Interaction with John Baumgardner

Creation vs. Evolution : Article and Details, Please? · Baumgardner Gave the Title, I Found the Link · My Tables End In Real Year 1032 (1028) BC, Dated As 940 · And What About the Lowering of Carbon 14 Level? · HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS : Interaction with John Baumgardner

Before first reading of the Cambridge article:

Hans-Georg Lundahl

on own wall

Article and Details, Please?
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/09/article-and-details-please.html

John Baumgardner - can you help out, please?

added below

[800 - 400 BC is right the period where I am or was putting the evening out to 100 pmC.]

John Baumgardner

As a point of clarification, that quote referring to the Hallstat Disaster is _not_ from my RATE chapter on C-14.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, do you know where it _is_ from?

John Baumgardner

In a quick Internet search, I found the term 'Hallstatt radiocarbon plateau' first mentioned in a 2003 review article in Quaternary Science Reviews by Zolitschka et al. This term refers to a 400 year long interval from about 800 to 400 BC during which global C-14 levels were more or less constant. That period had already been named by the archeological community the "Hallstatt Period" for the early European Iron Age. The name is from that of the village of Hallstatt in Austria famous for its salt mines even before that period. High-precision decadal calibration of the radiocarbon time scale, AD 1950-6000 BC.

A 1993 paper in the journal Radiocarbon by Stuvier and Becker entitled "High-precision decadal calibration of the radiocarbon time scale, AD 1950-6000 BC" had shown that radiocarbon levels during that interval coinciding with the Hallstatt Period had been almost constant. That meant that the use of C-14 for events during that time period had unacceptably large uncertainties for most archeologists.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Ah, ok. I'll try to find a link.

Here?

High-Precision Decadal Calibration of the Radiocarbon Time Scale, AD 1950–6000 BC
Minze Stuiver (a1) and Bernd Becker (a2) +
Published online by Cambridge University Press: 18 July 2016
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/highprecision-decadal-calibration-of-the-radiocarbon-time-scale-ad-19506000-bc/F1AB60097B0184501418D3EAEAD2EA90

What if archaeologists are wrong on what the real years should be?

John Baumgardner

In dealing with European history, archeologists largely rely on radiocarbon for what they assume are close to actual dates for the successions of occupations, for example, that they study. The mounting complexities with radiocarbon, for example, the 'Hallstatt Plateau' and the increasing discrepancies between C-14 dates and historically datable sites in the Middle East as one goes further and further back in time, are causing considerable consternation in the archeological community.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Yes, OK, but the problem is, the other dating reasons they use could also be wrong.

After some reading and rereading of it, with calculations leading to a discrepancy between (purported?) historic dates 665 and 595 BC:

Hans-Georg Lundahl

on Baumgardner's wall

Baumgardner Gave the Title, I Found the Link
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/10/baumgardner-gave-title-i-found-link.html

[technically first comment under I:] Would you mind taking a look on the problem?

My Tables End In Real Year 1032 (1028) BC, Dated As 940
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/10/my-tables-end-in-real-year-1032-1028-bc.html

And What About the Lowering of Carbon 14 Level?
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/10/and-what-about-lowering-of-carbon-14.html

I

John Baumgardner

Hans-Georg, To me it seems clear that something unusual is going on during that interval. My conjecture is that it has to do with the atmospheric C-14 production rate, that it was for some reason higher than average early in the interval and then decreased back toward the average value, say, averaged over the past 2500 years. What might have been responsible for a higher flux of high-energy particles entering the atmosphere during that time? I do not have any firm ideas as to the answer to that question.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The problem is not the overall scheme in the interval (760 - 450 BC), to me it is a question of pmC sinking by normal decay not compensated by any new production reaching down that low in the atmosphere.

The problem is where the level drops (and the radiocarbon years peak) faster than the atmospheric sample would decay between 665 and 595 BC.

It seems you are confusing production rate and level, whenever a production rate gets normal, it takes time for the level to sink down. Why did it sink faster?

Can 70 years be a question of simple mixture fluctuations?

As to where I think you go wrong in general terms, I think you are comparing 100 pmC to a "stable equilibrium point" to which everything automatically returns as quickly as possible as soon as contrary influences are done away with. For definition of the term:

Gömböc—The Shape That Shouldn't Exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvVF5QWSYF4

But 100 pmC is the unstable result of two in and of themselves opposed "forces", with no fixed value either of them.

