Same William P. Lazarus on "Any Competent Researcher"

The Gospel Truth, by William P. Lazarus : part 1 · part 2 · part 3
William Paul Lazarus reacted to: part 1 of above · [Meme on Eucharist, so] Willam P. Lazarus Pretended the Eucharist was known in BC times · Same William P. Lazarus on "Any Competent Researcher"

Hans Georg Lundahl

[posted a link to previous on the wall of [William P. Lazarus'] FB account]

[William P. Lazarus]

I stopped arguing with you long ago. You know nothing of centuries of religious history and ignore what you don;t believe. There's no point in continuing the conversation.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Oh, nice one, general dismissal is a wonderful tactic when proven wrong in detail!

[William P. Lazarus]

Sorry, I'm not wrong and you know it. Any competent researcher can find numerous historical references to people thinking they are ingesting the body and blood of a god prior to Jesus. Paul, who was raised in the city of such a ceremony in honor of the risen Heracles, said the image came to him in a dream. Any Jew at the "last supper" of Jesus had actually offered them blood (in the form of wine) would have fled in horror.

Hans Georg Lundahl

"Numerous" (just saying it) is not even one reference (actually given).

You have not shown yourself a competent researcher, since you have not been able to give the Cicero reference.

At University, Latin students prior to post-graduate studies no longer will have read all of Cicero. Any more than all of Caesar, Virgil, Horace or Sallustius ... B U T we are taught what writings there are in Cicero's writings.

If you had given a reference to Tusculanae disputationes or to Epistulae ad Familiares, I'd have been perfectly competent to look it up in Latin, besides the fact probably all of Cicero is translated to English. If you had given a reference to Roman de la Rose or Iliad, I would have known you were bamboozling or bamboozled.

As you totally refuse to give any reference, I conclude you are bluffing (whether or not bamboozled before in your turn).

"Paul, who was raised in the city of such a ceremony in honor of the risen Heracles, said the image came to him in a dream."

You also gave no reference to this ceremony existing in Tarsis.

Or to there being any myth of Heracles rising (other than to Olympus, by his soul).

Or to St. Paul saying it came to him in a dream (he wrote 14 epistles of the NT, you could have referenced one).

"Any Jew at the "last supper" of Jesus had actually offered them blood (in the form of wine) would have fled in horror."

Those who would had already left at the John 6 incident.

[Plus link to this post, saving that dialogue with the one below.]

Now, I shared another thing.

Here:

Among the more than 30,000 Greek and Latin inscriptions have been discovered in the catacombs of Rome, is this marble slab is from about the year 313 A.D. The slab sealed the tomb of a little child named Asellus and the inscription goes on to tell us that he or she had lived 5 years, 8 months and 23 days. To the left we see the images of the Saints Peter and Paul, with the monogram of Christ above the name of Peter. The fact that the Gospel of Jesus brought to Rome by St. Peter and St. Paul was clearly professed by the early Christian community there.

And guess who commented ...? Mr. "I stopped arguing with you long ago."

I

[William P. Lazarus]

Since you are too lazy to look up facts that contradict your outdated beliefs, here's some help:

The Pagan Origin of the Communion
OCEAN MALANDRA 29 SEP 2017
https://classroom.synonym.com/natural-phenomenon-pegasus-associated-greek-mythology-19415.html

Hans Georg Lundahl

1) Bacchae, no reference to bread, will look up Euripides' play (which is not in Cicero's writings, by the way)
2) Mithras mysteries, that come closest, can be totally fabricated : we have actually very little knowledge about them (and Cicero is not cited)
3) "According to one of the most prominent scholars in charge of translating the scrolls, John Allegro, Christianity was really based on ancient fertility rites from the Near East that revolve around the ingestion of psychoactive mushrooms."

Doesn't say which scrolls, and therefore not if I'd agree they are part of the make-up even possibly from an Atheist p o v of Christianity. I am fairly certain Cicero is not cited.

4) "Interestingly, hallucinogenic mushrooms were ingested in massive quantities by the Aztec peoples, who called them Teonanactl, or the 'Flesh of the Gods.'"

a) doesn't say whether it's flesh coming from bodies of gods or flesh consumed by the gods, the latter seems more probable
b) totally irrelevant as precedent of Christianity, if you care to look up Aztecs on wiki:

// The Aztecs (/ˈæztɛks/) were a Mesoamerican culture that flourished in central Mexico in the post-classic period from 1300 to 1521. //

If this was not clear enough, from 1300 AD to 1521 AD. Their language is not extinguished, and that is why we know so much about them. Teonanactl may well have been Satan's parody on the Eucharist.

