jeudi 20 juillet 2017

On Bible Canon (and Some Other Inbetween)

Great Bishop of Geneva! : Do Maccabees Disclaim Divine Inspiration? · HGL's F.B. writings : On Bible Canon (and Some Other Inbetween)

Cody Rieger
12 juillet, 17:01
Who decided what books to add or leave out of the bible? Do we believe this group if people to be infallible? Is it possible that there are other books not in the Bible that are the word of God? Or even some in the Bible that aren't the word of God?


Hans-Georg Lundahl
Both Ezra and the Maccabees were successors of Aaron and had the power to make collections of Holy Writings, that of Ezra corresponds to Jewish Bible and Protestant OT, I consider it possible that that of the Maccabees (or one of them being a priest) was including more books like the LXX, the Greek Christian OT.

THEN bishops and Popes of Rome were deciding about what books were involved in NT, as successors of Apostles.

Michel Snoeck
Personally I find it seriously suspect that the chosen 66 books were picked by man and decided upon in the 4th Century, and then destroying/banning all the rest? Wouldn't the Devil be obliged to support such a thing? 🤔 The Dead Sea scrolls and the Nag Hamadi finds add a whole different reality on matters that we didn't know about before. Of course because of the hunting down and destruction of these books, we are not likely to find completely original versions of these books. They would have been interfered with.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
But the "66 books" were not decided any time before Luther, and the Catholic Church decided for 73 books "all these 72 books, or 73 if Baruch be counted separately from Jeremiah".

Also, the Catholic Church has not banned book of Henoch, III and IV Maccabees, the book which in Byzantium is called I Ezra (not to be confused with Catholic I Ezra = Ezra, with Nehemiah = Catholic II Ezra and Byzantine III Ezra).

She has banned and also destroyed copies of clearly heretical books like Gospel of Thomas and so on.

"Of course because of the hunting down and destruction of these books, we are not likely to find completely original versions of these books. They would have been interfered with."

Are you saying God could have:

  • 1) allowed all Christians to reject a book of His word;
  • 2) allowed all Christians knowing about it to persecute it;
  • 3) AND allowed whoever was preserving it to alter it?

Frank Waggoner
cody, what book needs to be added, second the books if the nt were accepted in the chrurches the first century, it was not a fouth centrury descision

Davor Slema Masle
The Bible has failed fair, impartial, and universally applicable tests in multiple fields of science.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
It was a fourth C decision for the whole list.

The Bible has failed no test.

Ivan Shiek
It is not men that decide what stays or what goes, but the Holy Spirit that leads.

You see men moving but you do not see the Creator's strings.

Ryan M Jason
If God wanted to give you a message no one could stop him.No one could snatch you from his hand.Apocrypha is unconfirmed

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Depends on what you consider apocrypha.

Seven books protestants call so are canonic, and the Catholic Church is making God's message certainly remain.

Ryan M Jason
[showing what interception means in a gif or sth]

God's word can not be intercepted

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Exactly - that is why I believe the Catholic canon and the Catholic Church.

For a "66 book canon" there would have been an interception between Primitive Church and Reformation.

Precisely why I reject the Reformation and adher to the canon of 72 books "or 73 if Baruch is counted separately from Jeremiah" as per council of Trent!

Ryan M Jason
Yeah I used to be a catholic.Did not even know what it was.They added to the bible.I don't agree with it

Hans-Georg Lundahl
If you say they added to the Bible, you are claiming - not I, but you - that the word of God was intercepted.

OR you show a Church which all the time existed beside Catholics and had the 66 books.

Ryan M Jason
Did not say the Catholic bible was the word of God.Its not.Its apocrypha.Get you a King James.I got a king James that's not even a King James.So becareful

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Why would KJV be the word of God, when it has a number of books considered canonic which is nowhere explicitly mentioned before Reformation, and when it has also "14 apocrypha" = 7 Catholic canon, 7 more considered not canonic by Catholics?

You said yourself the word of God cannot be intercepted.

This should show all through history.

Btw, if you have a KJV with ONLY 66 books, that is not properly speaking a KJ Bible.

Ryan M Jason
Apocrypha that's why I don't read the Catholic bible.You believe the hand of God can be stopped?Who is your God?Name him?

[showing two explicit gifs about Satan and one about magic/sorcery]

[showing text of Apocalypse 22:16-21, here substituting Haydock / Douay Rheims for his meme:]

16 I, Jesus, have sent my Angel, to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and stock of David, the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say: Come. And he that heareth, let him say: Come. And he that thirsteth, let him come: *and he that will, let him take the water of life, gratis.

