Två undertrådar under status af en Martinist

Creationism och stafning · Två undertrådar under status af en Martinist

DL och DP hade påstått att jag missuppfattat Martinus, men när jag collade, hade jag fattat det rätt.

De voro till slut mer intresserade af min språkform än af mina argumenter.

I

HGL

En stilla undran : är det många nordbor som fallit för Martinus?

DL

Skulle tro att det ligger på några tusen sammanlagt, men Martinus verk är rätt okänt egentligen, eftersom det inte är handlar om en sekt eller församling som försöker värva medlemmar, och man lägger inte några större resurser på att informera om det, utöver vad enstaka entusiaster gör, det är i princip bara ett verk fritt att studera för dem som finner det intressant. Jag är personligen helt klart en entusiast, och har varit det sedan jag öppnade böckerna för 20 år sedan, och kommer vara det tills jag lämnar detta jordeliv. Om människor visste vilken skatt som finns i de där böckerna skulle de inte tveka en sekund att lusläsa dem. Den dagen kommer, det är jag övertygad om, när folk ska upptäcka detta, och då kommer det nog ske en global revolution på många områden, inte minst vad gäller hur vi utformar våra samhällen.

HGL

Jo "tack", jag såg en viss brochure en gg, det verkade som om han hade ngn slags communistisk syn på huru yrkesval skulle gå till.

Ngt slags committeer skulle visst besluta om hvars och ens yrkesval eller dylikt, icke denne sjelf ...

DL

Han har skrivit om en ny samhällsmodell ja, men inte så detaljerat, mer på principnivå, det hör framtiden till.

HGL

Jag vill intet ha den typen af framtid, tack!

DL

Det handlar bara om att värna allas rätt till ett gott liv, i samhället lokalt som globalt, och lämna det hierarkiska och där några på toppen berikar sig på andras arbete, monopoliserar på naturens resurser eller roffar åt sig av rikedomar genom makt och list. Är det någon som är emot ett sådant rättvist och kärleksfullt samhälle i grunden? Möjligtvis bara dem på toppen...

HGL

Eller de som skulle vilja ha andra yrken än de de utnämnts till ...

DL

Det funkar inte så, läs på innan du uttalar dig är du snäll. Det handlar om att var och en hamnar på rätt plats, efter lust och kompetens.

HGL

"lust och"

Det var intet hvad jag läste i den brochuren ... competence, jo, det verkar stämma med hvad jag mins.

Sedan kan jag ha sett en sak och missat resten.

DL

Lätt hänt :) (y)

HGL

Se dock mitt svar till DP.

DP

Hans-Georg, det är helt klart en missuppfattning att Martinus skulle ha menat att vi i det framtida globala kärleksrike han förebådar, skulle bli "tilldelade" något verksamhetsområde vi inte själv väljer! Tvärtom mot nu kommer alla att bidra med just det som de brinner för att göra!

HGL

Å andra sidan, att ngn hamnar der han intet valt blir kanske bittrare om en committée bestämmer.

Och att alla skulle brinna för sin uppgift är en utopie, gator behöfva sopas i framtiden med, fram till Harmageddon eller nära på.

DP

Som sagts, läs hans texter själv innan du drar slutsatser!

HGL

Ngn passage du recommenderar?

DP

De flesta av hans texter finns tillgängliga på nätet på ett flertal språk! Googla på Martinus.dk!

DL

Här är innehållsförteckningen i Livets Bog:

http://www.martinus.dk/sv/tt/index.php?bog=LBindhold
Livets Bog, innehållsförteckning
Läs och sök i Martinus: Tredje testamentet.

[Référence gifven, länkar ej]

DL

Kapitel 4 handlar om de politiska principerna.

HGL

Dankeschön.

HGL

"107. Men tack vare de senare århundradenas utveckling har kontrasten mellan över- och underklass minskats betydligt, och vi upplever alltså att det inom överklassen förekommer allt fler individer som är ädla och flitiga och verksamma för hela samhällets väl, liksom också att det efter hand i någon mån har uppstått bättre arbetsvillkor och friare förhållanden för underklassen än förr. ..."

Huru var det nu med hans historiekunskaper?

"Men härigenom kommer ju samma överhet ytterligare att dokumentera, att endast jordmänniskosamhället kan vara "arbetsgivare", medan den enskilde individen endast kan vara "arbetare". I den fullkomliga världsstaten kan således inget väsen komma till världen för att låta sig betjänas, utan endast för att tjäna."

Jahadu ...

Och fritid skall egnas åt, förmodligen obligatoriska studiedagar ... och machiner bidraga till mer fritid ... jahadu ...

"Varje arbetsför individ blir därför skyldig att prestera sin del av det arbete, som enligt vetenskaplig uträkning är nödvändigt för att han själv och den övriga delen av jordmänniskosamhället, med dess till arbete oförmögna individer, skall få en existens av ovannämnda slag. Detta lagpliktiga arbete kommer på intet vis att få en framtoning av slavgöra eller tvång, eftersom världsstatens högstående moraliska och vetenskapliga administration garanterar varje individ hans arbete inom det fack eller på det område där han just har sitt intresse, sin största begåvning och bäst utvecklade anlag. Födda konstnärer kommer därför att arbeta i konstens tjänst. Vetenskapligt lagda individer kommer att arbeta inom vetenskap (och hit hör såväl andlig som materiell vetenskap). Begåvningar inom hantverk och industriell verksamhet kommer att medarbeta inom dessa särskilda grenar osv. Och på så sätt kommer alltså varje individ att befinna sig på sin, genom egen upplevelse och utprovning, "rätta plats" och kan då känna glädje i sitt arbete. Det ligger ju helt i världsstatens intresse att göra arbetet till en stimulans, underhållning och välsignelse för den enskilde individen - och inte till ett "nödvändigt ont", som fallet är i vår tid, när miljoner människor över hela jorden endast kan uppfatta sitt arbete på detta sätt, just därigenom att till arbetet för den egna existensen också knyter sig vidmakthållandet av en överflöds- och gratistillvaro för en stab av kapitalistiska makthavare, varigenom arbetet blir liktydigt med träldom eller framtonar som slaveri."

Detta var nu 111.

Det är en vetenskaplig uträkning hvilken del ngn har af arbetet, och dermed hvilket arbete han har mest lust och fallenhet för ... jag tror jag fattade rätt i alla fall.

Ifall det är öfverskott af candidater för sångcarrièrer säger det sig sjelft att intet alla bli sångare som ha lust till det. Dermed brukar det vara individuella val att försöka och individuella lyckanden eller misslyckanden eller sidspår som afgör. Martinus vill göra det till verldsadministrationens vetenskapliga studium, och påståendet att det ligger "i dennas intresse" att ge enhvar det arbete som bäst stimulerar honom är lika öfvertygande som att det låg i slafegarens intresse att behandla sina slafvar väl. Till viss grad, ja, men sexuelt utnyttjande, mobbande m m förekom likväl.

Nu kunde slafveriet i Sydstaterna afskaffas genom Lincolns seger, men hvem skall befria menniskorna ur Martinus' verldsstat?

II

DL

För dem som vill fördjupa sig i Martinus perspektiv på Evolutionen och intelligent design, kan jag rekommendera denna bok av biologen Ole Therkelsen:

"Martinus utvecklingslära har i stort sett inte beaktats under de senaste årens skapelsedebatt. Den erbjuder en intressant och perspektivrik infallsvinkel och underbygger både darwinismens och intelligent designteorins position och berättigande. Martinus argumenterar för en evolution som är baserad på de levande väsendenas eget medvetande och erfarenhetsskapande, och han ger en inblick i människans framtida utveckling mot fullkomlighet.

Boken belyser en lång rad frågor om MARTINUS, DARWIN OCH INTELLIGENT DESIGN och vänder sig till alla som intresserar sig för utveckling, oavsett om det är utifrån en naturvetenskaplig, andlig eller religiös synvinkel. Boken kan också läsas som en introduktion till Martinus kosmologi."

http://www.varldsbild.se/Product.aspx?ProdNo=75935

HGL

Han trodde således intet på Skapelsen i biblisk mening?