The one pushing down is "decay" and you have not answered why pmC sank quicker than decay speed.

Have any idea particularly on that one?

John Baumgardner

Just as 11 years of atmospheric thermonuclear testing caused a jump in the atmospheric C-14 level, which then began to decay away, something like a relatively nearby supernova would do something similar and would yield what would appear to be anomalously younger C-14 ages in the organisms that died after that event, with the anomaly decreasing with time afterward. Let me emphasize that this supernova explanation is rank speculation on my part, but it serves to illustrate the sort of cause which seems to be needed.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"a jump in the atmospheric C-14 level, which then began to decay away,"

But was the decay rate normal or accelerated?

How the pcM gets up quickly (with radiocarbon years going down) is not the problem. I am most fully aware extra radioactivity can get it up. The problem is, can it decay faster?

John Baumgardner

I was assuming a decay rate like we measure for C-14 today. Why would it need to be faster?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If we go from 102.016 pmC to 100.061 it is a decay as from 100 to 98.084.

If we go from 101.113 pmC to 99.142 it is a decay rate as from 100 to 98.051.

BUT in 70 we would normally go from 100 to 99.157.

So, going "from 100 to 98.084 / 98.051" is faster than normal.

It means like going from 100 to 20.5 in 5730 years.

What caused the more than double speed of decay?

The two different versions are due to my hesitation if "years bp" was expressed in Cambridge halflife or still in a Libby halflife needing to recalculate the numbers by 1.03 for Cambridge.

Either way, the stretch from 665 to 595 BC averages a decay twice as fast as normal.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I can see three main solutions.

• a) faster decay - but adding radioactivity should also make lots of new carbon 14 isotopes, see the article "Carbon dating into the future", right? Net phenomenon would be more C14, not less.
• b) mixture phenomenon - while all of the period 760 to 450 averages a decay with no compensating production, 665 to 595 you get admixture from parts of the air which have been decaying their C14 for longer without receiving new production - but can air parts be that separate from each other in the atmosphere for 95 years or more?
• c) while the tested objects have the carbon dates they have, some of their real dates could be somewhat misassigned.
  
  Even for back in Our Lord's time, when Rome was vaster and better organised, Our Lord's nativity was in 1498 assigned to "Hebdomada sexagesima tertia, juxta Danielis prophetiam, scilicet anno quadringentesimo quadragesimo vel circa." (63:rd week of Daniel) and now it is 65th week of Daniel.
  
  And Daniel's weeks start just after this period.
  
  
• d) - a subset of b : natural gas leaked or petrol was used very massively in oil lamps over the period.

You did get how I had calculated it, right? It was stated in the text in the second link on this thread?

II

Brian James Kyle*

Perhaps nuclear decay on the earth could be a source for increased C14?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The problem was not INCREASED C14, but DECREASED, more rapidly than normal decay rate.

If you didn't see how I calculated a decrease more than normal decay rate, read my links again, please.

Esp. this one:

And What About the Lowering of Carbon 14 Level?
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/10/and-what-about-lowering-of-carbon-14.html

* not shortening name, since his page says

Canadian Economic Security & Stimulus Initiative
Founder & Chief Visionary Officer · Décembre 2016 à aujourd’hui · Victoria (Colombie-Britannique)
http://www.briankyle.ca/

In other words, a known person.

Pious Fideist (pseudonym "Blind Grappler") ... attacking Rational Apologetics

Blind Grappler

The greatest evidence of the Bible is the people that follow it. Jesus said for us to be the light of the world and to be holy for I am holy, was also stated by the apostle Peter.Paul stated, present your bodies a living sacrifice and that you were bought with a price. Jesus Christ is a testimony to us, therefore we will be a testimony of him. Archaeology and history matters, but not as much as what God demands. Atheist will find a way to twist the greatest findings we have and will find that truly do prove the Bible. The greatest evidence you could dig up in their minds would be Jesus Christ dead bones, even if we found an original manuscript, they would say it must be corrupted. In conclusion, the Bible and everyone of you are the greatest testimonies to God, including the people digging up all these findings. God bless all of you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Look here, all this may be fine and dandy, but this group is for those (whether believers or the group you described) who are interested in archaeology and history.

