mardi 2 septembre 2014

New debate with Rick DeLano and Robert Sungenis

My status:
I think I have been here before ...

Rick DeLano
Welcome back Hans-Georg Lundahl.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I have a hunch on why I was added back ...

This passage on this blogpost was sent to our friend Sungenis (after already getting to Chuck Missler):

You know Sungenis' theory of what keeps the Earth in its place, centre of Universe?

ALL mass in the Universe rotates around one spot which becomes gravitational centre, in which God put Earth, from which it cannot escape.

Now, he accepts conventional distances and sizes. One problem is that even so - I think you may have made the point about gravitation earlier - the gravitational pull from stars might really be too small to make a difference.

Now, as of lately, I do not accept conventional distances and sizes. Supposing the 0.76 arcseconds of alpha Centauri are an angel dancing with it (as per fourth theory of Riccioli) or as it (as per his second, rejected one, which was however accepted by St Jerome), alpha Centauri could be as close as a light day away.

And so on for all the other stars.

Would this make Sungenis' solution for Earth staying in place more plausible?

Not quite sure. Perhaps rather not. Gravitation would increase by the square as distances reduced, but as apparent size is an empiric given fact, and it relates to distance, this would, as I seem to comprehend, mean that the volume of alpha Centauri (and with it gravitation) would be decreasing by the cube as distance shortened.

However, if Earth was instead kept in place electrically? That or simple decree of God would be solutions.

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Chuck Missler starts making sense on an electrical issue

Rick DeLano
There is absolutely no basis upon which to accept any claim that "the gravitational pull from stars might really be too small to make a difference", since the stars make up far less than 5% of the mass required to explain observations even under conventional theories.

95.9% of the required mass to make gravity work under consensus cosmology assumptions is missing.

They have been looking for it for 70 years so far without success.

Maybe they will find it someday.

Until they do, they invent the difference and call it dark matter/energy.

We call it the firmament.

It is conclusively certain that the Theory of Relativity absolutely requires the physics to be perfectly consistent with a geocentric universe.

If anyone can show that to be wrong, they will have simultaneously falsified and collapsed all of physics.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Ah, that is another matter.

"Even under conventional theories." Here we might agree.

It is not that the stars per se are enough to explain the model of Sungenis, but that they are as insufficient to explain other models.

Chuck Missler seems to call that matter "plasma" and identify it with "waters above the firmament".

Rick DeLano
Missler does seem to be thinking along the same lines lately, and we of course wish him and his co-thinkers every success, since the present cosmological world view is on the verge of collapse, and will have to be replaced. The fact that we observe from one and precisely one place in the cosmos is a *metaphysical reality* which can no longer be ignored, in the aftermath of the collapse of the Copernican Principle. We shall have to re-do cosmology from a geocentric premise, and the smartest scientists are already beginning to see this:

Geocentric cosmology: a new look at the measure problem
Mahdiyar Noorbala, Vitaly Vanchurin
(Submitted on 21 Jun 2010 (v1), last revised 20 Jan 2011 (this version, v2))


"In the emerging picture an infinite multi- verse is replaced with a finite geocentric region, and the search for the correct measure is replaced by a search for a 3D Lagrangian yet to be discovered.

There are two ways to look for the correct Lagrangian. One could either try to perform direct phenomenological searches or one could try to derive it from first principles. For the phenomenological approach one has to reinter- pret the existing cosmological data from the geocentric view point."

Hans-Georg Lundahl
If either Robert Sungenis' model or the standard one requires masses not found, what about returning to angelic model for stellar movements?

I will post link on a separate thread.

Robert Sungenis
Hans, the gravity model that I (and Dr. Bouw) are using does not have any "missing matter." The gravitational tension of the universe's sphere of stars, whatever its strength due to the distance of the stars from Earth, is going to be neutral at the center of mass. So we can have a large universe or a small one. It makes no difference to geocentrism.

Although the idea that angels moved the heavenly bodies was discussed in and out of the patristic and medieval eras, there was no consensus among either group that it was a reality. In fact, in De Potentia 6, 3, Aquinas quotes Augustine from De Trinitatae 2, 10, saying: “How angels do these things, or rather how God does them through his angels, my sight is not keen enough to see, my reason too diffident to unravel, my mind too slow to grasp; nor can I answer with assurance all the queries that could be made on this matter…” Aquinas himself makes no firm conclusion, but only says: “Although an angel may cause the movement of the heavens…” (“Ad quintum dicendum, quod Angelus etsi caelum moveat.” In reality, the whole purpose of De Potentia 6, 3 was to refute the ideas that angels could perform miracles at will without limitation. In other sections of De Potentia, Aquinas shows us his understanding of movement by natural causes: “Although the local movements of the lower bodies as well as other movements are brought about by certain fixed natural causes…” (“Ad undecimum dicendum, quod licet motus locales inferiorum corporum sint a determinatis motoribus naturalibus…,” De potentia, q. 6 a. 3 ad 11). As for Scripture, there exists no passage which states that angels move the heavenly bodies. The most that could be gleaned from Scripture is that angels can exercise extraordinary powers in the temporal realm. Secondly, the patristic and medieval eras give testimony of an absolute consensus to the doctrine of a fixed Earth and a moving sun, whereas no such consensus exists regarding angelic forces moving celestial bodies. Thirdly, geocentrism was confirmed by the magisteriums under several pontiffs, pontiffs that guided and approved the process of condemning Copernicanism from start to finish, whereas an angelic impetus for the heavenly bodies did not even come up for discussion within magisterial ranks.