DL

Han insåg som alla intellektuella nog gör, att bibelns berättelser ofta är symboliska. Det gär dem dock inte nödvändigtvis mindre sanna, tvärt om, mer realistiska.

HGL

Enligt catholska kyrkofäder är skapelseberättelsen i vissa drag symbolisk om Långfredagen.

Detta innebär intet att de skulle vara symboliska snarare än factiska ang. sjelfva Skapelsen.

DL

Skriver du alltid på fornsvenska? :)

HGL

Nej, jag behärskar icke det fölgande språket:

Svea'r egho konong at taka ok sva vra'ka'· han skal ma'þ gislum ovan fara ok i o'stra'go'tland · þa skal han sa'ndi ma'n hinga't til aldrago'ta þings · þa skal laghmaþa'r gisla' skipta'

Eller menade du att stafva som före 1870? Jo, jag bojkottar tre stafnings och böjningsreformer. 1870-talets, 1906, 1950.

DL

[missade jag en smiley eller hvad?]

Creationism och stafning

Creationism och stafning · Två undertrådar under status af en Martinist

CB

Att evolutionen ägt rum är i så hög grad styrkt av vetenskapen så att, om man betvivlar det så finns det knappast något annat som man inte också borde betvivla.

Ändå är man så fixerad av att just ifrågasätta evolutionen.

Varför just evolutionen och inte något annat vetenskapen har förklarat?

Varför tror man att närmast 100% av vetenskapsmän i en mängd berörda dicipliner är eniga om att det varit en evolution av livet på jorden?

Tror man att de är med i en konspiration? I vilket syfte? Ledd av vilka?

HGL

CB "Varför just evolutionen och inte något annat vetenskapen har förklarat?"

Förklara och bevisa förklaringens riktighet äro två olika ting.

Vid heliocentrism, astrofysik, afstånds-"mätningar" i universum, liksom vid miljoner och miljarder års evolution af olika slag från gemensamma förfäder fins det inget bra sätt att colla upp riktigheten practiskt.

I electronik kan man ju colla att machinerna funka, hvilket intet är helt relevant för alla theoretiska puncter, men i hvart fall ger antydningar om att t ex Ohms lag eller Coulombes lag är riktig.

"Varför tror man att närmast 100% av vetenskapsmän i en mängd berörda dicipliner"

Och hvarföre intet ta upp en lika rörande enighet bland vetenskapsmän i en mängd irrelevanta discipliner? Typ medicin, egyptologie, etc.

"är eniga om att det varit en evolution av livet på jorden?"

Jag tror du öfverdrifver enigheten, om jag fattar dig rätt om att "evolution af lifvet på jorden" innebär "ur en gemensam förfader".

"Tror man att de är med i en konspiration? I vilket syfte? Ledd av vilka?"

En cultur kan missleda sina adepter utan conspirationer.

Deremot finnas en del sådana inblandade, t ex en ganska ny sådan om att härleda creationisternas ståndpuncter ur just en conspirationstheorie.

Vi ha ganska mycket annat att gå på, syfted med just DEN conspirationen är att afleda uppmärksamheten från argumenten vi ha, och den är ledd en smula chaotiskt här och hvar som af menniskor som intet gilla att se sin evolutionstroende och heliocentrismtroende cultur framgångsrikt attackerad af argument.

"Att evolutionen ägt rum är i så hög grad styrkt av vetenskapen så att, om man betvivlar det så finns det knappast något annat som man inte också borde betvivla."

Grof Öfverdrift. Mycket grof.

SI

Får man fråga varför du skriver med de stavningarna du gör?

HGL

SI, ja, man kan till och med få ett svar om nra ögonblick ... voilà:
..
Om det är "gammelsvenska" jag skrifver?
http://danskantimodernism.blogspot.fr/2011/03/om-det-ar-gammelsvenska-jag-skrifver.html

SI

HGL Tack men nu var ju inte det svar på min fråga "varför?" ;)

HGL

"Sista ggn en stafningsreform fölgde en ändring i uttalet var den ggn, och det har jag intet bojkottat."

Indirect svar ... och nra flera med.

HGL

sednare

Ngn replik med anledning af det sagda?

SI

HGL Nope

HGL

SI Min stafning var altså intressantare än mina svar?

SI

HGL Inget var direkt intressant, mer nyfikenhet varför.

HGL

OK, nu kanske jag var intresserad af hvad andra hade att tycka om mina svar till CB ... inclusive han sjelf.

CB eller SI hade fölgande på vännerlistan.



Notera nedre venstra hörnet. OK ... jag har varit i fängelse, men kom ut 2000. Psychiatrien hade med den saken att göra. Saken är den att med den typen af bekanta och den prioriteringen af nyfikenheter började jag undra om rättspsyk vore intresserad af mig än i dag ... i öfrigt äro de nunorna för min del ovidkommande för ofvanstående.

William Paul Lazarus reacted to part 1

The Gospel Truth, by William P. Lazarus : part 1 · part 2 · part 3
William Paul Lazarus reacted to: part 1 of above · [Meme on Eucharist, so] Willam P. Lazarus Pretended the Eucharist was known in BC times · Same William P. Lazarus on "Any Competent Researcher"

Hans-Georg Lundahl

to [William Paul Lazarus]

Hello, book arrived, hope dog is better and house drier now!

Chapter 1 was read, here is therefore part 1 of my review:

[link to my article]

[William Paul Lazarus]

You don't have to read any further. You obviously have done no research in religious history. I certainly don't want to challenge your beliefs or your imagination. By the way, just so you'll feel better, I know fully well when Paul may have died. However, since his death was never recorded historically, conjecture regarding the date and place has extended from Spain to Rome. But don't let actual facts get in your way.

N. O.

Friend of [William Paul Lazarus]

Oh, you are the master with words. Love everything you have written.

[William Paul Lazarus]

Thank you. It's very hard trying to explain anything to people with closed minds. Hans, for example, believes Matthew wrote the book with his name on it. He is wrong. The texts were all anonymous and assigned names in the next century. Then he claims Matthew was a scribe, a "fact" unknown in any source material. Extensive research on Christian history has been conducted by reputable scholars for centuries. The information is documented and recognized as accurate. Unfortunately, not everyone is happy with the results, so they come up with conjectures as if that replaces facts. I wrote the book to provide interested readers with the latest research. Those who prefer to ignore scholarship probably shouldn't read it.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"You don't have to read any further."

I intend to. Part 1 means parts are upcoming. Your money shall not be wasted.

"You obviously have done no research in religious history."

I am challenging you to provide some references.

"I certainly don't want to challenge your beliefs or your imagination."

Don't worry.

"By the way, just so you'll feel better, I know fully well when Paul may have died."

If you wrote anything about it and against the traditional view, he died 64, I missed it.

I also don't think I wrote any line to which this is a very adequate reply.

If I am wrong, copy it from my essay.

"However, since his death was never recorded historically,"

That is a rich one. A record in the martyrology is not a historic record to you on what exact ground?

"conjecture regarding the date and place has extended from Spain to Rome. But don't let actual facts get in your way."

Yes, you said "conjecture". You are very dandily placing such on each item, or quasi, in the place of traditional accounts of the facts - even when we have no alternative accounts from non-Christians at the time, which hence did not become Christian tradition.

"It's very hard trying to explain anything to people with closed minds."

It is very easy to delude people with so open minds there is nothing in it.

"Hans, for example, believes Matthew wrote the book with his name on it."

Yes, along with exactly EVERY early source we have on the topic.

"He is wrong."

Because William Paul Lazarus says so, or do you have an argument?

"The texts were all anonymous and assigned names in the next century."

Because William Paul Lazarus says so, or do you have an argument?

"Then he claims Matthew was a scribe, a "fact" unknown in any source material."

Except his Gospel and the fact he is traditionally identified as tax collector Levi?

