More on Biblical Inerrance - Featuring Apocalypse

1) Debating with Antonio Antranik on Aether · 1b) Appendix on Aether · 2) With Antonio Antranik on Scope of Biblical Inerrance and Patristic Collective Infallibility · 3) More on Biblical Inerrance - Featuring Apocalypse

Heath Wilson

Papal Condemnation may not be its official title, but it was by the command of the pope, it therefore carries the weight of his office. It is therefore a matter of faith and a part of the ordinary Magisterium. We are bound by it under pain of sin.

"by command of His Holiness and of the Most Eminent Lords Cardinals of this supreme and universal Inquisition, the two propositions of the stability of the Sun and the motion of the Earth were by the theological Qualifiers qualified as follows: The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture. The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith. "

I've personally wondered if the Woman Clothed with the Sun could also be the Church herself, who was shamed by the Galileo affair (and therefore metaphorically naked), and and if Her being "clothed by the Sun" could mean the Church being vindicated by science proving beyond all shadow of a doubt that the Earth IS motionless in the center and the Sun revolves around it. That is simply my private interpretation though.

"and anyone claiming that natural science is a part of FAITH is exceeding their authority."

Since the matter is one of how to interpret the Scriptures (and Scripture's inerrancy), arguing with the pope and the Inquisition about it isn't a very safe bet. The Church has SOLE authority is how Scripture is to be interpreted. Arguing against Her interpretation is heresy.

Antonio Antranik

Totally false. It was a matter of GOVERNMENT that was justified on the phony pretext of Faith.

Stefan Schwarz

Antonio Antranik do you believe the Church is infallible? Do you believe that Scripture as interpreted by the Church is inerrant?

Antonio Antranik

The Church is infallible ONLY in matters of FAITH and MORALS, as defined by the Vatican Ecumenical Council.

Heath Wilson

" It was a matter of GOVERNMENT that was justified on the phony pretext of Faith."

That directly contradicts the text of the above magisterial document. The Magisterium has determined that the Scripture insists that the immobility of the Earth is a matter of FAITH. You have no grounds to reject that teaching.

I also wanted to add that concerning the fantastical creatures such as a horse with a lions head, just give them a few years. They will exist.

Genome Editing with CRISPR-Cas9
McGovern Institute for Brain Research at MIT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pp17E4E-O8

Stefan Schwarz

From the 1st Vatican Council:

"If anyone does not receive as sacred and canonical the complete books of sacred scripture with all their parts, as the holy council of Trent listed them, or denies that they were divinely inspired : let him be anathema."

Does this mean that God inspired error? That would be blasphemy.

Antonio Antranik

The earth has no power source or rocket engines to change its course, but it can be moved by outside powers. To say that the earth is immobile would mean that even God Himself cannot move it. But God can do anything. Thus to say that the earth is immobile is HERESY.

Stefan Schwarz

Huh? God can make the earth mobile or immobile. He has revealed to us that it is immobile. It has nothing to do with God's power, it is about what God has revealed about what He has already done.

Heath Wilson

Science backs up our claim, too. Try to find a single scientific experiment that proves that the earth moves.

I would like to clarify that immobile does not mean that the Earth does not shake. Earthquakes don't count. It means that it does not move from it's place.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Antonio Antranik It would seem the Vatican Council defined the Church as being infallible in the matter of Faith and Morals.

It would not seem the Church also stated the word "only" on the occasion.

Your exegesis is an excuse for Luther's when saying his translation was right because St Paul obviously MEANT that Abraham was justified ONLY by faith.

Antonio Antranik "It was a matter of GOVERNMENT that was justified on the phony pretext of Faith."

Under the phony pretext?

OK, you believe Pope Urban VIII was that corrupt?

I don't, you see.

He gave a new monument to Saint Bibiana - patron saint of one of my sisters.

Also, he stepped out of the way and let Inquisitors decide without his presence, because he was personally concerned as insulted or suspected of being so by the character Simplicio in Galileo's dialogue.

Therefore, I am very much against your vile accusations against Pope Urban VIII.

Heath Wilson Apocalypse 9 speaks not of horses with lions' heads, but of locusts shaped like horses for war with lions' teeth.

I think this already exists, not as biology, but as technology : or may soon exist, if the exact model of chopper is another than those yet seen.

On another note, I was wondering if there was any beast associated with "the number of the beast".

In ASCII "the cat" and "the dog" are 665 and 667. What beast is then 666? Well, "the cog". It is technology, not biology, but serves as a beast of burden. It is also emblem of Rotarians, of which Bergoglio is a member, and in Swedish KGB can be pronounced (at least in Scanian dialect) so as to make the English phrase "cog gay bey" - a Bey as in non-Christian magistrate who is cog gay as in happier with cogs and cogwheels than with free people.

Putin and Kirill are "former" KGB. I am checking of COGGAYBEY does not add up to 666, I think it does.

Here is the check:

C 67 060 7
O 79 130 16
G 71 200 17
G 71 270 18
A 65 330 23
Y 89 410 32
B 66 470 38
E 69 530 47
Y 89 610 56

Yes, was right about that one.

Point with beast of Apocalypse 9, if beast of Apocalypse 13 can be "the cog", the beast species of Apocalypse 9 can also be technology, as in choppers.

"The earth has no power source or rocket engines to change its course,"

Or to put it in one if it is still.

"but it can be moved by outside powers."

As, for instance by God and angels - by God should He so chose, by angels if God allows.

Now, this would totally preclude saying "Earth is immobile" in the sense of preventing God from moving it, but it does not preclude saying the Earth is immobile by God's own decree.

"To say that the earth is immobile would mean that even God Himself cannot move it."

In the former, not the latter sense.

"But God can do anything. Thus to say that the earth is immobile is HERESY."

Not in the latter sense, as implying "by God's decree".

So - as to heresy - it is to say that God could not have created the Universe with Earth immobile - by His decree - in the Middle. Pope Urban's argument from back in his days of Cardinal Barberini, as well as Simplicio's was: God was free to create the Universe any way He wanted it, and God was also free to make it appear to us any way He wanted it.

One can gather from this that God was free to make it appear as he created it, or to make it appear the reverse of how He created it. But God is truthful and the universe appears to us as having the Earth as immobile centre. Therefore we should presume from His truthfulness, that that is also how He created it.

The last was of course back to Antonio Antranik.

What is the Greek about "shape"?

Nestlé Ahland text for NT GRaece Apocalypse 9:7 Καὶ τὰ ὁμοιώματα τῶν ἀκρίδων ὅμοια ἵπποις ἡτοιμασμένοις εἰς πόλεμον, καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς κεφαλὰς αὐτῶν ὡς στέφανοι ὅμοιοι χρυσῷ, καὶ τὰ πρόσωπα αὐτῶν ὡς πρόσωπα ἀνθρώπων,

It is "τὰ ὁμοιώματα". Anyone know Greek well enough to decide whether this can mean sth like function rather than geometric shape?