[Editorial Note: lower bodies. Celestial bodies are higher. In fact, it seems St Thomas considered the movements of celestial bodies as physical causes of those of lower bodies, far beyond what modern physics does and well into what would now qualify as astrology - though excepting of course the free will of man and the providence of God. That moon moves ebb and flood, we admit now too, most of us. That Sun moves day and night, Summer and Winter, also. But he seems to consider Mars makes iron grow in mines and makes some of it magnetic, unless he considered the magnetic part as arising when Venus was in conjunction with Mars.]

[Editorial note II: in another paper Sungenis would include aether in the mass. I would not, since I consider aether is lightness rather than heaviness, levity rather than gravity, anti-mass or peri-mass rather than mass.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
As to Scripture, the passages would rather suggest that stars ARE a kind of angels. Not meaning the passages do not exist.

The first milennium is more like St Jerome into thinking stars are living beings of angel like nature. The second millennium saw a condemnation of it in Paris, where the "angels move stars as immediate EXTRINSIC cause" took on as the majority view.

EITHER of the two views means there is some liberty of movement as compared to merely physical constraints - though none to disobey God - which is enough to dispense with the merely mechanistic explanations.

"The gravitational tension of the universe's sphere of stars whatever its strength due to the distance of the stars from Earth, is going to be neutral at the center of mass. So we can have a large universe or a small one. It makes no difference to geocentrism"

Even if tension of Sun mould be superior to all the rest?

That would be the moot point.

Rick DeLano
If it could be established established by direct experiment that the Sun is superior in its gravitation effect to the combined gravitation of the rest of the universe, one would have disproven General Relativity.

[Editorial Note: After this sth happened to his comments. After I had answered, before I could copy. As will become apparent later, the superiority would be local only in a huge universe, but still decisive perhaps, or absolute, in a small universe. If say fixed stars are in twice or three times or sth the distance of Pluto.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
De Potentia would be speaking of angels moving HEAVEN (caelum), not moving heavenly bodies.

St Thomas has amply documented he thought God himself moved Heaven, and angels supplied minor movements that unlike this first one were not daily circles.

E g God moves Heaven full circle every 23 h 56 minutes AND angel of Sun moves backward along the Zodiak so that solar day is 24 h and its period along Zodiak one year. In St Jerome's thought it might rather have been celestial bodies animated by a kind of souls that did so. But the quote from St Augustine shows he agreed with St Thomas rather than with St Jerome. His diffidence is not IF but HOW according to your own quote.

Quoting De Potentia:

"Accordingly the corporeal nature obeys the bidding of the spiritual in the point of its natural relation to local movement, but not as regards the reception of a form"

In other words, an angel can move the sun, no problem, but cannot make it shine or not shine.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
As to the distinction between metaphysical and scientific propositions proposed by Rick DeLano, that seems somewhat irrational. Metaphysics is a science and so is physics. However, my point was that physically the movement of the Sun backward East along the Zodiak had as cause the potence of an angel, just as its movement West WITH heaven had as its cause the direct action of God on the outrmost primum mobile.

How a certain movement could have as its cause one thing metaphysically and not have it physically is totally unclear.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Wrong. Angels are NOT a privilege of revealed philosophy a k a theology.

They are equally (under other words) conclusions of say Aristotle or Avicenna, precisely in the domain of movements of celestial bodies.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I can say that the question what immediately moves a star or a planet is a physical question, and if so, supposing an angel does it, the angels action is the physical cause and the physical answer to the question.

I can also say that it is a metaphysical question, and if so, the other answer "heavenly bodies are immediately moved by gravitation and inertia, or perhaps also electricity to exclusion of spiritual agents" as as metaphysical an answer as "heavenly bodies are immediately moved by angels".

[As metaphysical, but not as right in metaphysics, that is.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
What I cannot do is to say that the question is physical if the answer is the one and metaphysical if the answer is the other. Still less, have one answer for each discipline.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
If it is true of history that the movements of my pen on the paper depend on my fingers rather than on gravity (ink flowing would depend on gravity, but that does not say where it will flow), then very obviously it cannot be true in physics that gravity rather than my fingers direct the pen.

If angels are moving stars and planets, there can be two attitudes only:

  • angels can be questioned rationally as to what they can and cannot do and what they must be to do what they can do (for instance move the stars);


  • the question of what moves planets and stars is not a rational question.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I very definitely refuse to have a rational inquiry tied down to an answer which may be wrong because the one which may be right is for formalistic reasons painted out as lying outside the domain of the inquiry.

And I very clearly have St Thomas on my side, since I read the beginning of De Potentia up to where Robert Sungenis cherry picked a quote. St Thomas clearly does say angels are what God uses to direct bodies.