"Extensive research on Christian history has been conducted by reputable scholars for centuries."

Reputable to whom?

"The information is documented and recognized as accurate."

That is rather what I claim for the traditional Catholic account.

As to "recognised", obviously not by all, not by the group to which certain scholars seem reputable.

"Unfortunately, not everyone is happy with the results, so they come up with conjectures as if that replaces facts."

This is unfortunately the exact reverse of the facts of the case. The Catholic Church recorded its early as well as later history. Some are for diverse reasons not happy with it, first Protestants who dislike very early references to Holy Mass or Veneration of Saints (which you find in Martyrdom of St Polycarp and in St Ignatius of Antioch), then Prussians (the idea of Markan priority came during the so called Kulturkampf).

"I wrote the book to provide interested readers with the latest research."

Except the references to the facts as per source material are lacking. For instance, "16 Church Fathers" and you don't name one of them.

"Those who prefer to ignore scholarship probably shouldn't read it."

Because William Paul Lazarus says so, or do you have an argument?

For my part, I don't prefer to ignore your admired scholars, but to refute them.

Oh, by the way, why is N. O. told what I wrote, as if she could not look up my online article herself?

On Wein, Weib and more debate than Gesang

MOS

status

If your pastor says it's ok to drink, find a new church

Do you agree?

Skipping

some ...

HGL said

If your pastor says it's not ok to drink in moderation - find an old Church.

Skipping

some ...

BL said

What’s the line between sober (which we are told to be), and intoxicated (which we are told not to be)?

Why gamble?

HGL said

If you are an adult and you drink one glass of wine slowly (you have a glass of water too, so you don't need to haste the wine for thirst) at a meal, you will be sober.

THAT quantity is not a gamble.

EEC said

Bible didn't point anyway or didn't sayed we should not drink but did't be a drunkness Paul say to Timothy .Stop drinking only water and use a little wine 4 his stomach anhis frequent illness

SM said

Having a drink is not having 3 or 4. Everyone has their limit, mine is 1 to 2 so I have 1 when I do. It’s not rocket science.

BL said

starting a subthread

I’ve taken a lot of classes on this, intoxication begins at first sip. Why do it if we are commanded to stay sober and vigilant, for Satan seeks to destroy us

JG said

I disagree with your logic.

HGL said

"intoxication begins at first sip."

You have taken classes by heretics who consider initial euphoria as "intoxication".

It is like considering the effect of coffee as "caffeine intoxication".

BL said

HGL said

Lol both of you... 🤗

The classes were biology classes and classes to be certified to serve alcohol when I was s server long time ago. ... not bible classes on intoxicating start times.
“Heretics” .... LOLOL

Caffeine is not commanded against silly

JG said

Nor is alcohol, silly.

HGL said

BLif you were a server, perhaps it was good to not drink, since otherwise these have access to much alcohol and situations in which using too much of it would be tempting.

BL said

JG
True, but too much is, yet too much caffeine isn’t the decay of society into sin and debauchery

BL said

HGL
No matter what your job, it’s wise not to drink at all

HGL said

"yet too much caffeine isn’t the decay of society into sin and debauchery"

Do you count Sabbath breaking and overworking employees as kosher?

"No matter what your job, it’s wise not to drink at all"

Until the job is done ...

BL said

HGL I’m not referring g to drinking on the job. Just drinking at all in life : which is obviously what I’m speaking about.

There is no command in the new covenant for sabbath keeping

HGL said

The ten commandments oblige.

Working in "non-necessary" works on Sundays is wrong.

Serving is "necessary," it gives other people among others a chance to eat on Sundays without the bother to cook, and I am not bothered to enumerate specifically all the issues on which Sunday work is allowed, but Sunday work in general is forbidden like it was on Saturdays in OT (though not as strictly).

JG said

I don't disagree, I'm against the idea of getting wasted and out of control, but to know your limit and be in control of your faculties is not sinful.

AM said

BL why would the Bible tell you to drink it if it were a sin? I was a server too we are taught the way we are in those classes to be able to recognize when people need to be cut off..resturants are extremely careful in this area because they don't want to be accountable if someone is driving drunk and they didn't cut them off earlier....server training is hardly a biology class....though the effects of alcohol start when you have your first glass not sip...you need to continue to drink for you to become drunk....you can't ignore the scriptures that permit drinking in moderation just because you have convictions with it...if you don't drink that is your prerogative but its not a sin for those who do as long as they aren't drinking to drunkenness...also being sober and vigilant is speaking not only in terms of physically sober but spiritually as well...1 Peter 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 The elders [ancients] which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

BL said

AM
Show me where I said it was a sin? I said it is better to not drink at all. Am I wrong? Also, I said I took classes, which does not lump them all in one group called ABC license to serve class. Speaking of, you must have been sleeping. Intoxication starts w first sip. You do t finish one drink before you feel the effects. Anyone who has ever had a drink can tell you that without biology classes.

HGL said

BL "Show me where I said it was a sin?"

You didn't, but you did ask about whether not drinking could be foolish.

"I said it is better to not drink at all."

Correct, as with not marrying - provided you stay chaste.

"Am I wrong?"

If you feel superior to those who do drink in moderation, you are.

"Also, I said I took classes, which does not lump them all in one group called ABC license to serve class."

I suggested you can have been taught by a heretic, the fact that it was in classes before becoming a server is no guarantee there was no Islam or 7 Day Adventism or Mormonism behind.

"Speaking of, you must have been sleeping. Intoxication starts w first sip. You do t finish one drink before you feel the effects. Anyone who has ever had a drink can tell you that without biology classes."

The problem is not whether you feel effects from the first sip.

The problem is whether that counts as "intoxication" and whether it counts as "getting drunk".

Now, as to "intoxication", you can as easily speak of "intoxication" of either sugar of caffeine.

As to "getting drunk," saying that is obviously against the Bible.

Christ made more wine when the guests were already tipsy. In other words, being tipsy is not against the commandments against drunkenness.

HGL said

AM "though the effects of alcohol start when you have your first glass not sip...you need to continue to drink for you to become drunk...."

Thank you very much. It seems BL was sleeping through this piece of your text.

Other subthreat

where first is in response to the one starting previous subthread. Or rather, second is, that is where the subthread starts.

JG said

I disagree, not backed by Scripture. Unless I miss read the miracle at the wedding at Cana. I agree with you if your pastor advocates getting wasted and intoxicated. That would be reason enough to look elsewhere. But not for what you stated. Can you agree with me on this?

BW said

I am a Pastor, I believe that drinking is okay but you CANNOT get drunk it says in the Bible do not be a drunkard!

BL said

Ok, forget right vs wrong, sin vs not sin.

Do you think drinking at all falls under the heading of wise or foolish?

Do you think that not drinking falls under the heading of wise or foolish?

HGL said

Both can fall under the heading of wise and both can fall under the heading of foolish.

BL said

HGL

explain?

HGL said

Not to drink to avoid getting drunk is wise.

Not to drink and think it will forever whatever your future circumstance save you from getting drunk is foolish.

Drink to enjoy a good taste and a great carbohydrate which also eases your possible constipation is wise.

Drink to when alcohol starts showing other traits than the euphoria common to carbohydrates is ... if done too much ... foolish.

TN said

What does being a pastor mean? We are all accountable to the Word whether a pastor says it or not!

BL said

HGL first one is not a choice. Drinking or not drinking. Not drinking but how much is ok?

You must not be able to imagine life without drinking. Sad for you. I used to be a raging everyday drinking alcoholic. It can be beat. Haven’t had a sip in 14 years.

There are so many health choices benefits that contain no alcohol.

I’d like to wait to hear this pastors answer.

HGL said

"You must not be able to imagine life without drinking."

I am not imagining mine without occasional treats like a beer to a meal ... my grandfather was a distiller.

I have not had to deal with alcoholism in my own person, and do not imagine paying for someone else's alcoholism.

I am perfectly capable not just to imagine but to live weeks without a drop.

