Midrash part of Debate with Drew

Intro to Raqia debate with Drew Gasaway · Midrash part of Debate with Drew · Raqia : debate on 3 Baruch 3:5-8 · Raqia debate : Josephus (and Philo) · Raqia debate : Hezekiel 1:22 · Raqia debate : Psalm 148 · Raqia debate : Genesis Day 4

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Drew Gasaway

Here are some Midrashim or commentaries from early Judaism on "raqia;"

Midrash Tanchuma, Shoftim 11:1 says, "Abram and Sarai would not have a child. What did the Holy One, blessed be He, do for them? Rabbi Yehudah beRabbi Simon said in the name of Rabbi Chanin, "It is written (Genesis 15:5), 'And He took him outside and said, "Observe towards the heavens."' He raised him above the dome of the firmament (raqia)."

Shaar HaEmunah Ve'Yesod HaChassidut, Introduction to Beit Yaakov 13:6 says, "This means the God raised Abraham above the dome of the firmament so that all the goodness he receives will come directly from God.”

Or HaChaim on Genesis 1:15:2 says, "And according to the words of the Sages (Chagigah 12:), of blessed memory, that the stars are in the second firmament, the stars only break through the first firmament and the firmament shines upon the earth."

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Midrash Tanchuma, Shoftim 11:1
Shaar HaEmunah Ve'Yesod HaChassidut, Introduction to Beit Yaakov 13:6
Or HaChaim on Genesis 1:15:2

Dome of the firmament are words totally compatible with the aether circulating around earth each day, taking stars with them.

Either the dome is the part known as magnetic field or the dome is the part rotating, and either way, firmament could be the aether. First and second firmament imply that even if all the aether is "firmament" there are divisions in it, so that waters above really are above one of them. Better for my view, since I was willing to translate "above" as "in the upper part of" with the proviso a Hebraist should look at it, since I don't know enough of Hebrew prepositions to say aye or nay to my hunch definitely.

Comment by Biblical Spotlight

came before Drew posted below as a separate thread.

Drew Gasaway

Hans-Georg Lundahl on Midrash Tanchuma, Shoftim 11:1
Shaar HaEmunah Ve'Yesod HaChassidut, Introduction to Beit Yaakov 13:6 Or HaChaim on Genesis 1:15:2

Domes aren't spheres.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Domes aren't spheres."

Spheres are a kind of very completed domes, since domes in the most usual sense are incomplete spheres.

Also, the thing you seemed to want to prove with the quotes was solidity, not "flat earth".

It was as to solidity that I considered the quotes were weak.

Drew Gasaway

Hans-Georg Lundahl no from Merriam Webster, "a large hemispherical roof or ceiling." Do roofs have a floor? A lot of them probably did think the earth was flat a lot of early Christians and Jews believe Job, Isaiah and the Psalm's proved the earth was flat and the Greek and Roman philosophers were pushing a sphere to take the center away from man in the universe and remove God above.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

// no from Merriam Webster, "a large hemispherical roof or ceiling." //

Merriam Webster is not an authority for how Hebrews used "dome" and Duden is not an authority for how Greeks used the original equivalent of the German word Mythus.

"A lot of them probably did think the earth was flat"

A "lot of them" doesn't tie the hagiographer.

"a lot of early Christians and Jews believe Job, Isaiah and the Psalm's proved the earth was flat"

Is Lactantius a lot to you? Or can you prove parallels from Sts Irenaeus or Hippolytus?

"and the Greek and Roman philosophers were pushing a sphere to take the center away from man in the universe and remove God above."

Were they? Or are you saying early Christians thought they were?

Drew Gasaway

Hans-Georg Lundahl for example of flat earthers there were a lot of Jews and Christians like St. Lactantius, St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil and St.Jerome,

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am saying some early Christians even in the reformation era believed astronomy was a move against God. Luther and Calvin did seem to state the shape of the earth just that they believed there was a hard firmament and Luther was a firm believer the things we could see in space were stock in it and thought the astronomers were working against the faith.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"St. Lactantius,"

Lactantius : agreed, didn't know he had a feast day ....