References were given to three sites. John Allegro and Teonanactl are for two of them, the only one relevant for Euripides and Mithras would be first one, which no longer exists:

Page not found - The Mystica
https://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/communion.html

It can be mentioned, that site offers to read tarots for you, which might give you an idea about how much they are knowledgeable about Classical Greece or Rome ... even before reading Euripides, I don't think the more than 1770 lines will confirm their take very much.

A search in the text of Euripides' play, translated by Translated by Ian Johnston of Vancouver University in 2003, gave no hit at all for virgin, and 13 hits for blood (including bloody and blood-shed) which have no reference to wine.

As virgin has the synonym maid, maiden, there are three hits on maid, none of which calls Semele maiden when giving birth to Dionysus.

How I searched? Use ctrl + F!

KC

Eucharist is the fulfillment of the Passover meal. (OT is a type and shadow of the New Testament). “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place, a clean oblation is offered to my name, and a pure offering: for my name is great among nations, says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 1:11). Most nations were still “Gentile” or “heathen” at this time. Pagan worship was still the norm…hence the command of Christ to His Apostles to "…go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Mt 28: 19-20). The world had not yet been converted to Christ.

Hans Georg Lundahl

I'd like to mention, [William P. Lazarus] is not a Jewish believer, but an Atheist.

He also wrote a book trying to debunk beginnings of Christianity.

[William P. Lazarus]

Hans-Georg Lundahl Wrong again.

Hans Georg Lundahl

What is wrong?

ARE you a Jewish believer?
Are you NOT an Atheist?
Did you NOT write The Gospel Truth?

[My guess before getting his answer : not strictly Atheist - or he prefers spelling it with lower case a, but that's less likely.]

II

UAS

seen it, been there!

Hans Georg Lundahl

Ah, the place depicted?

III

[William P. Lazarus]

I don't care enough about any god to be an atheist. I'm not Jewish. I didn't write a book to debunk Christianity. I write history books based on research. If it "debunks" a religion, it's simply because the facts rarely conform to belief. Any religious historian can tell you that. But you're too busy trying to prove the Earth is flat and only a few thousand years old.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Wait, you didn't write this book?

The Gospel Truth Perfect Paperback – February 10, 2011
by William P. Lazarus (Author), Halifax Country Publishers (Editor), Mary V. Wentzel (Illustrator)
https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Truth-William-P-Lazarus/dp/0982970021

Or you mean this applies? "I didn't write a book to debunk Christianity. I write history books based on research. If it 'debunks' a religion, it's simply because the facts rarely conform to belief."

Because, you see, you sent me an example, and your will to debunk Christianity was very obvious, but your quality of research was deplorable. Recall first part of my review? "In other words, WPL, as I will abbreviate him, is giving a scenario which I consider as free fantasy novel. So far, my resumé of chapter 1."

And your accountability for how you get your supposed information was deplorable too, you pretended 16 Church Fathers had cited Josephus and not cited TF:

"Now, we have a problem. WPL gives no footnote. I cannot check which 16 Church Fathers* [!] WPL means, nor how many of them were commenting on the Jewish War rather than on Antiquities, nor how many complain of him overlooking Jesus and in what terms."

Your having some kind of relation to Jewry is also either from my memory of the preface or from a discussion we had after. Here my source is lost to me, since I no longer have the book.

"Any religious historian can tell you that."

Religious historians often enough are not historians.

"But you're too busy trying to prove the Earth is flat and only a few thousand years old."

I am Geocentric, but not a Flat Earther.

I am also not "trying to prove", since there are prima facie cases for both (our view of the heavenly bodies and the Biblical timeline), I am just defending both against supposed disproof.

[William P. Lazarus]

Nonsense. You let belief dictate your "studies." No legitimate scientist thinks the world is a few thousand years old. No legitimate religious historian accepts mythology as fact. I've attended and participated in enough seminars to know even rigid fundamentalists accept proven findings. I'm done answering anything you write. It's just a waste of time.

Hans Georg Lundahl

You let your lack of interest in any god dictate yours.

"No legitimate scientist thinks the world is a few thousand years old."

Not relevant if true. Scientists are not infallible, even collectively.

Also not true, there are lots of scientists on CMI (Creation Ministries International), in fact I think a PhD is a requirement with them for writing for them.

Except, if you make it circular. Calling them illegitimate scientists because they consider Genesis true.

"No legitimate religious historian accepts mythology as fact."

As said, I don't think "religious history" stands up as good history, often enough. Especially not your version.

" I've attended and participated in enough seminars to know even rigid fundamentalists accept proven findings."

And what "proven findings" are you referring to here? You have shown none.

"I'm done answering anything you write. It's just a waste of time."

Reminds me of 'Allo 'Allo! and the line "listeune vèrie kèrefoulie, aï ouil séï zis ônli once"