(oh, not water or coffee)

(you know the saying "too much blood in my caffeine ...")

[Alert : "caffeineism" is a joke, a spoof on those who imagine I am an alcoholic. OK.]

BL said

HGL my stance is not to call a drink a sin, but to state that it’s better not to even have any. Don’t allow yourself to be convicted. I see no argument for my stance, unless one thought all abstinence from alcohol was wrong

HGL said

"not to call a drink a sin"

Fair enough

"it’s better not to even have any."

Under circumstances.

"I see no argument for my stance, unless one thought all abstinence from alcohol was wrong"

All abstinence is not wrong, but neither is all celibacy.

Some Catholic priests would be overzealous and basically tell people not to get married, you sound a bit like that.

It's better not to marry, Christ and St Paul said so, doesn't mean every celibate is wise or every married person foolish.

BL said

HGL
Is the topic marriage? Is all sex sin? No but we are not substituting words and topics. Topic is drinking, not all abstinence or no abstinence of anything under the sun

HGL said

Drink and sex are both things which man does best to abstain from and both are things which are nevertheless licit choices.

My point is, if a thing is always foolish because one is in general better off doing without it, then marriage also would be always foolish, which is false.

BL said

HGL
I agree with none of your logic. You compare things as if they are equal. Too much drinking in any situation is always wrong. In marriage, there is no too much sex that makes it sinful.

GS said

resp to TN

A pastor is another name for shepherd, elder,overseer or bishop. 1 Tim 3.1-7 &Titus 1.1-5 not given to much wine

HGL said

BL " In marriage, there is no too much sex that makes it sinful."

Yes, there is. The one where you take on a condom where you don't want a baby and don't want to abstain.

Sin against nature, sin of Onan, horrible thing.

GS said

So if you have a cat or dog do yo let them have puppies or kittens all the time

Sex is not purely for procreation, my wife is passed child bearing age.do we stop having sex?

BL said

HGL
https://youtu.be/QS9OwHoVnH4

Exposing Roman Catholicism (Former Catholic Priest Richard…

This seems to be the root of your bad logic

GS said

did Abram abstain from sarai because she was barren

TN said

Scripture doesn't say if he did

GS said

I'm just trying to point out that sexual relations between man and wife are not just for reproduction

HGL said

"So if you have a cat or dog do yo let them have puppies or kittens all the time"

Since they are not created in God's image, it is not a pure evil to sterilise them, but I would not, I'd try to find owners for puppies and kittens.

"Sex is not purely for procreation, my wife is passed child bearing age.do we stop having sex?"

According to St Ambrose, you normally should. However, it is not canonically required.

As long as you are open to life should God make a miracle, no problem.

"This seems to be the root of your bad logic"

Answering that man who fell off after Vatican II is a separate issue, here I deal with your arguments.

"did Abram abstain from sarai because she was barren"

It would seem they didn't, since they got no actual order like "don't be afraid to enter into her chamber".

On the other hand, it seems they did, since the prediction of a son would entail a promise of a miracle justifying sex as within the goal given to the first married couple in Genesis 1:28.

In other words, we don't know.

However, what is certain is, if they did have sex, they were not saying "ha, at last we won't have to worry about getting children, let's go for it".

Sara was regretting being childless. So was Elisabeth.

Two women were even praying in the temple because they were barren, the mothers of Samson and Samuel.

"I'm just trying to point out that sexual relations between man and wife are not just for reproduction"

"Not just for reproduction" does not mean they can be licitly twisted against reproduction. The goods of marriage are : 1) reproduction (Genesis 1:28); 2) mutual aid in repressing desire which could otherwise get evil (see I Cor 7); 3) the sacrament being an image of Christ and the Church by mutual fidelity.

TN said

People just trying to do the right thing.

HGL said

As long as they don't use condoms or coitus interruptus or worse, they can be within reason, ideally no NFP either.

One more subthread

coming after the "pastoral" one:

TN said

Just keep in mind when you do take a drink you are chemically altered

HGL said

When you eat you are chemically altered too.

TN said

Different effect

HGL said

Different, when it comes to sugar and early stages of alcohol euphoria, not too different.

TN said

I do feel different, sorry

HGL said

Nevertheless, you do feel sth when you eat.

TN said

Sth?

EC said

When you take medicine you are chemically altered

TN said

Alcohol is known to dull response time when driving

EC said

and eating too much makes you drowsy

TN said

But alcohol has many legal ramifications that eating does not. You do what you like. As for me and my house we will not indulge but keep a sober mind.

EC said

You can consume alcohol without being drunk

TN said

Try an experiment and observe another person and take note of the differences after consuming the first one. Without you imbibing.

HGL said

TN sth = something (S ome TH ing)

Response time for drivers, correct, but we are not driving the road 24 by 24. Nor should we.

As for you and yours, you do what you like.

Legal ramifications in US law is not the issue when it comes to Christian morality and overeating is as much a sin as getting drunk.

As to the experiment you proposed, I was enjoying the video with Catholic Couple and Lizzie's Answers and reflecting "why wasn't I invited" ...

LizziesAnswers - The Newest YouTube Convert!
That Catholic Couple | Diffusé en direct le 12 mars 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j6zYWlEeHY

A weird thing seems to happen

when I had posted it and TN answered, I saw my last answer and her answer to that had moved upthread.

TN's name crossed out for anonymity.

... on Palestinians, esp. Christians, and Twelve Tribes

BE, DP and MH are ladies, HGL is myself, abbreviated since abbreviating the others.

BE

2 mars, 20:25

Read revelation. There is no Gentile gate. There are only gates for the 12 tribes of Israel. To enter the kingdom you must be grafted into Israel through Christ.

Skipping

some

HGL

I think this was settled in Acts 15.

Also, the Church is the true Israel, the Synagogue is the false one.

DP

Yes the church is the spiritual Israel but there is a physical Israel too all 12 tribes not just the Jews

HGL

Well, thing is, many of them are already in the Church.

DP

HGL no there not. Which church are you suggesting they are in

HGL

The Catholic Church.

Palestinians come from Samaria as well as from Judea.

[Marked as hilarious by BE]

(OK, some are in Greek Orthodox Church too, not quite correct, but still)

DP

HGL certainly NOT the RC church. Have you read their doctrine and history and what the bible say is the future of the Pope that man of sin

HGL

I am a Roman Catholic and probably know their doctrine and history better than you.

I'd like you to show where in the B I B L E it is supposed to say precisely a P O P E is the man if sin.

(Or, try to)

DP

HGL sorry to offend but you might remember this conversation when it just might matter. The Pope will shift to Jerusalem. He will do mighty miracles. He will sit in the Holy of Holies after the Jews rebuild the temple. He will preside over the world Churches . Gods true church will be persecuted Rev 17 and 18

HGL

If St Peter's is the Holy of Holies, it might be an Antipope has already sat himself there.

BE, I fail to see what is hilarious with the comment The Catholic Church.

Palestinians come from Samaria as well as from Judea.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Samaria the tribe of Ephraim?

(Note, Palestinians come from Galilea too, but that is more like displaced tribe of Judah then like tribes originally from there).

DP

HGL who is being hilarious

HGL

DP, not sure if you saw the smiley at the comment, it was the smiley of the type "hilarious", or "cracks me up". If you click it, you can find who thought so. It was BE - and I am well aware she found me hilarious.

That is not the question who, just why.

DP

HGL Ephraim is a Son of Joseph Great Britain , Australia New Zealand

HGL

DP, if you check the book of Joshua and later Kings, Ephraim is Samaria.

There may be another Biblical character for English speakers and it could be a less pleasant one.

Here is an Israelite:

https://www.facebook.com/PalestinianChristians/photos/a.179158768779783.44970.153125724716421/1081495201879464/?type=3&theater



Not sure if Nablus is Samaria or Galilea, it is somewhere North anyway.

DP

HGL Not saint peters that’s in Rome The temple the Jews will rebuild. In Jerusalem. Now the Palestinians are not Israel they are Gentiles.