[His meme has "freely" instead of "gratis" - both mean "for free", or "without paying money"]

18 For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book.

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things which are written in this book.

20 He that giveth testimony of these things, saith: Surely, I come quickly: Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

It says freely not secretly

Who is your God?25 minutes to pick one?I thought you did your research?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"Who is your God?Name him?"

God the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

You still don't get, with the historic evidence we have it is your believing II Maccabees is apocrypha which implies God's hand was stopped.

And your quote from Apocalypse is very interesting for the Protestants who are cutting 7 books and 3 chapters away from the Bible.

As to "freely not secretly" what is your problem?

Catholicism is NOT a secret society.

And my answer taking time is because I was logged out and am answering other points too.

Ryan M Jason
Emanuel God with us.Who is your God?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Jesus Christ is indeed Emanuel, and remaining with us - that is why I chose a Church which remained under Him on Earth, not one which went into the clouds for centuries.

Ryan M Jason
So your Pope is your Father?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Under Christ, yes.

Ryan M Jason
I think praying to the Virgen is bad changing the Sabbath is worse.They have lots of pagan beliefs.Lots of secrets.They with the Masons

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I'll take above one by one, with due consideration.

Ryan M Jason
Repetitious prayer

Graven Images

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Added to list.

Ryan M Jason
What do you think is the biggest thing one can miss from not reading the Catholic bible?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Here comes my answer to a whole list of comments:

"I think praying to the Virgen is bad"

Why did She say the opposite in the praises of God before Elisabeth?

Henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

That is what we are doing in each Hail Mary.

"changing the Sabbath is worse."

Except God Himself changed it. By resting in the Grave on Saturday and rising on Sunday.

"They have lots of pagan beliefs."

According to certain people who think if a pagan calls 2+2=4, a good Christian must call 2+2=5?

"Lots of secrets.They with the Masons"

No. There is no secret doctrine which you could not have accessed in your very early days of adolescent Catholic (supposing you were one) by looking into one or other Catechism (meaning a traditional one) or work of theology.

The Summa Theologica by St Thomas Aquinas is available in English and online, and laymen are not forbidden to read it:


Also, here is Haydock Bible commentary from 1859, also online, in English and not forbidden reading for laymen:

Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition.

"Repetitious prayer"

Never condemned anywhere. Not if by "repetitious" you mean repeating words or phrases.

"Graven Images"

Which were under Old Covenant generally speaking forbidden, before God could be depicted since Incarnation.

"What do you think is the biggest thing one can miss from not reading the Catholic bible?"

One thing is prayers for the faithful departed, recommended in II Maccabees and in Tobit.

Btw, if you take time, how about checking what you condemn in Catholicism and your supposed proof texts against it, with what Catholics can study in the Haydock Bible?

Ryan gave a few memes:

It took me longer to answer them than for him to post them. I start out trying to answer:

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Ryan M Jason If a person dies in Christ, he certainly goes to Heaven sooner or later. Often later via Purgatory.

Also, for many persons we don't know which way they went, God didn't tell us by any miracle, so we can also pray for his having died in Christ.

Ryan M Jason "No change in one's spiritual condition" is overinterpretation.

No change as to damnation or salvation, yes, but the saved ones can be transferred from Purgatory to Heaven, and for many they also need prayers for what God did before we prayed, but did not tell us what He did before we prayed, when judging that soul.

So, praying after someone's death is NOT praying that a damned person should be saved.

Ryan M Jason
Apocrypha it contradicts.Now they pray to the Virgen they repetitious prayer.They have graven Images they call another man Father religiously.They pray to the virgen? 3-3=0

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Ryan M Jason We certainly do believe II Maccabees 12 (46?) is a valid proof text.

You also have no historic proof for a 66 book canon existing in any Church firmly before Protestants invented it.

But there are other perhaps less direct proof texts, like Onesiphorus.

Ryan M Jason
Pray to God he will give you closure it took me three years before I got an answer it rolled off my tongue when I woke up.My mind was unusually blank when it happend

The good in a person you will see again.If you go to heaven.Anything good was of God.Even a snake loves its babys.Can you identify that verse and explain the meaning to me please??