"St. Athanasius,"

Considering "earth" as a disc on waters can mean that he uses the word as you think from early Egyptian parallels, a disc floating on an infinite ocean, and can also mean he used the word as "continent". As the context says he also considered the waters as a globe in the centre of the universe, I opt for the latter.

"St. John Chrysostom,"

Possible, haven't refreshed this quote in a while.

"St. Basil"

More like he was indifferent. He considered the different philosophical options as a waste of time.

"and St.Jerome,"

I'd like a quote on this one.

"some early Christians even in the reformation era believed astronomy was a move against God."

You have overstated the Patristic era "flat earth" case, and you can't speak of people in the Reformation era as being early Christians, but you could mean "even as late as" and you would be missing out on Scholasticism in between and on how Reformation dumped scholasticism and Patristics.

For Patristics other than Lactantius, reference please. Actually, for Lactantius too, reference please, I start getting suspicious. When an early Christian says "astronomers blaspheme God" they usually mean about freewill vs "influence of stars" on human fates. The word was very commonly used as synonym for astrologer.

Drew Gasaway

Hans-Georg Lundahl St. Basil said, "What shall we answer? One thing only: because the interior of a body presents a perfect concavity it does not necessarily follow that its exterior surface is spherical and smoothly rounded. Look at the stone vaults of baths, and the structure of buildings of cave form; the dome, which forms the interior, does not prevent the roof from having a flat surface. Let these unfortunate men cease, then, from tormenting us and themselves about the impossibility of our obtaining the water above." (Hexaemeron 3:4)

Hans-Georg Lundahl they and others cite the Jerome quote but without proper citation which commentary on Isaiah isn't there is no way to know. Other writings in and the Vulgate can be taken to mean circle or sphere so that isn't as clear cut as some have said. He made big mistakes in the Vulgate but not that big.

Fathers of the Church on the Flat Earth
Flat Earth Trads | 11.IV.2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS_GyIlqr-w

Hans-Georg Lundahl in the case of Martin Luther it was very clear he didn't mix words what his issue was. They were going against what the scriptures plainly said about the earth and the stars he said. That was the same issue he took with geocentrism it went against the book of Joshua that said the earth didn't more, in other words, it didn't rotate and that it said the sun circles the earth. On geocentrism, you had people as late and mainstream as Arthur Pink fighting astronomers the efforts to launch the space program.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

St. Basil quote given is more like suggesting offhand a flat roof over the heavens, to hold a water reservoir, than suggesting a flat floor under the vault.

He probably did not bother or master the idea of Aristotle that "down" doesn't mean one uniform direction with every "down" parallel to every other "down", and that "down" instead means approaching to the centre point of the universe. This does not mean he was actively opposing a round earth.

HENCE - no, St. Basil was not teaching a flat earth in this quote, he was throwing off a possibility to counter a physical argument he didn't know the correct physical answer to.

"they and others cite the Jerome quote"

Which St. Jerome quote? Is it given in the video?

"That was the same issue he took with geocentrism it went against the book of Joshua that said the earth didn't more, in other words, it didn't rotate and that it said the sun circles the earth. On geocentrism, you had people as late and mainstream as Arthur Pink fighting astronomers the efforts to launch the space program."

Not a fan of Luther, but St Robert Bellarmine took exactly same view when reviewing some theses or a book by Galileo.

Yes, Joshua excludes the apparent rotation of Sun and Moon from being an apparent only rotation due to an inverse rotation of Earth. If not in verse 13, which could be phenomenal language, in verse 12, as Joshua is adressing the entity which is miraculously changing behaviour.

Plus St. Robert's argument that if only Earth had stopped rotating, Moon having a monthly movement (even on Galileo's view) would imply that during the 12 or 24 hours the Moon would have visibly moved, instead of fully stopping.

Plus the parallel from Habacuc, about them standing still "in their orbits" = where they were, not just from Earth perspective.