HGL you are defiantly wrong. I know who and where the 12 tribes of Israel are. It is common knowledge to any who understands history of the bible

HGL

"Not saint peters that’s in Rome"

Still the temple of God.

"The temple the Jews will rebuild."

Doesn't say in the verse.

"Now the Palestinians are not Israel they are Gentiles."

False. They are Israelites uniting in the Apostolic Church when the second CHurch was Samaria, see Acts 8, fulfilling Isaiah 11. P L U S their descendants, some still Christian and some alas Muslim, to this day. That population is called Palestinians.

You do not understand or even know history of the CHurch.

BE

The Catholic Church does not replace Israel. The Catholic Church doesn't even adhere to the Torah. Revelation 18 tells us how the Catholic Church along with all the other false denominations (including Protestants) will be deconstructed. Ultimately, Yeshua will return to enforce and established the Torah which the mainstream church's have made void. Isaiah 66, Zechariah 14, Micah 4, rev 17,18

It's all happened before and the same things happening nape.

BE

The 1st century church fathers adhered to the Torah but the RCC strayed. Come out of her.

HGL

"The Catholic Church does not replace Israel."

Continues it, see Acts 1 (where twelveness of apostles is essential) and 2 where Catholic Church unites dispered Jews.

"The Catholic Church doesn't even adhere to the Torah."

You mean it does not impose the Cashrut. Decided in Acts 15. You mean the Lord's Day was changed because New Creation beginning on Resurrection Sunday trumps Old Creation, ending on first Sabbath.

But if it comes to truths rather than ritual, yes, the Catholic Church definitely does adhere to the Torah, at least if you except some Modernist with doubtful qualifications on being Catholic, who doubt there was an Adam created directly from dust.

"Revelation 18 tells us how the Catholic Church along with all the other false denominations (including Protestants) will be deconstructed."

Not really, since the chapter contains no two words saying "Catholic Church".

"The 1st century church fathers adhered to the Torah but the RCC strayed. Come out of her."

Your words contradict Matthew 28:20. E V E R Y day. Not just for one century, but for all centuries up to Doomsday.

DP

HGL you believe what you want but I do understand a lot more than you give me credit for. I do know the history of Gods true church and of the RC church and of the 12 tribes of Israel or 13 tribes because Joseph’s sons are joint heirs Great Britain and USA. Truth cannot be changed despite what some WANT to believe. Rev 2 and 3 show the eras of Gods Church. We are now going into the Laodicean era. Note Ephesus is mentioned as a city on the mail route not as a tribe or nation.

HGL

"I do know the history of Gods true church"

Well, what happened after the 1st C Church Fathers adhered to the Torah, as BE claimed?

"and of the RC church"

Just checking who was on your view the first Pope of it?

I have posed that question to non-Catholics on quora, apart from Constantine who was not a Pope, I have had no answer.

"and of the 12 tribes of Israel or 13 tribes because Joseph’s sons are joint heirs Great Britain and USA"

What language is spoken the four corners of the Earth?

If you take only Old World, you would have NW Europe, Cape of Good Hope, Singapore / New Guinea / Australia, Sakhalin and Japan. That would make Americas an Island world.

If you consider Atlantic as an inner sea, and Americas as included, the four corners would be Alaska, Cape Horn, Singapore / New Guinea / Australia, Sakhalin and Japan.

Which of these four corners do you not find English spoken in? Of course, Jewish presence would also be there.

What Biblical character is said to come from the four corners of the Earth?

Now, one more, where do you get this idea from, that the sons of Joseph are English?

"Truth cannot be changed despite what some WANT to believe."

Truth cannot, no. THat is why I stick to a Church with unchanging doctrine.

"Rev 2 and 3 show the eras of Gods Church."

That idea is disputable, it would seem to apply immediately to seven Churches of the area.

And typologically to diverse Churches and diverse souls all over the time - not to specific eras.

"Note Ephesus is mentioned as a city on the mail route not as a tribe or nation"

Of course. So?

DP

HGL saint Peters is not the temple of God. Even the pope will move to the temple the Jews will rebuild because he knows it is the temple of God and he will sit in the Holy of Holies. It is written and it will be . Gods word and prophesies are sure

BE

HGL

My words contradict matthew 28:20?

Where in scripture is authority given to men to change Yahovah's law? Did it Yeshua tell us to do all that is taught from Moses seat?

You are free to walk as you will, but I will not be caught making the Torah of YHVH void. Which is very thing the Pharisees were rebuked and condemned for.

True Israel exists outside the Roman Catholic Church, as true Israel does not submit to foreign Gods.

You say you are Jews but you are not.

Shalom.

HGL

DP "Gods word and prophesies are sure"

And water is wet. Yes.

Water is wet doesn't answer which day it was raining, and your word's don't answer where in the Bible you find your interpretation buttressed.

"saint Peters is not the temple of God."

It is, or to recently was.

"Even the pope"

Sorry, I can't see Bergoglio as Pope, if that is who you mean.

"will move to the temple"

Bergoglio already is in what was recently a temple of God, perhaps still is (would perhaps need reconsecration if a true Pope comes back there).

"the Jews will rebuild"

Not sure they can. The place where the Mosque is, is tectonically unstable, according to some.

"because he knows it is the temple of God and he will sit in the Holy of Holies."

If Bergoglio thinks so, he may do that too. But not sure it can be the temple of God, since Aaronitic priesthood was replaced by Melchisedecian one.

"It is written and it will be ."

The prophecies are, your interpretation of them needs support you are not giving.

BE "My words contradict matthew 28:20?"

They do unless you show a historically continuous Church from the day of Christ to the present.

"Where in scripture is authority given to men to change Yahovah's law? Did it Yeshua tell us to do all that is taught from Moses seat?"

He said so before His death, while the Old Covenant was still valid and had a content. We do not say it is no longer valid, we say it was voided of content.

Now, the words still apply, but now to those who sit on and teach from St Peter's seat, should they behave like Pharisees.

"You are free to walk as you will, but I will not be caught making the Torah of YHVH void. Which is very thing the Pharisees were rebuked and condemned for."

Voiding of Old Covenant is not the same as voiding of Law. Some parts of the law were specific to Old Covenant, others are not voided.

"True Israel exists outside the Roman Catholic Church, as true Israel does not submit to foreign Gods."

Where was "true Israel" in AD 800?

(For pax, it is a bit early)

BE

HGL the messianic Jewish people who have faith in Yeshua and obey the Torah of YHVH. Revelation 14:12

This is the church.

MH

The twelve tribes of Israel are returning to Israel from many nations. The rabbis in Israel have many tests to authenticate that.

The Palestinians are Arabs, although they have other bloodlines too (Egypt, Syria, Phoenicia, Turkey, etc.) Arabs and Jews share some genes; they are cousins. Christian Arabs are not lost tribes of Israel.

Western nations have no genes, historical/religious roots or language roots tracing back to any of the tribes of Israel. When Christianity came to pagan Europe, the Jewish roots of the Christian faith came too - in the Bible. British Israelism is fake history.

HGL

BE "the messianic Jewish people who have faith in Yeshua and obey the Torah of YHVH."

Since when?

Palestinians, since 2000 years.

MH "The Palestinians are Arabs"

No, in Muslim thought, excepting a few Muslim nobles among Palestinians, the Arabic speaking peoples of Near East outside Arabian Peninsula are not "Arab", but "Mustariba" - it means they are "Arabised" and spoke something else before.

Palestinians celebrate Liturgy in Aramaic, which was the language of Jesus.

Do you start to comprehend what part of history you need to look on?

MH "When Christianity came to pagan Europe, the Jewish roots of the Christian faith came too - in the Bible."

In Catholic Church and its Bible.

MH

Jesus is the Head of His body now. Only Jesus.

BE

HGL if your last comment is true, then why did the Catholic Church segregate the Gentile believers from the Jewish believers in Christ by keeping them from observing the Shabbat together or the feasts? Why did the Catholic Church think it acceptable to change the laws and times as the prophecy of daniel for-tells? It's lawlessness.