Blind Grappler

Hans-Georg Lundahl The Bible itself claims to be hope for evidence of things that are unseen not for things that are seen and I am interested in all of this but if you follow what I was saying closely I’m talking about from a nonbelieving perspective the greatest apologetic is the Bible and its testimony through you

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not."
[Hebrews 11:1]

Now, the Bible is not restricted to faith in this sense, but also involves rational arguments to accept the faith - and no, this verse does not mean there cannot be any.

Blind Grappler

But it does hoist the word of God above everything else I feel like you guys are arguing against this in this post if Christians don’t submit to the authority of scripture as above all who does

And atheist could argue your position alongside with you, does this not bother you? I promise you this though, they could not argue my position alongside with me. That’s far more massively important, you guys are definitely missing the point and this raises a lot of concern with the true intention behind all these studies from the mini

Read what I wrote in this post and read with all you’ve guys have wrote in this post and then make that comparison could an atheist say the same thing as I am saying am I being too logical do I have zero spirituality to my Christianity, and if I’m right you need to rethink your strategy with all this the right approach is always the word of God first

I’m not arguing against archaeology and history I’m arguing against the lack of continuity between the old and the new testament proving the New Testament with the Old Testament and that being top priority and the number one true apologetic

You might be saved just by simply believing but if that belief doesn’t regenerate you or change you for the better by focusing on the perfect law of God and you’re claiming that it’s OK to do evil so that good may come in like Paul says surely not I think all this comes from a lack of obedience to the word of God

We are not meant to write down in our minds and out of our mouth no one‘s right now not one and just forget about it all and say I’m a believer we are meant to be holy set apart servants of the most high God

But no let’s argue with a guy like me and Claire obedience and the word is secondary and we need to go dig up bury treasure our faith is underneath the sand somewhere and God just didn’t preserve what is important at our disposal, Surely not

If we elevate findings on the same level as the Bible then we might as well be Roman Catholics and call these finding sacraments

Hans-Georg Lundahl

First of all, I am a Roman Catholic and think sacraments are MORE important to the single Christian than Bible text.

Second, I don't do that. I don't call the findings sacraments.

Third, it doesn't matter that the business of this group is less important than something else, it still is the business of this group. I am not here to get the sacraments, I am not hear to get the Bible readings in Holy Mass, I am here to get archaeological support or at worst purported refutations to refute in my turn about the Catholic faith.

If I want to commune with God, I go elsewhere, and not to you, since you are not even Catholic, Blind Grappler!

Blind Grappler "And atheist could argue your position alongside with you, does this not bother you?"

I don't think an atheist would argue my position that Ipuwer papyrus supports Exodus and it being previous to Hyksos invasion, nor my position that Hungere Stele argues reality of Joseph in Egypt.

I don't think an atheist would argue my position that Moses wrote the Penteteuch and that lack of Torah's from 1510 BC doesn't matter, nor my position that Gilgamesh and Atrahasis are perhaps only decades earlier than this.

I also don't think he would argue my position that carbon date 40 000 BP = real date 2957 BC, Flood of Noah, nor that the carbon dates 9600 and 8600 BC, surrounding Göbekli Tepe (lowest and highest levels) correspond not too far from real dates 350 and 401 years after the Flood, as death of Noah and birth of Peleg surround Babel.

G e t
a
g r i p!

But on certain matters where my position would be held along me by atheists, no, that doesn't bother me.

What's wrong is not agreeing with one specific enemy of the faith on one or even more than one issue, what's wrong is disagreeing with Bible, Tradition, infallible Magisterium on even one single issue.

Same William P. Lazarus on "Any Competent Researcher"

The Gospel Truth, by William P. Lazarus : part 1 · part 2 · part 3
William Paul Lazarus reacted to: part 1 of above · [Meme on Eucharist, so] Willam P. Lazarus Pretended the Eucharist was known in BC times · Same William P. Lazarus on "Any Competent Researcher"

Hans Georg Lundahl

[posted a link to previous on the wall of [William P. Lazarus'] FB account]

[William P. Lazarus]

I stopped arguing with you long ago. You know nothing of centuries of religious history and ignore what you don;t believe. There's no point in continuing the conversation.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Oh, nice one, general dismissal is a wonderful tactic when proven wrong in detail!