The verse is.Even a snake loves its babys.New testament

[Still have not found it, suspect he made it up to check my Bible knowledge and judge me ignorant for not dismissing it offhand like when Kent Hovind quotes "II Opinions" in one speech - anyone knowing the Bible knows that is not there.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Double posted,
did not show first time:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him: Amen, I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

This does not teach no one goes to Purgatory, but that Saint Dismas didn't.

Phil. 1:23 But I am straitened between two; having a desire to be dissolved, and to be with Christ, being by much the better:

Does not teach that every saved person goes straight to heaven, but possibly that St Paul counted on doing so.

II Cor 5:6 Therefore, having always confidence, knowing that, while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, and not by sight)

8 We are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Does NOT teach that every Christian who dies in Christ goes to Heaven immediately.

"Apocrypha it contradicts."

It contradicts your interpretation, but not the Bible.

"Now they pray to the Virgen they repetitious prayer.They have graven Images they call another man Father religiously.They pray to the virgen? 3-3=0"

So, so, so, so?

Already answered those points, you think repeating them will prove your bad logic?

"Pray to God he will give you closure it took me three years before I got an answer it rolled off my tongue when I woke up.My mind was unusually blank when it happend"

I did my praying when converting to Catholicism and a few times within it.

"The good in a person you will see again.If you go to heaven.Anything good was of God.Even a snake loves its babys.Can you identify that verse and explain the meaning to me please?? The verse is.Even a snake loves its babys.New testament"

No, I can't.

And if you happen to know a Bible text I don't know, good for you, but doesn't prove you right on interpretation of the rest or even on that one. Where, what book chapter and verse?

Ryan M Jason
The only intercessor

[showing text of John 14:4-13, same procedure as above:]

4 And whither I go you know, and the way you know.

5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

7 If you had known me, you would surely have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.

8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us.

9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me, seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?

10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

12 Otherwise believe for the works themselves. Amen, amen, I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he shall do also, and greater than these shall he do: because I go to the Father.

13 *And whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

[showing text of 14, basically the rest up to 26, same procedure:]

14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.

15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever,

17 The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live.

20 In that day, you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them: he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot, Lord, how is it, that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world?

23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him:

24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard is not mine: but the Father's who sent me.

25 These things have I spoken to you, remaining with you.

26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

Before going on with debate
please note there are words in the quoted chapter reminding us Christ is ALWAYS with the Apostles and presumably therefore their successors, and that means with a Church containing such. The Paraclete was going to remind the apostles of all things Christ had said (meaning more than just what was contained in Gospel!) and He was going to do so ALWAYS. Not just the lifetime of the Apostles.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Yes, and where do you get it from we are NOT using Christ as intercessor?

Or that we are NOT keeping His commandments?

Ryan M Jason
[showing text of a great part of Matthew 23, probably referring to verse nine, same procedure:]

9 *And call none your father upon earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven.

[Yes, this is shorter than what his meme was, I'll be longer than it in a while!]

And bring all things to your remeberance.He shall teach you all things

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Call no man father?

Haydock hereon (see link already given):

Ver. 9-10. Call none your father ... Neither be ye called masters, &c. The meaning is, that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth: and no master is to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers, (1 Corinthians iv. 15,) and for our masters and teachers. (Challoner)

This name was a title of dignity: the presidents of the assembly of twenty-three judges where so called; the second judge of the sanhedrim, &c. (Bible de Vence)

Nothing is here forbidden but the contentious divisions, and self-assumed authority, of such as make themselves leaders and favourers of schisms and sects; as Donatus, Arius, Luther, Calvin, and innumerable others of very modern date. But by no means the title of father, attributed by the faith, piety, and confidence of good people, to their directors; for, St. Paul tells the Corinthians, that he is their only spiritual Father: If you have 10,000 instructors in Christ, yet not many Fathers. (1 Corinthians iv. 15.)

And bring all things to your remeberance.He shall teach you all things

Yes, that promise was given by Christ, about the Holy Ghost TO - not you and me but - the first Catholic bishops.

Ryan M Jason
[showing text of Matthew 19:11, same procedure as above:]

11 He said to them: All receive not this word, but they to whom it is given.

[showing text of Matthew 10:19-40, with some verses omitted which I give, same procedure as above:]

19 But when they shall deliver you up, *be not thoughtful how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak.

20 For it is not you that speak, but the spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

21 The brother also shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the son: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and shall put them to death.

22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

23 And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come.

24 *The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household?