Let us take objection 7 and its answer:

7. According to Augustine (De Trin. iii, 4) all bodies are governed by God through the rational spirit of life; and Gregory says the same (Dial. iv.: so that seemingly the movements of the heavens and of all nature are controlled by the angels even as the movements of the human body are controlled by the soul. Now the soul produces forms in the body independently of the natural active forces of the body: thus a mere fancy makes a man grow hot or cold, or become feverish or even leprous according to physicians. A fortiori then it is possible that by the mere concept of the angel who moves the heavens certain effects be produced in this lower world without the action of natural causes: and thus an angel can work a miracle. ... Reply to the Seventh Objection. In the natural order the soul by its bidding moves the body locally: because its appetitive power commands the movement, and the body obeys its bidding, and this is effected by the motive powers affixed to the organs and derived by the body from the soul which informs the body. Other alterations such as heat, cold and the like derive from the soul by means of local movement. It is also evident that imagination gives rise to a passion whereby in some way the movements of the heart and spirits are affected: and that when the latter are drawn towards the heart or diffused throughout the members the body is likewise affected: and this may lead to disease especially if the matter be so disposed.

So, the principle of Sts Augustine and Gregory remains in full vigour. The parallel certainly suggests that angels have powers of local movement.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
No, it is not a completely legitimate job for physics to pursue a question while shutting out potentially right answers. As to them having done a reasonably good job, let me recall you to the fact that most of the job you here called good has been conducted by Heliocentrics.

If the right answer is God to a question, either physics must have a right to say at some point "goddidit" or "goddoesit" or physics must leave the question alone. If the right answer to a question is angels, either physics must have a right to say at some point "angelsdoit" or physics must leave the question alone.

NOTE that "natural philosophy" and "physics" are not coextensive. Traditionally physics has been considered as limited to a sublunary sphere.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
What moves planets and stars cannot ever be within the OPERATIONAL domain of human inquiry. We are not big and mighty enough to conduct experiments on them.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Physics "being itself" does not amount to angels being kept out of the question why the stars and planets move. Rather that would be physics bloated beyond recognition into a mosntruous pseudojudge of the real judges of physics.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
It is very much so limited under the operation of precisely right reason, because precisely right reason precisely has the faculty to recognise that water boiling in kettles, it can experiment on, planets and stars moving it cannot experiment on.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You are acting as a fundie, of "natural sciences". Even when they contradict the truth, and on some matters even on matters directly revealed.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
As to your appeal to the "teaching of the Church", I am no more out on my own than you are after 1820.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Optical evidence of where the bodies move are perfectly legitimate and I am not disputing it. THAT is distinct from speculation on what makes them move. That is the whole point.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
And stop, will you, being so overbearing as to say things like "we have been through this before" I was right then and am right now.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Physics as such has no duty to account for those motions. Precisely as physics like physics has no duty to account for what patterns my pen may make on a paper.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
No, physics can not account for what patterns I choose to write on a paper.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You have already become so. [Disagreeable.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Supposing that were sincere, it would be an apology for browbeating about what you feel are limits and scopes of physics, as if it were self evident. Supposing that were sincere, it would be renouncing for the future tones like "now now" and so on. IS it all that sincere?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You said you quit school after it ceased being compulsory? Oh no. You have done quite a bit of adaptation to a rotten culture since then, you sound like a politician.

[Actually, I must admit, it was Dave Armstrong who said so about Rick DeLano's educational background.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I took that literally. I am sorry I was too tired to recall why I disliked your company when I added you again.

[Here I unfriended Rick DeLano again.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Now, Robert Sungenis, you want to give precisely a physical explanation to Earth staying in centre.

It being placed in exact centre of gravity. Speaking of gravity, btw, the translation of de potentia has a problem. Jordan was stopped while retaining its HEAVINESS, St Thomas was not speaking fo Newtonian "power of gravitation". But say Newton is right, say there are centres of gravity ... many things DOWN ON EARTH (recall the lunar sphere limit) look as if that were true. However, these are not equally forceful for whatever total mass there is, but less and less so, the more the total mass is dispersed.

That being so, if Universe includes giants very much larger than the Sun, that does not mean centre of gravity of all such things would locally be stronger than gravity of the Sun - since the immense distances play in. If on the other hand the universe is very much smaller, then the centre of gravity would perhaps be the Sun itself - insofar as that is relevant. At least it would be very probable that the stars considered as giants bigger than the sun are in fact smaller than Pluto, if as close as I think.

Either way, gravitation seems not quite the right thing to account for a Geocentric universe.

What about:

  • a moving universe has God for a mover
  • smaller moving objects have smaller movers
  • Earth has no mover and so does not move ...

begins to sound like a deal?

[It seems Robert Sungenis also commented on this thread. Then something happened to this last comment of his. Before I could even see it.]

Link to De Potentia, Latin and English parallel, relevant passage in context.
ON THE POWER OF GOD by Thomas Aquinas
translated by the English Dominican Fathers
Westminster, Maryland: The Newman Press, 1952, reprint of 1932
Html edition by Joseph Kenny, O.P.


Can Spiritual Creatures Work Miracles by Their Natural Power?

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