[William P. Lazarus]

Sorry, I'm not wrong and you know it. Any competent researcher can find numerous historical references to people thinking they are ingesting the body and blood of a god prior to Jesus. Paul, who was raised in the city of such a ceremony in honor of the risen Heracles, said the image came to him in a dream. Any Jew at the "last supper" of Jesus had actually offered them blood (in the form of wine) would have fled in horror.

Hans Georg Lundahl

"Numerous" (just saying it) is not even one reference (actually given).

You have not shown yourself a competent researcher, since you have not been able to give the Cicero reference.

At University, Latin students prior to post-graduate studies no longer will have read all of Cicero. Any more than all of Caesar, Virgil, Horace or Sallustius ... B U T we are taught what writings there are in Cicero's writings.

If you had given a reference to Tusculanae disputationes or to Epistulae ad Familiares, I'd have been perfectly competent to look it up in Latin, besides the fact probably all of Cicero is translated to English. If you had given a reference to Roman de la Rose or Iliad, I would have known you were bamboozling or bamboozled.

As you totally refuse to give any reference, I conclude you are bluffing (whether or not bamboozled before in your turn).

"Paul, who was raised in the city of such a ceremony in honor of the risen Heracles, said the image came to him in a dream."

You also gave no reference to this ceremony existing in Tarsis.

Or to there being any myth of Heracles rising (other than to Olympus, by his soul).

Or to St. Paul saying it came to him in a dream (he wrote 14 epistles of the NT, you could have referenced one).

"Any Jew at the "last supper" of Jesus had actually offered them blood (in the form of wine) would have fled in horror."

Those who would had already left at the John 6 incident.

[Plus link to this post, saving that dialogue with the one below.]

Now, I shared another thing.

Here:

Among the more than 30,000 Greek and Latin inscriptions have been discovered in the catacombs of Rome, is this marble slab is from about the year 313 A.D. The slab sealed the tomb of a little child named Asellus and the inscription goes on to tell us that he or she had lived 5 years, 8 months and 23 days. To the left we see the images of the Saints Peter and Paul, with the monogram of Christ above the name of Peter. The fact that the Gospel of Jesus brought to Rome by St. Peter and St. Paul was clearly professed by the early Christian community there.

And guess who commented ...? Mr. "I stopped arguing with you long ago."

I

[William P. Lazarus]

Since you are too lazy to look up facts that contradict your outdated beliefs, here's some help:

The Pagan Origin of the Communion
OCEAN MALANDRA 29 SEP 2017
https://classroom.synonym.com/natural-phenomenon-pegasus-associated-greek-mythology-19415.html

Hans Georg Lundahl

1) Bacchae, no reference to bread, will look up Euripides' play (which is not in Cicero's writings, by the way)
2) Mithras mysteries, that come closest, can be totally fabricated : we have actually very little knowledge about them (and Cicero is not cited)
3) "According to one of the most prominent scholars in charge of translating the scrolls, John Allegro, Christianity was really based on ancient fertility rites from the Near East that revolve around the ingestion of psychoactive mushrooms."

Doesn't say which scrolls, and therefore not if I'd agree they are part of the make-up even possibly from an Atheist p o v of Christianity. I am fairly certain Cicero is not cited.

4) "Interestingly, hallucinogenic mushrooms were ingested in massive quantities by the Aztec peoples, who called them Teonanactl, or the 'Flesh of the Gods.'"

a) doesn't say whether it's flesh coming from bodies of gods or flesh consumed by the gods, the latter seems more probable
b) totally irrelevant as precedent of Christianity, if you care to look up Aztecs on wiki:

// The Aztecs (/ˈæztɛks/) were a Mesoamerican culture that flourished in central Mexico in the post-classic period from 1300 to 1521. //

If this was not clear enough, from 1300 AD to 1521 AD. Their language is not extinguished, and that is why we know so much about them. Teonanactl may well have been Satan's parody on the Eucharist.

References were given to three sites. John Allegro and Teonanactl are for two of them, the only one relevant for Euripides and Mithras would be first one, which no longer exists:

Page not found - The Mystica
https://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/communion.html

It can be mentioned, that site offers to read tarots for you, which might give you an idea about how much they are knowledgeable about Classical Greece or Rome ... even before reading Euripides, I don't think the more than 1770 lines will confirm their take very much.

