Intro to Raqia debate with Drew Gasaway

Debate with Drew Gasaway on YEC as relating to inter alia Jericho · Intro to Raqia debate with Drew Gasaway

Intro to Raqia debate with Drew Gasaway · Midrash part of Debate with Drew · Raqia : debate on 3 Baruch 3:5-8 · Raqia debate : Josephus (and Philo) · Raqia debate : Hezekiel 1:22 · Raqia debate : Psalm 148 · Raqia debate : Genesis Day 4

Drew Gasaway

Admin

16th January 2020, 07:02 am

People say that you can't prove that Moses used mythology in Genesis or that "raqia" or "firmament" or "expanse" as some Bibles have mistranslated it is a crystalline dome. Well, you are about to shown wrong and to show from scripture they thought that in addition to the sources that help us understand Hebrew. You will see the correct reading of Genesis not only matches mythology but it is impossible.

[parts omitted here as given elsewhere with their threads, except following last one to which computer time was too short to respond]

From the Sumerian myth, Enuma Elish which says, "The Great Abode, Esharra, which he made as the firmament. Anu, Enlil, and Ea he made occupy their places. Marduk puts the heavens in order, establishing the zodiac and telling the moon how to shine."

The picture below is from ancient Eygpt so this was a common theme in the ancient near east mythology. This doesn't mean Genesis or the message of the rest of the Old Testament isn't true. It just means we have to look at things in the ancient near east before Herodotus differently.

Hans Georg Lundahl

responded to various parts here omitted and given on other parts with corresponding threads.

Biblical Spotlight

In my view, many do not take into account, the level of understanding, (or lack thereof), predates any possible attempts at assuming the scriptures were written by learn men, but only of that time. Trying to establish whether these writings are made of true weight or not, is like trying to argue with a thirteen year old, after he has determined he knows everything. Please pay more attention to the value within the human nature of those times, rather whose right or not.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am not sure who you are trying to compare to a thirteen year old.

Biblical Spotlight

I'm not speaking of today's historians, but to the level of insight from those of five thousand years ago.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

In that case, foreseen as possible, while I waited, you are like certain colonialists of the 19th C. in the attitude they had to "primitive people".

A Siberian Shaman is not a man with the immaturity of a thirteen year old, it is an adult with another and heretical outlook on life. Even as to "a thirteen year old" who has "determined he knows everything", some thirteen year olds do know some subjects better than their dads do, because they actually studied them, which the dad had or took no opportunity for.

Biblical Spotlight

Fair enough. However, I have looked into several nations' beliefs and faiths from 3 to 5 thousand years ago and similar ideals or perceptions, were collectively known in those times. For example, everyone knew the Earth was flat, which we now know different. Everyone knew that the stars were under a dome, which we now know, are both stars and galaxies that go on for millions of light years. And of coarse, everyone knew that the Earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around it. Shall I go on? There was nothing really wrong with their strength in faith, but because these peoples were merely starting out into becoming a civilized cultivation among men, their perceptions could only contain what they understood. As was once posed to Confucius what virtue was, he replied, "It is to love men. Wisdom is to understand them."

Hans-Georg Lundahl

It's like saying everyone in the Middle Ages wore plate armour and everyone in the Middle Ages from 476 to Reformation feared the Inquisition ... and obviously, St. Jerome's Bible had no native readers after Emperor Romulus Augustulus was no longer in place, that miraculously changed the native language of everyone who had lived under him. Just by overgeneralising the separation of Latin and vernacular, which started in non-Latin and delatinised British Isles and Germanies and became standard on Roman territory starting in France between 800 and 813.

Not only your generalisation on "flat earth" but also your generalisation about the present:

"which we now know, are both stars and galaxies that go on for millions of light years."

Yes, if I am a Medieval. Skipping the irony, no we don't everyone know that and those who think they do should quit speaking for inter alia me.

"And of coarse, everyone knew that the Earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around it."

Except apparently a disciple of Pythagoras ... it so happens, some of us still do.

"their perceptions could only contain what they understood."

For "flat earth" - you rather get absence of clear round earth than universal clear references to a flat one.

For heliocentrism and billions of light years, you'd need to argue this is something "we" (inluding you but actually not me) understand now, and something which makes us more civilised.