Ezekiel tells us that Israel will he rejoined to Judah and we will establish the law of the Most High which is His Torah, kept with faith in Yeshua.

I pray for the scales to be removed from you eyes, my friend. That you may seen clearly all things written and come to truly understand the God you serve.

HGL

BE, Where do you have ANY Jewish believers all through the ages who did so?

For instance AD 800?

"Ezekiel tells us that Israel will he rejoined to Judah and we will establish the law of the Most High which is His Torah, kept with faith in Yeshua."

Happened in Acts 8 and the Christian Palestinians are still there.

BE

HGL this hasn't happened yet. Judah is only one of 12 tribes.

HGL

Yes, but in Acts 8 Judah (Jerusalem) reunited with the main tribe of Israel, Ephraim.

It happened 2000 years ago.

Much of rest of tribes, see Mesopotamian Christendom.

Skipping

some more.

FB fait "le malin" à propos une collecte faite par ma mère

La collecte de fonds:

Insamling för Caritas International
Collecte de fonds pour Caritas international de Birgitta Lundhal ·
https://www.facebook.com/donate/413745042413640/

Ce qui se passe quand j'essaie d'inviter des amis:



Raison possible, au moins:

J'avais dernière fois avant invité des amis (dont un Athée d'origine juive) à aimer la page de ن † Palestinian Christians

Debating Göbekli Tepe as Tower of Babel

Kevin Bruce

Status in group

How high was the tower of bable before it fell? Also, where was the tower?

Jon Learen

Plain of Shinar. Size unknown, nor does it matter.

Kevin Bruce

Can you show it on a modern map?

Jon Learen

Idk where in modern Iraq that may be.

Kevin Bruce

So... No satalite photo?

Whitney Eslick Manuel

Babel...B-a-b-e-l.

Kevin Bruce

S-h-o-w--i-t--o-n--a--m-a-p

Hans-Georg Lundahl

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...
Gobekli Tepe
Ancient site near Urfa, Turkey



https://www.google.fr/maps/place/G%C3%B6beklitepe,+Da%C4%9Fete%C4%9Fi+Mahallesi,+63290+Haliliye%2F%C5%9Eanl%C4%B1urfa,+Turquie/@37.2127828,39.3677901,9.33z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x15346502fe912231:0x24d422700430381a!8m2!3d37.2170459!4d38.8542544

Kevin Bruce

Doesn't look like a tower.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If you followed my other comments here [see below, but earlier, also I think other thread], I am not claiming the tower left any ruins there.

I am claiming "a tower THE TOP OF WHICH reaches into heaven" describes a three step rocket.

The Bible says they ceased to build the city, and Göbekli Tepe has been deliberately covered up after abandonment.

Obviously, if I am right, the ones covering up Göbekli Tepe would have had a motive to remove all traces of the rocket as such.

Also, it is fairly possible that baked bricks of Göbekli Tepe were removed to a later construction - supposing the carbon dating is skewed by a rising carbon level and that there were really just centuries to the oldest constructions with baked bricks that we find.

Ty McCullough

It was in Iraq. Which is why our army took it over. The wierdo's want to rebuild babylon and the wierdo's control everything

Jack Stargel

It was on the Plains of Shinar in Iraq, a stone's throw from where Saddam Hussein built his main residential compound.

Kevin Bruce

So.... You should be able to show it on a map, yes?

Jack Stargel

Sure, and so could you with a little effort.

John Edgar Erasmus

How high it was is irrelevant, the point was mans rebellion in that they did not populate the earth. They stayed in one place, after the babel event the worlds first "global" government collapsed

Kyle Rutherford

There was no babel event.

John Edgar Erasmus

Ok

Kevin Bruce

Great John, but I actually asked. I want to know if the story is real. It seems we should be able to point to debris from this massive structure.

John Edgar Erasmus

Kevin Bruce.
There is no guarantee that the structure would still be standing as later peoples could have used it for building materials. If it was Gods will to have that piece in the Bible, I believe it.

If your looking for evidence of other Biblical events such as the 10 plaques in Egypt or the Red Sea crossing you won't need to look far as the BBC have documentaries on this.

Kevin Bruce

So you can't find it? When structures fall down some of the building materials break. Where is the rubble?

John Edgar Erasmus

Kevin Bruce .
I haven't looked and have no intention on looking for it.

We all know where the rubble of the twin towers are ( no offense)

To be honest with you I am past the "prove it stage" of my faith. Evolution vs Creation.....

The self replicating, error correcting storage and retrieval molecule we call DNA has closed that chapter for me.

My next phase is getting to know the word and the application thereof.

Kevin Bruce

Thanks for being no help at all.

Andrew Owen

Babel I think you mean🤣 you can read all about in Genesis ch 11

Kevin Bruce

Yes I can but sadly the Bible doesn't have any satalite pictures...

John Edgar Erasmus

But does call the globe a sphere, gives a clear indication of electricity and the hydrological cycle

Kevin Bruce

Does it now?

Wonder why the growth in biblical flat Earth...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Biblical flat earth is probably Talmudic flat earth - because Jews are converting.

John Edgar Erasmus

Kevin Bruce cause they haven't read Isaiah

Kevin Bruce

The word Chung comes to mind...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Chug.

Randy Frazier

The Tower of Babel FOUND?
URcall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiqezYFBUdA

[Find out what Greek historian Herodotus recorded about the Tower of Babel. Visit http://urcall.org/learn/ for more "Small Videos. Big Facts," about creation science.]

Kevin Bruce

That was basically useless.

Randy Frazier

Not.

Kevin Bruce

It's a minute long and doesn't answer any of my questions.

Randy Frazier

Some Very Compelling Evidence the Tower of Babel Was Real
Smithsonian Channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgksU2F18lg

[Biblical scholars have long debated whether the Tower of Babel really existed. Now, a remarkable stone tablet never before shown on film appears to settle that question.]

Nimrod and the Tower of Babel
Truth Center
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzE6Hr83jG0

[The Bible speaks of Nimrod being a great ruler on Earth after the flood. Nimrod was connected to ancient gods and bloodlines all through the Nephilim placing himself in this Nephilim/Anti-Christ. If you have a video idea then comment down below and if you want to see more videos then check out my channel and subscribe.]

More Curious is the question of How many names did the Evil King Nimrod=Gilgamesh=Nebachanezer, have? The Tower has been FOUND.

Derrick Hood

There are many ruins which people have claimed were the Tower of Babel, but the consensus is that the structure which best fits the description is a structure called the Ziggurat of Eridu.

Randy Frazier

SAME THING. lol

The Sumerians are not More Ancient than the Flood of Noah's Time that was World Wide. lol They just SAY that to ATTEMPT to discredit the Scriptures of the REAL His Story of the Universe and everything in it.

Most likely the Tower of Babel was akin to what they are doing with the CERN Facilities now a days.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"How high was the tower of bable before it fell?"

It doesn't say it fell:

[8] And so the Lord scattered them from that place into all lands, and they ceased to build the city. [9] And therefore the name thereof was called Babel, because there the language of the whole earth was confounded: and from thence the Lord scattered them abroad upon the face of all countries.

It also doesn't say they ceased to build the tower, just that they ceased to build the city.

My hunch is, the tower of which the top reaches into heaven describes a three step rocket.

It is an invention which recently has gone very high above us - the "top of the tower" that is - from Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur.

I think Nimrod was hoping to use Uranium for rocket fuel, which is why God sent the ice age to cover up Uranium mines of Canada.

I think he knew of Uranium from bombings having happened in a pre-Flood Mahabharata like war.

When the more recent tries were made, for one thing, the rocket fuel was less dangerous, and for another, humanity being already dispersed and multiplied, we didn't risk any more to make rockets a one world dictator's project.

Hence, it has gone very high very recently.

" Also, where was the tower?"

I got this hunch when someone had described features of Göbekli Tepe as a "rocket ramp".

So, my vote goes to Göbekli Tepe.

