William P. Lazarus Fakes Victim Statistics

American Center for Law and Justice

11 avril 2014

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Hans-Georg Lundahl

shared a memory

11 avril, 13:52 (2018)

Content:

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Galatians 2:20 [KJV] I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The U. S. Air Force Academy has banned this Bible verse from a cadet's pesonal whiteboard. Fight for religious liberty in the military.

ACLJ.org

[Found the verse as Today's Verse: Galatians 2:20 (KJV) Monday, April 7, 2014, on heartlight.org fitting well with occasion when Obama's military was interfering with the cadet's Christianity.]

I

William P. Lazarus

How about we fight for freedom from religion?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No, Soviets had that as an excuse to persecute Christianity and so had, briefly, Azaña in Spain.

And, closer to you, Plutarco Elías Calles, provoking Cristeros rising, and, a bit earlier, Clémenceau, killing Catholics who tried to defend Churches against confiscation.

In other words, no, I am not joining Satan's elect.

William P. Lazarus

Of course, you have to postulate an imaginary Satan for that to make sense. May I remind you that no one has ever killed anyone to force them not to believe in a god. The reverse is not true.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"May I remind you that no one has ever killed anyone to force them not to believe in a god."

That would be very tenuous advocacy.

The teachers of Calles were not killed to force them to believe in God, but to stop them from forcing school children to NOT believe in God.

The millions of Christians killed by Communists were technically not killed "for believing in God" but for illegal (i e illegal about Communist laws) acts made out of faith or similar to Christian beliefs.

And many of them were technically not killed by the government, but so mistreated in prisons and mental hospitals that they died.

No, the Satan who is behind these is not imaginary, nor are their crimes.

William P. Lazarus

Let's contrast with the millions (maybe billions) killed for declining to believe in the Christian, Muslim or Jewish god. Or for believing something not considered orthodox. That's why I prefer freedom from religion. Believe what you want, as long as you keep it to yourself, don't try to impose it on anyone else and don't pretend that, simply because you believe it, it's true.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

William P. Lazarus "Let's contrast with the millions (maybe billions) killed for declining to believe in the Christian, Muslim or Jewish god."

Documentation in real history?

I mean, not that some have, but that they have been "millions"?

" Believe what you want, as long as you keep it to yourself, don't try to impose it on anyone else and don't pretend that, simply because you believe it, it's true."

You are trying to "impose" fake history, because you believe it.

William P. Lazarus

Please. You've never heard of the Inquisition, the Crusades? That's just the tip of the iceberg. The 100 Years War? That's just the Christian side, not including burning at the stake, herems and the like. Throw in ISIS as well as Muslim conquests, which offered conversion or the sword, and the list of dead grows impressively. Jews, the only time they had power to do so, took over Samaria with the same convert or die option close to 2100 years ago. You know that history or should.

Fake history? Only if you choose to be completely ignorant, which you are not.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

William P. Lazarus "You've never heard of the Inquisition, the Crusades?"

Neither would amount to millions killed, especially for simply refusing to believe.

"That's just the tip of the iceberg."

No.

"The 100 Years War?"

Both sides were Catholic, so it was no killing for religion.

If you meant the Thirty Years War, there was killing over religious control, same issue you would like to meddle with.

"That's just the Christian side, not including burning at the stake, herems and the like."

Herems (unless you mean Harems) is not a word I know, and is probably not a Christian thing.

Burning was a minor part of those tried by Inquisition, and that is documented.

William P. Lazarus "Throw in ISIS as well as Muslim conquests, which offered conversion or the sword,"

Sounds like it starts to rival a bit with Communism - if you mean Islam over centuries compared to Communism over one.

William P. Lazarus "Jews, the only time they had power to do so, took over Samaria with the same convert or die option close to 2100 years ago."
v Details?

(Hardly millions.) It can be added, the most lethal warlords of the Middle Ages were Mongols, Tatars and Huns - also secularists, like more recent Communists.

[anon 1] - you are historian.
Stephan Borgehammar - you are Church historian.

William P. Lazarus (...) claims that the millions killed by Communists for being Christians can't rival victims of just Crusades and Inquisition.

What say you?

William P. Lazarus

Idiot: the Communists had their own religion. It's just not one you recognize. They killed in the name of that religion. You are really sick. Adding up total people murdered for religion? What difference is there if there's 1 billion or 100 million. Murder is murder, and all in the name of a god, whether that god is named Stalin,Mao, Hitler or Jesus.

Stephan Borgehammar

That sounds like a serious misconception. Research on the infamous Spanish Inquisition has found that it led to the execution of 826 persons out of more than 44,000 accused. We must remember that the inquisition was a judicial court which required solid evidence in order to convict. When it comes to the Crusades they were large warlike expeditions, but there is no reason to suppose that the number of casualties was greater than in other wars. They had no “convert or die” policy because forced baptisms are not allowed in Christianity (are in fact invalid). There were occasional atrocities to be sure, but these happen in all wars. They are due to human nature, not to religion.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"the Communists had their own religion. It's just not one you recognize. They killed in the name of that religion. You are really sick."

Same with "freedom from religion".

" What difference is there if there's 1 billion or 100 million."

You were the one claiming Inquisition and Crusades by far outdid deaths by Atheism.

Obviously, if you exclude Communism from Atheism, because Communism is a religion, which I agree on, you will also have to exclude any other concrete Atheism from Atheism - because all concrete Atheism involves some kind of religion.

Yours too - starting with de-Theisticised Judaism Lite.

Obviously, zero on that count is less than 826 killed by Spanish Inquisition ... but that count is uninteresting.

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William P. Lazarus

This one is for you:

William P. Lazarus : Freedom From Religion
https://williamplazarus.blogspot.fr/2018/04/freedom-from-religion.html

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Ah you have a blog ...

"Then there are the incredibly dense Facebook writers who insist Christians are being persecuted. .... One" /// feel free to insert my name.

I am a blogger and take credit for my words.

"Pope Francis made that same observation this year as well."

Feel free to link to news story about Antipope Bergoglio ...

William P. Lazarus

What's the point since you've already discredited him? He simply pointed out how much pain and suffering people claiming religious faith have inflicted on others. In that, he joins a long line of people -- historians and religious leaders -- to decry religion-based violence.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The point is, I am cautious not to accuse him on merely indirect reference.

III

Hans-Georg Lundahl

In 1683 I think some Poles killed some Turks in the vicinity of Vienna, Poles being Catholics and Turks Muslims.

Did the Poles just attack due to Muslims remaining Muslims, or was there some other factor involved? Would you mind refreshing memories, perhaps especially that of Bill Lazarus? [anon 2]

[anon 2], since you absent, I'll simply link to a page:

The second Turkish siege of Vienna, 1683
http://www.habsburger.net/en/events/second-turkish-siege-vienna-1683

William P. Lazarus - read up, if you think Crusades were about killing Muslims for refusing to be Christians.

William P. Lazarus

I never said that. It was an effort to impose one religious view on another. Crusaders also killed Jews, too, remember? There are economic factors as well, but Bernard and Innocent didn't promote the crusade as anything but a religious effort to take the Holy Land and make Christianity the prominent faith there.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"It was an effort to impose one religious view on another."

As in forcing Muslims to become Christians? No.

"Crusaders also killed Jews, too, remember?"

In sporadic war crimes mainly under first Crusade, when the army was mainly an untrained and undisciplined levy of volunteers.

"There are economic factors as well, but Bernard and Innocent didn't promote the crusade as anything but a religious effort to take the Holy Land and make Christianity the prominent faith there."

As you would like to make absense of religion prominent, at least absence of publically announced religion.