26 Therefore fear them not: *for there is nothing hid, that shall not be revealed: nor secret that shall not be known.

27 That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the house-tops.

28 And fear not them that kill the body, and cannot kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

29 *Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing: and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows.

32 *Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father, who is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father, who is in heaven.

34 *Do not think that I am come to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

36 *And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household.

37 *He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.

38 *And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: *and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

40 *He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
In quoting Matthew 19:11 you are quoting the very rationale for celibacy. Or did you conveniently forget the context?

As to the second quote, I am NOT delivering you, we are talking freely, you are free to respond as you entered the debate, and take whatever care you need to do so.

Ryan M Jason
[showing text of I Corinthians 4:17-18, same procedure as above:]

17 For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son, and faithful in the Lord: who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus, as I teach every where in every church.

18 Some are so puffed up, as though I would not come to you.

Call no man Father but yet you do?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Did you read the Haydock comment I quoted on that verse, or are you just responding by link after link without looking what I have to say?

Ryan M Jason
Has this saying been given to you Mathew 19:11

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I am not here delivered, so I am free to study as much as I like.

[Here responding as if he was speaking of Matthew 10:19, then noticing he was speaking of Matthew 19:11:]

Oh, if I am called to celibacy?

None of YOUR business, I think. I hope not.

What you have missed is that Matthew 11:40 and I Cor 4:17 are telling is something about APOSTOLIC succession.

How does YOUR pastor trace his succession back to the apostles?

Ryan M Jason

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Yes, but none of this shows there is NOT a distinction between Apostolic and non-Apostolic, there is.

And THAT distinction involves whom we should trust on the canon too.

Ryan M Jason
No partiality it says

Hans-Georg Lundahl
A distinction is not the same thing as partiality.

Titus and Timotheus were equally distinguished, but one Jew, one Gentile, without the partialities mentioned.

Both were in the exact distinguished position that the Catholic bishops have continued into this century.

Both were in the exact distinguished position you are NOT in.

[Nor am I, but I am obeying some who is or are, like Pope Michael. And for those who say "he's a layman", he was sacramentally speaking still not ordained and consecrated either before or immediately after his election, but his status changed in 2011, Gaudete weekend. I congratulated him while not yet acknowledging him as Pope. We had known each other before over internet, back since I was Palmarian.]

Ryan M Jason
No partiality

[showing text of a great part of Matthew 23, probably referring still to verse nine, but I now quote full passage, 1-14, sorry, 15, same procedure:]

1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitude and to his disciples,

2 Saying: *The Scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.

3 All therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not: for they say and do not.

4 *For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens: and lay them on men's shoulders: but with a finger of their own they will not move them.

5 And all their works they do to be seen by men: *For they make their phylacteries broad and enlarge their fringes.

6 *And they love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues,

7 And salutations in the market-place, and to be called by men, Rabbi.

8 *But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master, and all you are brethren.

9 *And call none your father upon earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, Christ.

11 He that is the greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 *And whosoever shall exalt himself, shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself, shall be exalted.

13 But wo to you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you go not in yourselves: and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

14 Wo to you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: *because you devour the houses of widows, making long prayers: therefore you shall receive the greater judgment.

15 Wo to you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: because you go round about the sea and land to make one proselyte: and when he is made, you make him the child of hell two-fold more than yourselves.

[I added last verse to the quote, because I think some people are trying to do that with me.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You have just quoted a proof text for us having to obey bishops even if they are sinners : they sit on the chairs of the Apostles, like the scribes of old sat on that of Moses.

Ryan M Jason
[gif with "to support a practise like partial birth abortion", probably showing a politician given communion by a bishop who should have excommunicated him.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I don't think a man giving a supporter of partial birth abortion communion is a Catholic, and therefore not a formal bishop.

Ryan M Jason
[gif with very clear "NOOO"]

I don't think Jesus was being partial when he said call no man Father religously in context

Hans-Georg Lundahl
The actual words were to call no man father.

Not "religiously". If you even say "David was the father of Solomon" you have called David father of someone and therefore broken the actual wording, if nothing is to be understood behind it.

If something IS to be understood behind it, look up the Corinthians reference I already quoted Haydock comment as giving!

But I note you are drifting away and away from the topics of both prayers for the dead and canon of OT.

Accusing the Catholic Church need not prove your Church is right. If accusation were right, Christianity would perhaps be wrong instead.

I don't believe that, so I am a Catholic.