Emperor's New Clothes, and closely connected to new barbarism.

Biblical Spotlight

I have seven different Bible versions on my top shelf, along with two copies of the Apocrypha, one of The Lost Books of the Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden, another writer's version of the Collected gospels called; THE GOSPEL, by Kermit Zarley, Dialogues of Plato, Plato's work on The Last Days of Socrates, writings of Confusius, A copy of the Koran, one on Understanding Islam, Eerdman's Handbook to the Worlds Religions, a small collection of Benjamin Franklin's Wit and Wisdom, Mysteries of The Holy Grail, The Case For the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel, Greatest Miracle In The World by Og Mandino, I'm OK - You're OK by Thomas A Harris, M.D., (which by the way displays one of the best illustrations of human nature, using geometrical methods), and two full Encyclopedias, (which, helped pave an interesting picture of how much Emperor Constantine the Great had to do with how we view Christianity today). This is besides what I look up on line at viable, not propaganda sites. So if you don't mind, please don't play games with me. I love Earth science and have been studying human nature and psychology most of my life. In spite of all this, my love an admiration for Jesus has multiplied a hundredfold, once I picked up on the horrible conditions he was trying to correct back then. The sad thing is, because of past history interference, almost no one is aware of this.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am sadly neither playing games with you, nor getting through that I am not so.

It seems you made religion and philosophy your pursuit, and theory of knowledge and specifically on how we want to view events in ancient texts and authorships of them has not been that.

I was a fan of Sherlock Holmes and a somewhat naive admirer of palaeontologists before becoming at age nine a Christian.

I have also not forgotten how CSL argued about the Higher Critics taking the Fourth Gospel as "a spiritual novel or more precisely an allegory". He mentioned, this is worthless from a man spending all of his life studying the Gospels and none of it studying the literary genres of novels and of allegories.

"This is besides what I look up on line at viable, not propaganda sites."

In other words, you are hidebound about where you get your information from.

"how much Emperor Constantine the Great had to do with how we view Christianity today"

Shall I take it you are the heretical and anti-Catholic school who considers Catholicism a product of Constantine? Like Langdon, Neveu and most of all Teabing in a novel by a Brown.

"I love Earth science"

Why have you not looked up earth science answers on the Creationist side?

"and have been studying human nature and psychology most of my life."

You include psychology as an academic subject (whether you took it or read books of it by yourself)? That's a bit like studying astrology.

[after looking up his profile]

What's your problem with St. John's Gospel?

The way "Jews" or "the Jews" is used?

The narrator living when "Jews" had become a name for the non-Christian sect used it as a substitute for diverse factions opposing Jesus, while Our Lord used it as the name of the people and religious covenant He belonged to.

Biblical Spotlight

I myself was brought up as a Catholic. I also learned, that philosophy was a required subject for those who were preparing for priesthood. But it was not until later that I put some real effort into understanding the Teachings of Jesus. After running into some issues that were contradicting, I asked the Lord for His blessing, on taking on the four Gospels as one collective matter. In other words, I was taking a Huge leap of Faith. I did get a sign of acknowledgment, but also a vision warning, for anyone going that far. That was over forty years ago. Since then, my love and admiration for Jesus has multiplied a hundredfold, now that I have acquired a richer understanding of the whole picture. And a huge picture it is and very few that see it. How can they, when the character of Jesus was used as a leverage in their scheme of things, while the real reason he was trying to teach truth to the unfortunate ones, because of their own leaders in that time, was swept under the rug. One of my personal statements goes like this; "Most of us are willing to accept the true teachings of wisdom, unless it should happen to fall across our personal paths of preference." It's human nature to the core. By the way, I do appreciate you getting back to me, and on a kind note, I may add. thank you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You are welcome, if you think the note is kind.

But your personal relation to Jesus is not by and of itself a qualification for upholding what you are saying.

With this "journey" in mind, perhaps there are a few more steps to take, or even a turn to make - read Pilgrim's Regress by C. S. Lewis on that latter item, please!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

bis

As to philosophy, I suggest you rebrush Theory of Knowledge. If you were more or less saying Christendom after Constantine has swept truth under the carpet for personal preference, I disagree.

Other threads

(those alluded to above) continued after Biblical spotlight had made his comment, with this short thread to it.