Randy Frazier

Lol. Nope. It was Gilgamesh=Babel. The City that Nimrod Founded.

That lies in Iraq. It does not mean there was only 1 though. The CERN Facilities they are attempting to breach the Veil with today are all over the World.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

" Can you show it on a modern map?"

Any thing between Euphrates and Tigris after they have flown down from the mountains.

Göbekli Tepe fits that bill, even if it is not Iraq, but eastern Turkey.

Also, to Randy Frazier, Babel here and Babel = Babylon are not same Hebrew word, just homophones.

"Gilgamesh=Babel."

Gilgamesh is not even a place, but a hero, possibly Nimrod, but certainly NOT a place he founded.

Derrick Hood, " There are many ruins which people have claimed were the Tower of Babel,"

While it only says the city was ceased from being built.

Not that the tower left any ruins.

"but the consensus is that the structure which best fits the description is a structure called the Ziggurat of Eridu."

It's top reaches into heaven only optically, if you view it from the foot.

BUT in the case of rockets, the top reaches into heaven physically.

Ziggurat of Eridu ...

"Amar-Sin's reign is notable for his attempt at regenerating the ancient sites of Sumer. He apparently worked on the unfinished ziggurat at Eridu.[4] Eridu was abandoned during his reign [reference needed]"

Two problems :

• 1) he is named in and spoke Sumerian, a post-Babel language
• 2) if anything in it is carbon dated to c. 2000 BC, this is a carbon date way too recent for the real dates of Babel according to my tables of carbon rise.

Richard Ray

These towers to heaven or to the heavens were probably the worship of heavenly bodies such as the planets. Ziggurats containing levels that correlate to the planets may be examples of these temples where the practice of worshiping these heavenly bodies were actually called "temples to the heavens". Check out the Ziggurats of Ur, etc.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

" Ziggurats"

Ziggurat of Ur is impossible, unless pre-Babel language was Sumerian, which I think very unlikely.

Give one Ziggurat which is dated to earlier than any Sumerian text tablets.

Kevin Bruce

Richard Ray the problem with that theory is that as far as we can tell the outer planets were not known to these peoples.

Richard Ray

They knew about 8 of the planets. They were called wandering stars. They were objects of curiosity and heavenly bodies that were worshiped, sought out by astrologers and read as similar to comets as having significance as they passed through the constellations. You can see 8 planets with the naked eye in a dark place well away from city lights.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"as far as we can tell the outer planets were not known to these peoples."

So?

1) Moon, 2) Mercury, 3) Venus, 4) Sun, 5) Mars, 6) Jupiter, 7) Saturn, 8) Fix Stars.

Of these only the last is not a planet - in the old sense of the word.

Richard Ray

I'm pretty sure that they knew about Neptune and Uranus. Uranus is definitely visible to the unaided eye and I myself have found it by eye so that I could line up my telescope get close before starting my alignment. Neptune is more difficult but there is no reason to believe that it cannot be seen if it is dark enough. L’image contient peut-être : nuit L’image contient peut-être : nuit, ciel et plein air

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Uranus is normally not visible to the unaided eye, perhaps you had long photo exposure.

Or mislabelled another celestial body as Uranus.

Richard Ray

I recall seeing it and then tracking it in a challenge from Astrology mag or blog. Similar to this one on Neptune which I have never seen with the unaided eye.https://astrobob.areavoices.com/.../astro-challenge-night/ Astro Challenge Night You can use this map to help you spot the tool bag tonight (Dec. 3). Times are shown every… astrobob.areavoices.com I'm pretty sure this was the night give or take that I found Uranus with the unaided eye and then the telescope. http://kool1079.com/this-week-is-the-best-time-to-see.../ I remember the greenish hue when viewed with the telescope and I'm sure that the line up was scaled correctly by the computerized finder I use. I used a two star alignment after being centered and leveled on true north. Then I told the computer to find Uranus and it scanned right to the planet I was looking at, having done a little gazing before entering the search into the "goto" computer.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"For our second challenge, we return to Neptune. This one’s a double-edged sword because we’ll use the moon to find the planet, but the moon’s brightness may make it harder to see. Still, we’re only talking a crescent moon, so maybe Neptune will survive the glare.

"If you have binoculars with 50mm lenses or larger, it’s definitely worth a try."

With binoculars = NOT with the naked eye.

"This week, the planet Uranus is only 1.77 billion miles from earth. Believe it or not, that’s close enough to see it. Normally, Uranus can barely be seen with the naked eye on a very dark, clear night. The tricky part is having a dark enough sky – and knowing exactly where to look. This week gives us an even better chance to see Uranus, due to it’s “close” proximity to earth."

Granted - but also said to be exceptional.

Richard Ray

But imagine how dark the sky was in ancient times. You know, no city lights anywhere. I'd imagine in North Korea you can see Uranus any time you look up in the night....

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Except you missed the point that one must also know where to look.

Richard Ray

If, under a very dark sky, an object is seen in a constellation that is not always in the same place in that constellation, it is a roaming star and people who watch the sky will take note of that "roaming star" once it's been noticed. Once it's noticed, it is now known where to look and to take note of where it is now.

So we now know that:

• 1. It can be seen with the naked eye under very dark skies.
• 2. The ancients looked for "roaming stars" because they held beliefs that these "roaming stars" had meaningful movements.
• 3. Once a "roaming star" was noticed, it was tracked by astrologers who's job it was to know where all the "roaming stars" were.

It is not reasonable to say that because the skies aren't usually dark enough today and they weren't dark enough in the past to 1. notice, 2. watch and track, such objects of interest.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

" If, under a very dark sky, an object is seen in a constellation that is not always in the same place in that constellation, it is a roaming star and people who watch the sky will take note of that "roaming star" once it's been noticed." - Key word, once it has been noticed.

Uranus if known back then would need to have been forgotten in the meantime.

Richard Ray

And you're saying you know that Uranus was not known even though it could be seen and the ancients were interested in tracking such objects. You may be right. But I'm not as sure as you seem to be that the planet (roaming star) was not observed.

Ancient Ziggurats - Background Bible Study (Bible History Online) http://www.bible-history.com/biblestudy/ziggurats.html

[The Ziggurat was a word which means "mountain top" and in the ancient world it was a pyramid which was constructed in stages, with a Temple at the top. It was believed that the gods dwelt at the top and they called this "The Mountain Of The World." The Gods dwelt at the peak of the mountain top and strangely enough the colors of each stage of the Ziggurat were the seven different colors of the rainbow.]

[Personal warning of site : ties in table of nations with race theories not its object.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Do you mean because of "The great Ziggurat of the Seven Spheres"?

1) Moon, 2) Mercury, 3) Venus, 4) Sun, 5) Mars, 6) Jupiter, 7) Saturn.

No Uranus needed.

Richard Ray

Yes those Ziggurats. They actually have enough levels to represent 8 planets. There are some who claim at least on outer planet. They have 8 levels and the in 18th Century the levels or spheres were assigned to 7. I'm fully aware of that research and the claim.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

8 levels? 8th one could represent fix stars.

Richard Ray

All beside the point. No need to rehash assignments. The facts are to be interpreted and you interpret the fact that even thought the planet could be seen, it was alas never seen. Good enough. We don't agree.

|9 level Ziggurat
L’image contient peut-être : ciel, nuage et plein air|

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[on nine level ziggurat] Star[t]ing with atmosphere, I suppose.

Look, ziggurats are very interesting but I don't think Tower of Babel was one of them.

Kevin Bruce

Looks small compared to the pyramids...

Hans is of the view that Noah's decendents were astronauts or at least attempted a space program...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Key word : attempted.

Richard Ray

And in the mean time using 7 stair Ziggurats to prove no one ever noticed Uranus. But there were Ziggs with more steps.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Richard Ray, the seven sphere ziggurat was from your link.

Even the nine step ziggurat involves no clear proof Uranus was noticed.