You have heard my answer to Cody Rieger : the OT was compiled by successors of Aaron. The NT was compiled and OT confirmed (in Catholic form) by successors of the Apostles.

Your "no partiality" makes you need to answer the question : what man or what group of men first with lips of flesh and blood or hand on ink and pen and paper said or wrote St Matthew is a canonic Gospel, St Thomas' Gospel is not, St John's Apocalypse is the canonic NT Apocalypse, and St Peter's Apocalypse is not canonic.

Your position makes a real answer very hard.

added afterwards:

Ryan M Jason
Rabi he said also he was speaking religously

Upon seeing the wealth of the Catholic Church.I would assume that would be like going thru the eye of a needle.But he must have been speaking partially once again

I don't think partially was the word you wanted

Treated as previously:
1 And the word of the Lord came to me, *saying:

2 And thou son of man, dost thou not judge, dost thou not judge the city of blood?

3 And thou shalt shew her all her abominations, and shalt say: Thus saith the Lord God: This is the city that sheddeth blood in the midst of her, that her time may come: and that hath made idols against herself, to defile herself.

4 Thou art become guilty in thy blood which thou hast shed: and thou art defiled in thy idols which thou hast made: and thou hast made thy days to draw near, and hast brought on the time of thy years: therefore have I made thee a reproach to the Gentiles, and a mockery to all countries.

5 Those that are near, and those that are far from thee, shall triumph over thee: thou filthy one, infamous, great in destruction.

6 Behold the princes of Israel, every one hath employed his arm in thee, to shed blood.

7 They have abused father and mother in thee; they have oppressed the stranger in the midst of thee; they have grieved the fatherless and widow in thee.

8 Thou hast despised my sanctuaries, and profaned my sabbaths.

9 Slanderers have been in thee to shed blood, and they have eaten upon the mountains in thee, they have committed wickedness in the midst of thee.

10 They have discovered the nakedness of their father in thee, they have humbled the uncleanness of the menstruous woman in thee.

11 *And every one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's wife, and the father-in-law hath wickedly defiled his daughter-in-law, the brother hath oppressed his sister, the daughter of his father, in thee.

12 They have taken gifts in thee to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and hast covetously oppressed thy neighbours; and thou hast forgotten me, saith the Lord God.

[link see next meme]

Ryan M Jason
Even the house of David will answer to God

Treated as previously:
[continued from previous, same chapter]

25 There is a conspiracy of prophets in the midst thereof: like a lion that roareth and catcheth the prey, they have devoured souls; they have taken riches and hire, they have made many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have despised my law, and have defiled my sanctuaries: they have put no difference between holy and profane: nor have distinguished between the polluted and the clean: and they have turned away their eyes from my sabbaths, and I was profaned in the midst of them.

27 *Her princes in the midst of her, are like wolves ravening the prey to shed blood, and to destroy souls, and to run after gains, through covetousness.

28 And her prophets have daubed them without tempering the mortar, seeing vain things, and divining lies unto them, saying: Thus saith the Lord God: when the Lord hath not spoken.

29 The people of the land have used oppression, and committed robbery: they afflicted the needy and poor, and they oppressed the stranger by calumny without judgment.

30 And I sought among them for a man that might set up a hedge, and stand in the gap before me in favour of the land, that I might not destroy it: and I found none.

31 And I poured out my indignation upon them; in the fire of my wrath I consumed them: I have rendered their way upon their own head, saith the Lord God.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Ryan M Jason " the wealth of the Catholic Church.I would assume that would be like going thru the eye of a needle."

The Church is not a man, and the men of it are not wealthy, they only handly wealth for the common good.

Before going into more, you might want to know you have more of an audience than just me:

Great Bishop of Geneva! : Do Maccabees Disclaim Divine Inspiration?

That one was on Bible canon with another guy, Sarfati, who said few words which I answered briefly, but here is part two, mainly with you:

HGL's F.B. writings : On Bible Canon (and Some Other Inbetween)

"Rabi he said also he was speaking religously"

So you mean doctors and professors in any other matter than religion are scot free?

Is it not rather that rabbis made themselves candidates for being regarded so and won the award?

"I don't think partially was the word you wanted"

You are forgetting the meaning "in a partial way" or "in a manner of partiality". I suppose that one exists in English too.

The rest of your memes (this time) are concerned with abuses by OT distinctions (prophets, priests and royalty) and are warning against abusing distinctions, not against receiving them from the Church and dealing with them faithfully.