A search in the text of Euripides' play, translated by Translated by Ian Johnston of Vancouver University in 2003, gave no hit at all for virgin, and 13 hits for blood (including bloody and blood-shed) which have no reference to wine.

As virgin has the synonym maid, maiden, there are three hits on maid, none of which calls Semele maiden when giving birth to Dionysus.

How I searched? Use ctrl + F!

KC

Eucharist is the fulfillment of the Passover meal. (OT is a type and shadow of the New Testament). “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place, a clean oblation is offered to my name, and a pure offering: for my name is great among nations, says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 1:11). Most nations were still “Gentile” or “heathen” at this time. Pagan worship was still the norm…hence the command of Christ to His Apostles to "…go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Mt 28: 19-20). The world had not yet been converted to Christ.

Hans Georg Lundahl

I'd like to mention, [William P. Lazarus] is not a Jewish believer, but an Atheist.

He also wrote a book trying to debunk beginnings of Christianity.

[William P. Lazarus]

Hans-Georg Lundahl Wrong again.

Hans Georg Lundahl

What is wrong?

ARE you a Jewish believer?
Are you NOT an Atheist?
Did you NOT write The Gospel Truth?

[My guess before getting his answer : not strictly Atheist - or he prefers spelling it with lower case a, but that's less likely.]

II

UAS

seen it, been there!

Hans Georg Lundahl

Ah, the place depicted?

III

[William P. Lazarus]

I don't care enough about any god to be an atheist. I'm not Jewish. I didn't write a book to debunk Christianity. I write history books based on research. If it "debunks" a religion, it's simply because the facts rarely conform to belief. Any religious historian can tell you that. But you're too busy trying to prove the Earth is flat and only a few thousand years old.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Wait, you didn't write this book?

The Gospel Truth Perfect Paperback – February 10, 2011
by William P. Lazarus (Author), Halifax Country Publishers (Editor), Mary V. Wentzel (Illustrator)
https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Truth-William-P-Lazarus/dp/0982970021

Or you mean this applies? "I didn't write a book to debunk Christianity. I write history books based on research. If it 'debunks' a religion, it's simply because the facts rarely conform to belief."

Because, you see, you sent me an example, and your will to debunk Christianity was very obvious, but your quality of research was deplorable. Recall first part of my review? "In other words, WPL, as I will abbreviate him, is giving a scenario which I consider as free fantasy novel. So far, my resumé of chapter 1."

And your accountability for how you get your supposed information was deplorable too, you pretended 16 Church Fathers had cited Josephus and not cited TF:

"Now, we have a problem. WPL gives no footnote. I cannot check which 16 Church Fathers* [!] WPL means, nor how many of them were commenting on the Jewish War rather than on Antiquities, nor how many complain of him overlooking Jesus and in what terms."

Your having some kind of relation to Jewry is also either from my memory of the preface or from a discussion we had after. Here my source is lost to me, since I no longer have the book.

"Any religious historian can tell you that."

Religious historians often enough are not historians.

"But you're too busy trying to prove the Earth is flat and only a few thousand years old."

I am Geocentric, but not a Flat Earther.

I am also not "trying to prove", since there are prima facie cases for both (our view of the heavenly bodies and the Biblical timeline), I am just defending both against supposed disproof.

[William P. Lazarus]

Nonsense. You let belief dictate your "studies." No legitimate scientist thinks the world is a few thousand years old. No legitimate religious historian accepts mythology as fact. I've attended and participated in enough seminars to know even rigid fundamentalists accept proven findings. I'm done answering anything you write. It's just a waste of time.

Hans Georg Lundahl

You let your lack of interest in any god dictate yours.

"No legitimate scientist thinks the world is a few thousand years old."

Not relevant if true. Scientists are not infallible, even collectively.

Also not true, there are lots of scientists on CMI (Creation Ministries International), in fact I think a PhD is a requirement with them for writing for them.

Except, if you make it circular. Calling them illegitimate scientists because they consider Genesis true.

"No legitimate religious historian accepts mythology as fact."

As said, I don't think "religious history" stands up as good history, often enough. Especially not your version.

" I've attended and participated in enough seminars to know even rigid fundamentalists accept proven findings."

And what "proven findings" are you referring to here? You have shown none.

"I'm done answering anything you write. It's just a waste of time."