Kevin Bruce
I am sure Nimrod would have failed, where Cape Canaveral succeeded : Uranium is no good rocket fuel just because it is good bomb material (and yes, I think atomic bombs were used in a pre-Flood war best reflected as to details in Mahabharata).

Kevin Bruce

Hans-Georg Lundahl what language did god destroy exactly then? The language of science? You need science for a space program? But science isn't simply speech but also ideas and methods

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Kevin Bruce "what language did god destroy exactly then?"

In all speakers? None. In most of them : Hebrew. It was preserved in such as refused to obey Nimrod. Very few.

"The language of science? You need science for a space program?"

And I think Nimrod had insufficient science to succeed with his space program.

"But science isn't simply speech but also ideas and methods"

And by interrupting a premature project, it could mature a bit over millennia and bear fruit very recently - perhaps ushering in the end times.

Randy Frazier

Lol. WOW is all I am gonna say. Off to plant some things so I can Give Food away this Harvest time.

Josh Crystal Withe

God knew their plans and confounded their plans, who said they ever got past the making bricks stage? Or ever even laid the complete foundation? Ruins like that would be buried under many feet of dirt now, and even more dirt and trash if a city was built there later.

Randy Frazier

Hans-Georg Lundahl if Gilgamesh was not REAL then how did they find the City AND the Giant Ruler NAMED "Gilgamesh/Nimrod"? lol

Hans-Georg Lundahl

But there is not any CITY called Gilgamesh!

He was a RULER. His city was called URUK!

I am not in the least disputing the recent identification of Gilgamesh with Nimrod, it would be like Nimrod to first try and visit Noah and then brag about things which never occurred in the visit!

And also, Gilgamesh being a giant does fit Nimrod who "began to be a giant".

BUT, I happen to know the Gilgamesh story too well to think it was the name of a city.

Sean Ovis

Just as a matter of interest, the tower of Babel was built how many years after a cataclysmic global extinction event which destroyed every inch of the planet and left it a festering wilderness of mud, rubble, decomposing bodies, stinking fish and decaying vegetable matter?

Richard Ray

Depends on how you read the genealogies of Genesis. Probably 400 years or so.

Sean Ovis

so, about 1900 BCE?

Richard Ray

I'd have to look it up when I'm off work. I don't want to be called on this. Just talking off the top of my head. Wait a minute and I'll look for something I was researching last month.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Depending on diverging Biblical Chronologies for birth of Peleg, you can date start of building to 101 or 529 after Flood or some in between, + 5 years after he was born.

According to one tradition.

Note, the identification with Tower of Babel with Göbekli Tepe I am doing involves carbon 14 level having been so low that a Tower of Babel c. 2204 BC (Ussher) or XV 2780 BC (Syncellus) is misdated, carbon level back then 49.459 pmc, carbon dated year 8600 BC.

For end of GT or dispersion from Babel.

Richard Ray

Something to consider: I have this marked for further study.

Were the Pyramids Built Before the Flood?
NathanH83
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE

[This is a video explaining whether or not the Egyptian pyramids were built before the flood of Noah's day. It also deals with Issues with the accuracy of the Hebrew Masoretic text verses the Greek Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Tower of Babel, the age of the Earth, an extra Cainan in Jesus' genealogy, and the identity of Melchizedek - not in that particular order.]

[Before completing this article, I wathed and commented on the video, here is article with my comments and answering two of Nathan's objections:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... Pyramids, Flood, Babel, LXX, Dead Sea Scrolls
http://assortedretorts.blogspot.fr/2017/06/pyramids-flood-babel-lxx-dead-sea.html]

Sean Ovis

Why would anyone think that Gobekli Tepi was in any way related to Babel? It looks nothing like a tower, not even the base of a tower, and the complex hasn't been demolished; the complex was built on successively by different generations.

And recently, haven't the carvings on the stones been assocciated with astronomical phenomena?

| http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../ancient-stone-carvings.../
L’image contient peut-être : plein air|

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"It looks nothing like a tower,"

Tell me more! Is water wet too?

That very pit looks like a rocket ramp, and the tower, if it had been finished, would have been a rocket.

"the complex hasn't been demolished"

However, covered.

"the complex was built on successively by different generations."

In my recalibration there are in fact just 40 years to the diverse levels of it.

"And recently, haven't the carvings on the stones been assocciated with astronomical phenomena?"

Unfortunately, I think their stellarium software has been used for the wrong year.

Sean Ovis

This is the aerial view.

It really does not look like these buildings are going to be supporting that much. I mean they are net even laid out symmetrically.

| L’image contient peut-être : plein air |

Hans-Georg Lundahl

There is a pit where the rocket could have been placed and another one where people on ground could take shelter while the take off lasted.

Inadequate. Nimrod only knew the Uranium explosions from rumours, he had never seen one.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"and another one"

Make that other ones, plural.

Sean Ovis

//Their is a pit where the rocket could have been placed and another one where people on ground could take shelter while the take off lasted.//

I think I have a picture of them:

[Picture of three persons in tin foil hats, pun or pique received.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, when rational arguments are wanting or fail, ridicule is available.

Shall we try to get back and see if your rational arguments were failing on me or were lacking for you?

How do you test a claim like :

• 1) Göbekli Tepe was arranged in order to serve as a rocket ramp
• 2) but never did because God intervened
• 3) and so we see remains of the ramp (minus baked bricks taken away later), but no rocket, alias no tower

whether this is false or true?

My test is : does it fit the Bible or contradict it, does it fit other material or contradict it?

I think it fits fairly well. Your turn!

Curtis Curtlegger Ensley

Where in the World Is the Tower of Babel?
by Anne Habermehl on March 23, 2011
https://answersingenesis.org/tower-of-babel/where-in-the-world-is-the-tower-of-babel/

Sean Ovis

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I refer you to Genesis 11

"3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

Is Gobekli Tepi made out of bricks?

No.

| L’image contient peut-être : plein air |

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Curtis Curtlegger Ensley - I have corresponded with Anne Habermehl, and we disagree on many things.

I think she is putting ToB way too early in comparison to archaeology.

Hence its disappearance.

But she actually mentions GT's neighbour Urfa /Edessa being in Shinar:

// Also, in the ancient Turkish city of Edessa, now called Sanliurfa or Urfa (Grant 1997, p. 229), Nebo was one of the main two gods from very early times. (Drijvers 1980, pp. 40–75) says that “Nebo holds the first place and evidently is Edessa’s most venerated god.” Sanliurfa is in a plain about 50 km (31 miles) north of Harran, just north of the Turkish border, east of the Euphrates River (Heritage 2004, p. 143). This puts Sanliurfa within Shinar, and we therefore could consider it as a candidate for the place in Shinar where Nebuchadnezzar might have left his loot. //

To do her justice, I have no refutation about her idea about Tell Brak and area.

Kevin Bruce

This is halarious.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Glad you like it!

How about the truth value, probable or reverse? And why?

Kevin Bruce

?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Btw, going over a thing you wrote earlier:

"what language did god destroy exactly then? The language of science? You need science for a space program? But science isn't simply speech but also ideas and methods"

One of the methods is cooperation between many.

Say you have ten thousand scientists in diverse fields, or even just a thousand. Then they break up in 72 groups, and now each group has 14 members - imagine the technology loss!

Kevin Bruce

So.... These peoples were smart enough to start a space program but could not figure out how to overcome a language barrier???

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• 1) They were not smart enough to start a valid space program, but stupid enough to rush into a badly planned one;
• 2) This was mankind's very first experience of a language barrier, all grammars and translations and stuff we have now had to be developed since.

[To Sean Ovis

we'll see if he catches up:]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Is Gobekli Tepi made out of bricks?"

Already adressed that. GT has been deliberately covered, and the bricks could have been removed during that process.

Imagine superstitious pagans with a great sense of "mascots" using bricks from Göbekli Tepe, the project of the Great Architect Nimrod, for future building projects.

In conventional carbon dating some millennia later, but in the recalibration actually only a few centuries later.

Bricks would be as removed as meat from a carcass eaten by ants.