Note, having a rich temple adornment is NOT part of the abuses, since that was part of the original ordering of the Temple under King Solomon.

Christ drove cattle-mongers out of the Temple, He never tried to purify the walls of vessels of gold or silver.

Nor to attack the vestments of Aaronic priesthood.

And I see your own consistent answer on where the canon is from is still lacking.

Are you not given an answer, or is this not a situation where you are delivered, so you are free to study? In the latter case, use that freedom to some studying.

My own recommendations (for what they might be worth to you) would be reading the Haydock comment on each Bible verse you have cited so far.

Ryan M Jason
Treated as previously:
II Kings (!) 12:21 And his servants said to him: What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive: but after the child was dead, thou didst rise up and eat bread.

22 And he said: While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept for him: for I said: Who knoweth whether the Lord may not give him to me, and the child may live?

23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Shall I be able to bring him back any more? I shall go to him rather: but he shall not return to me.

It includes Bible chapters and books you don't acknowledge, but lacks none you do acknowledge or did cite.

Adding more
here starting with Luke Lefebvre's original answer to Cody Rieger:

Luke Lefebvre
The Protestant movement concluding with the work of the TR under the translation of the King James version of the Bible has brought together all the evidence available proving that the word of God is definitely in fallible and has never changed one bit...Voir plus

Hans-Georg Lundahl
" The Protestant movement concluding with the work of the TR under the translation of the King James version of the Bible has brought together all the evidence available proving that the word of God is definitely in fallible and has never changed one bit."

Funny your saying so, when the Protestant movement changed it itself!

Luke Lefebvre
The Protestant movement was a developing movement. People are not going to agree and get along but I can assure you the King James version of the Bible lead the way for the Protestant movement for 400 years. No protestant Bibles like to Geneva Bible or the chain Bible is in common use today. Clearly the King James has pressed all of those translation and provides in fallible textual evidence

There is not a verse or a word in the King James version of the Bible that cannot be substantiated with preserved in fallible textual evidence

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"I can assure you the King James version of the Bible lead the way for the Protestant movement for 400 years"

Among English speakers.

"No protestant Bibles like to Geneva Bible or the chain Bible is in common use today."

Among English speakers.

A French speaking Protestant is likely to use Geneva Bible or version Louis Segond.

The latter includes research more recent than KJV.

A German Protestant would either use Luther Bible or one including more recent research than KJV.

A Spanish speaking Protestant uses Reina Valera, which includes research more recent than KJV.

But even if the claim were true, even if KJV led the way totally without reserve for Louis Segond, Reina Valera, 1917 års översättning, and before that Bible of Charles XII, and after or beside Folkbibeln, which I don't think is true, that would not prove the KJV infallible. Since the Protestant movement is NOT the Church.

"There is not a verse or a word in the King James version of the Bible that cannot be substantiated with preserved in fallible textual evidence"

I wonder about that one ... especially choices of translation.

Does KJV have bishop, priest, deacon, church or overseer, elder, servant/minister, assembly?

While both choices can in some sense be substantiated in episkopos, presbyteros, diakonos, ekklesia, the latter ones are deliberately overlooking the traditional meanings of the words in order to presume to dig up another one.

Luke Lefebvre
Now if you're going to make translations of the Bible into Chinese for example it'll be a whole lot easier to do it from that English translation. Because even if you make translation errors you can always go back to the creek text to correct them. But if you're using the wrong group text like many modern versions do y'all have boatloads of missing versus now why is that? Why are all the verses of many modern translations found in the footnotes?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
And perhaps your edition of KJV even lacks the seven books which Catholics consider canonic and Protestants apocryphic?

That is what I meant.

An Englishman going as missionary to China will perhaps use KJV or NIV.

A Swede going as missionary to Tanzania will perhaps rather use Swedish Bibles.

"Why are all the verses of many modern translations found in the footnotes?"

Because Protestantism is a developing movement.

It started throwing out Maccabees I and II because their new research could not find that and now there are Protestant Bibles which only have Christ pardoning adulteress in footnotes because even newer research could not find that to their satisfaction.

Joseph D. Mc Bride
The Holy Bible is Perfect. Only perfect thing I know of!!!

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Joseph D. Mc Bride Only?

God is not perfect? The Church He founded is not perfect? Heaven is not perfect? We will not be perfect when we get there? The sacraments are not perfect?

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