Freewill

Atheists vs Christians Debate Central 101

David Knowles

status

If God took away our free will to sin, we would be more like God because God can't sin. So evil isn't necessary for good to exist.

I

Hans-Georg Lundahl

God can't sin and a stone can't sin.

God taking away our free will would make us more like a stone.

If we freely collaborate with God, the moment He perfects our freedom to no longer be able to sin is at death. If we don't, that's when we lose the freedom to repent.

I a

David Knowles

Hans-Georg Lundahl God has free will and he is not like a stone so why would humans be that way? You logic is faulty.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

God has free will and cannot sin.

I b

David Knowles

Hans-Georg Lundahl God never gave anybody free will. God gave obey or die. That's coercion. Free will is not even a biblical concept. It's a Roman Orthodox Church invention so they could prove inheritable sin. If you had actual free will you could just choose not to sin but you can't because god cursed humanity with inherited sin, not free will.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

David Knowles "obey or die" isn't a lack of free will, it's an incentive to use it.

God also gave us opportunities enough to ignore the incentive, so it doesn't constitute coercion.

I c

Greg Tyler

Hans-Georg Lundahl That's like saying God takes away freewill because we can't breath underwater.

If your God is so helpless he can't keep freewill and make us incapable of sinning, that bodes poorly for Heaven.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Greg Tyler It's not a question for God being helpless, it's a question for God being consistent.

If God takes away the freedom to sin in advance, that takes away the free will.

If God takes away the freedom to sin as a reward for chosing not to sin, that takes away a distraction and weakness.

Greg Tyler

Hans-Georg Lundahl Would you focus on the issue?

One can have freewill and not sin.

This is true.

So why not give people freewill without sin?

The answer is not because you don't understand the paradigm.

If you indicate you can not understand this, it is clear your opinion and your reason for religion, is erroneous.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Greg Tyler "One can have freewill and not sin."

Under condition of having a perfect will.

Now, the perfect will comes in "two flavours" ... God's will is the definition of perfect and always was. A created will has to progress by choices to *become* perfect.

Greg Tyler

Hans-Georg Lundahl No, it does not, and you have no authority to say so.

A God of your description could have given us freewill without the capacity to sin, in the same way he could give us the freewill and be unable to breath water.

The reason this is otherwise, is because God is a fiction.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Greg Tyler The reason this is otherwise is, because a creature cannot have freewill without some at least initial independence of the creator.

Not sinning = perfected dependence on God.

Now, Mary did have that from the beginning, but that was a privilege.

Greg Tyler

Hans-Georg Lundahl Since there is no creator, this is wrong.

[meme referring to First Law of Thermodynamics]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Greg Tyler The denial of creation from a law that would describe a common experience, but cannot deny its universality either in time or space is not a reason against good points about creation.

Greg Tyler

Hans-Georg Lundahl You can talk sideways all you want, but all your ideas have been shown false.

Your God is false, proven decisively.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Greg Tyler I'm so sorry that you take a mis-stated observation about nature as a "proof" against her Author.

Greg Tyler

Hans-Georg Lundahl You have demonstrated an inability to follow a conversation, much less the complexities of this subject.

Your opinions, unsubstantiated opinions, are dismissed for these reasons.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Greg Tyler "inability to follow a conversation,"

More like you have.

"Your opinions ... are dismissed"

My Latin teacher told class one day, the passive has a first hand use in avoiding to talking about the doer ... who's doing the dismissing? You, Greg Tyler?

Greg Tyler

Hans-Georg Lundahl You have not been able to follow the conversation, made things up, and submitted opinion as fact.

What can I do but consider you unworthy of conversation?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Greg Tyler Oh, *you* are doing so, thanks for the clarification.

I'm not answering the rest of your comment.

Greg Tyler

Hans-Georg Lundahl Correct, you have shown you do not have the capacity.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Greg Tyler To your taste, not the best.

Excursus

The Byzantine Forum: The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Mary's Impeccability
https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/400295/the-roman-catholic-doctrine-of-marys-impeccability

II

Jay Reb

How did you verify that free will even exists

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If I lie, I know I could have been silent or I could have spoken otherwise and said the truth.

II a

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl how do you know that? How do you know you could have done anything differently?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb How do you know anything about yourself?

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl I can only trust what my brain tells me. So I ask again, how did you verify that free will exists? I personally don’t think it does.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb I need to repeat the question: how do you know *anything* about yourself?

Is introspection valid evidence that I think?

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl I am forced to trust what my brain says about me.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb Freewill doesn't mean freedom on all levels.

I'm also forced to believe the grass is green, as per my eye-sight.

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl that’s not what I mean. I mean everything is based on cause and effect and the laws of physics. If you restarted the big bang, I maintain everything would happen exactly the same way. Every single time.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb The laws of physics make no statements about exclusivity in causation.

They only make statements of exclusively one outcome other things being equal (which often enough, they aren't). They make no statements whatsoever about the other thing needing to be also phsyical and also subject to the laws of physics.

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl that’s why cause and effect is the other thing I mentioned. Please explain how you could do anything different if given the exact same situation with the exact same knowledge and emotional state. You would make the same choice over and over and over for eternity.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb You are presuming all causes are, like the physical ones, such as can have only one particular effect.

Wrongly so.

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl how can the exact same action have a different effect?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb You are forgetting that the will is not just a passive resultant of inner and outer circumstances, but actively engaged in forming what we receive, certainly from the outside to some degree even from the inside.

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl that makes no sense.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb Oh, your will just floats along with whatever stimulates it, without any attempt of curbing it?

Too bad for you, if that's the case.

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl you’re missing the point. How do you verify that you have a choice over what decision you make?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb I've already answered: like I verify that I think, like I verify that I see green when looking at grass.

Immediate experience.

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl you’re missing the point. How do you verify that you have a choice over what decision you make?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb Again, what *verification* do you ask of *immediate experience*?

Leaving out

a foulworded reply from Jay Reb, but he claimed he was asking me to prove my claim.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb No, you weren't.

You were asking me how I verified, presumably to myself in the first place.

That's different from proving to you.

Now, if you have no immediate experience of actually chosing, I can't help you. That's just too bad for you, if so.

Jay Reb

Hans-Georg Lundahl no, if you can verify it to yourself, you can verify it to anyone.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jay Reb Not the least.

I can verify to myself I ate cherry yoghurt this morning, not to you.

II b

Jamison Peterson

Hans-Georg Lundahl Even if you repeat a lie believing it to be true, you're still lying!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jamison Peterson No, that's not lying, that's repeating a lie.

Jamison Peterson

Hans-Georg Lundahl Does repeating a lie somehow make it true? A lie, is a lie, is a lie!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jamison Peterson No, repeating a lie believing it to be true (and not just possible) is a different action from saying what you know to be a lie and from being callous about the possibility.

Jamison Peterson

Hans-Georg Lundahl A lie is a lie. It can't be excused by igorance.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Jamison Peterson If I'm ignorant, the lie may still be someone's lie, but not mine. It's in that case just my mistake.