrs exist, if we don't need some professor telling us what it says.

Luke Lefebvre

No it’s literal meaning is that they believe they existed but not the Jewish people the Babylonians. No prove to me that Zeus actually existed

Clearly it’s called Greek mythology for a reason the Bible is not called mythology Jesus is not a mythological person

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Greek mythology" is a very fluid concept.

Some parts are clearly false, like most things that are involved in Theogony, some parts are clearly true, like Trojan War or Ulysses getting home.

Luke Lefebvre

Prove to me that Zeus exists

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I did on the other thread [=subthread A].

Meaning, he now exists as a probably damned soul in Hell.

Luke Lefebvre

You didn’t prove it to me. Give me some physical evidence other than what people believed it

Hans-Georg Lundahl

There is his tomb on Crete.

But generally, history is by stories told, not by physical evidence outside stories.