Reminds me of 'Allo 'Allo! and the line "listeune vèrie kèrefoulie, aï ouil séï zis ônli once"

Willam P. Lazarus Pretended the Eucharist was known in BC times

The Gospel Truth, by William P. Lazarus : part 1 · part 2 · part 3
William Paul Lazarus reacted to: part 1 of above · [Meme on Eucharist, so] Willam P. Lazarus Pretended the Eucharist was known in BC times · Same William P. Lazarus on "Any Competent Researcher"

status in FB group

Kit Cronebaugh in Christian History and Archaeology

29 septembre shared:

ANCIENT MANUSCRIPT SHOWS DOCTRINE OF COMMUNION

A 1,500-year-old fragment of Greek papyrus with writing that refers to the biblical Last Supper and "manna from heaven" may be one of the oldest Christian amulets, say researchers. The fragment was likely folded up and worn inside a locket or pendant as a sort of protective charm, according to Roberta Mazza, who spotted the papyrus while looking through thousands of papyri kept in the library vault at the John Rylands Research Institute at the University of Manchester in the United Kingdom.

"This is an important and unexpected discovery as it's one of the first recorded documents to use magic in the Christian context and the first charm ever found to refer to the Eucharist — the Last Supper — as the manna of the Old Testament," Mazza said in a statement. The fragment likely originated in a town in Egypt.

The translated text on the papyrus reads:

"Fear you all who rule over the earth.

Know you nations and peoples that Christ is our God.

For he spoke and they came to being, he commanded and they were created; he put everything under our feet and delivered us from the wish of our enemies.

Our God prepared a sacred table in the desert for the people and gave manna of the new covenant to eat, the Lord's immortal body and the blood of Christ poured for us in remission of sins."

'DOUBLY FASCINATING'

On one side, it has a combination of biblical passages from the books of Psalms and Matthew, while on the other is part of a receipt for payment of grain tax.
Dr Mazza said the amulet maker "would have cut a piece of the receipt, written the charm on the other side and then folded the papyrus to be kept in a locket".
She said the use of written charms was an ancient Egyptian practice, which was adopted by early Christians, who replaced prayers to Egyptian and Greco-Roman gods with passages from the Bible.

I shared above.

to my wall.

[Willam P. Lazarus]

Shucks, Cicero refers to communion about 50 years before Jesus was born. "Eating" the blood and body of a god was a common ritual in pagan times.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Yeah, how about exact quote, I am a Latinist and am able to judge that ...

[Willam P. Lazarus]

He said: anyone who takes bread and wine and thinks he is eating a god is an idiot. That was decades before Jesus.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Exact quote = what book, chapter and paragraph by Cicero.

It's like claiming "the Bible says 'God helps them who help themselves' " and not giving the reference to II Opinions (Kent Hovind's favourite reference to fake Bible quotes). Now, try again, what book by Cicero, and if you like, give the quote in Latin.

Legi enim eius opus De Amicitia ad Laelium, et latinitas eius, quamvis difficilior ea quae Thomae Aquinatis sit, mihi possibilis est lectu.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Come on, it's not like asking you to recite a work in Etruscan, here is the list of Cicero's works:

Writings of Cicero - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writings_of_Cicero

Bc, if you don't know which work by him, chances are you are repeating an urban legend about him. Like the other urban legend repeated by Acharya Sanning that Varro would have known about Jesus but conspicuously didn't. In fact he died in 4 AD.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Look, I did a ctrl F search of occurrence on the page for "anyone who takes bread and wine and thinks he is eating a god" on this English translation of De Natura Deorum:

LacusCurtius • Cicero — De Natura Deorum I.1‑19
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cicero/de_Natura_Deorum/1A*.html

[Willam P. Lazarus] - either your quote was not verbatim, or it was from another work, or ... sad to state such a suspicion, but not totally surprised after looking at your book against Christianity ... you are promoting an urban legend (or even worse, invented it yourself). So, where is the quote you gave from? I am not requiring you to dig up Sumerian clay tablets, it's as easy as asking about a fake Bible quote what book, chapter and verse you find it in the Bible!

I mean, in his book The Gospel Truth, he pretended to be knowledgeable on 1:st Centuries both BC and AD. Now, he is on three separate days challenged to provide the reference for a pretended quote from Cicero and the last of these days is now 3 days ago, it looks like he is less knowledgeable than he claimed.

He should not have tried to pull this one on a Latinist ...