On Mark 10:6

On Mark 10:6 · On Collective Infallibility of Church Fathers

Dave Bestul

6 mars, 22:53

Mark 10:6-12New International Version (NIV)

“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

Question: Does this confirm that Jesus taught a young earth? If Adam and Eve were created at the BEGINNING of creation, doesn't that pretty much kill the gap theory? Thanks.

Angels:

Rohn Timm

So according to the YEC, Satan and all of the angels were created sometime during the first week and Satan and 1/3 of the angels quickly rebelled against God.

I can't imagine what happened so quickly to cause an insurrection on such a grand scale?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What happened so quickly?

Angels needed only one moment to decide.

Satan needed only one moment to rebel, St Michael only one moment to remain loyal.

Caleb Trevithick

No, not according to YEC, Rohn. The creation of the physical universe does not include the domain of things that are not material.

Rohn Timm

A new twist...half YEC and half OEC.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The traditional reading of verse 1 includes creation of all invisible creatures, angels, in creation of "heaven".

If Satan fell one moment after his creation, he fell before day 1, counting it from when it was light.

Rohn Timm

The traditional reading as interpreted by the Traditions of men suggest...

Hans Georg Lundahl

Tell me when you have done your checking ...

Rohn Timm

The early Church fathers apparently were unfamiliar with the KJ that refutes the YEC.

Scriptures in the KJ found in Gen 1:28 and 9:1 clearly support the Gap Theory of "replenishing the Earth."

Of course, many reject the KJ which is a rebuttal of the YEC traditions of men.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

KJ is not the Bible.

KJ is a translation of the Bible.

And adhering to it is a tradition of men.

Rohn Timm

So you reject the KJ Bible which is held as the Gold standard to the Protestants.

I'll take the Word of God over the YEC presupposition-based ideas.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"So you reject the KJ Bible which is held as the Gold standard to the Protestants. "

Of English speaking Protestants.

I did not reject it as a good English lesson when I was a Protestant.

I was a YEC and I became a Catholic.

Vulgate also has "replete", but Vulgate is not quite as much the sole gold standard to Catholics, since the Church also adhers to LXX.

Also, St Jerome was probably either using a popular form which had replaced Classic implete or trying to convey an intensive form in Hebrew (which I don't speak or write or read), where iterative is only one translation.

And not the best for the context.

[If given the full Classical sense, whereas St Jerome tried his best to translate in popular speech.]

"I'll take the Word of God over the YEC presupposition-based ideas."

You are taking one hasty choice of words in a translation.

Dinos

Rohn Timm

And you likely believe that the dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark and all of them have died off. You also reject the KJ verses Gen 1:26; 9:1 that refer to the replenishing of the Earth.

Dave Bestul

Are you positing that it is not possible that two dinosaurs of any age couldn't have been on an ark?

Rohn Timm

Do you realize how many different one there were and they somehow ALL died off?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

There are over 600 listed species or perhaps even genus, but they boil down to 55 kinds.

There were tons of sauropods, great chunks of Theropoda involving big ones like T rex and small ones like Velociraptor, and God knows how many types of pterosaurs. And so on.

And I don't believe ALL died off either. See Cryptozoology.

Dave Bestul, Noah would have needed 55 couples, not just one.

Dave Bestul

Rohn Timm, you're asserting that they couldn't have died off? Why? Animals go extinct all the time.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

And some, like Dimetrodon grandis, might have given people reasons to hunt them off:

Creation vs. Evolution : Did the Vikings See this Feller Alive?
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2016/11/did-vikings-see-this-feller-alive.html

Pre Adamites,

excursus angels

Rohn Timm

The FIRST HUMANS; not the first creatures on Earth.

Satan had already been created and fallen. What day does the YEC claim this happened?

Dave Bestul

You're implying pre-Adamites?

Rohn Timm

Yes, pre-Adamites.

So according to the YEC, Satan and all of the angels were created sometime during the first week and Satan and 1/3 of the angels quickly rebelled against God. I can't imagine what happened so quickly to cause an insurrection on such a grand scale?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What happened so quickly?

Angels needed only one moment to decide.

Satan needed only one moment to rebel, St Michael only one moment to remain loyal.

Response doubled

α & β

α

after I had written β below.

Robert Bennett

Time exists in heavenly realms?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Angelic beings don't live in God's successionless eternity, but in sempiternity and do have a succession.

God knows what to us is future, since to Him it is, precisely as the past, present.

The angels don't know what is to us future, unless God tells them, since to them it is also future.

β

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Outside previous, continuing last

There is a difference on when Satan fell.

Either way, even if it was just before day one, even if it was the cause of Earth being tohu ve bohu, the difference in time between absolute beginning and actual creation of Adam and Eve is insignificant.

Replenish, excursus to dinos

Rohn Timm

And you likely believe that the dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark and all of them have died off. You also reject the KJ verses Gen 1:26; 9:1 that refer to the replenishing of the Earth.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

DRBO has Gen 1:28

[28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.

Gen 9:1

[1] And God blessed Noe and his sons. And he said to them: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth.

Vulgate actually has the re- prefix.

Benedixitque illis Deus, et ait: Crescite et multiplicamini, et replete terram, et subjicite eam, et dominamini piscibus maris, et volatilibus caeli, et universis animantibus, quae moventur super terram.

Benedixitque Deus Noe et filiis ejus. Et dixit ad eos: Crescite, et multiplicamini, et replete terram.

KJV takes Vulgate replete as if Vulgate were written in Cicero's Latin.

In Cicero's Latin, re-plete would have meant re-plenish.

In St Jerome's adaptation to popular Latin, it was not so 450 years later.

"And you likely believe that the dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark"

Yes, Noah didn't have to take the big ones, he just needed to be careful to take a pink and a blue one.

"and all of them have died off."

No, I believe in Mokele Mbembe and in Thunderbirds.

Rohn Timm

I'm typing with a new tablet and hit the wrong key. I meant 1:28 and the KJ has "replenish" the Earth as 9:1 says to also replenish.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Yes, I found the verse 28. If it had been 26 in KJV, I would not have been surprised. Verses are recent and how they are divided differs.

I know both places say replenish, and I told you the KJV translators were too close to Vulgate "replete".

Because they thought St Jerome was using the words in the full Classical sense.

LXX

Genesis 1

28 καὶ ηὐλόγησεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς λέγων Αὐξάνεσθε καὶ πληθύνεσθε καὶ πληρώσατε τὴν γῆν καὶ κατακυριεύσατε αὐτῆς καὶ ἄρχετε τῶν ἰχθύων τῆς θαλάσσης καὶ τῶν πετεινῶν τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ πάντων τῶν κτηνῶν καὶ πάσης τῆς γῆς καὶ πάντων τῶν ἑρπετῶν τῶν ἑρπόντων ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς.

πληρώσατε - no prefix of iteration

Genesis 9

1 Καὶ ηὐλόγησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν Νωε καὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς αὐτοῦ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Αὐξάνεσθε καὶ πληθύνεσθε καὶ πληρώσατε τὴν γῆν καὶ κατακυριεύσατε αὐτῆς.

Same word πληρώσατε.