I could not link to my New Tables post on FB, I know it is regularly censored as anything else on creavsevolu, but here is the link for you guys:
Creation vs. Evolution : New Tables
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html
It's from 13.VIII.2020, incorporates work I did on paper during the lockdown, which blocked my internet access. Hence the I—II table, Flood to beginning of Babel, which should have began on 40 000 BP, began on 41 000 BP, and the correct carbon date for 2958 BC is just 39 000 BP.
Anyway, here is the first debate:
- Matthew Hunt
- https://www.facebook.com/groups/201189381177748/posts/1047308916565786/
- 4 Jan 2024
- Thanks to the geologists here, I have gained an understanding of radiocarbon dating as being different from the use of other radioisotopes for radiometric dating. You may have issues with the calibration curves, and my (brief) examination into this topic makes it appear very complicated. This however doesn't invalidate the dates that the simple method that I presented in the files section invalid.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- I am sorry, but your last sentence seems somewhat of an anacoluthon. I e began from different view points.
I suppose you mean (correct me if I am wrong), this:
This however doesn't invalidate the dates nor prove that the simple method that I presented in the files section is invalid.
That said, I would consider radiocarbon as the one radiometric method that's valid, only, when it comes to dates before the Fall of Troy, the direct dates need to be reduced if there was a carbon build up.
Let a sample today have 15.603 pmC. This means it's carbon dated to "13 333 BC". 15350 YA, +/- 10 - 2024 = 13326 BC +/- 10.
If the original carbon 14 content was 100 pmC, then 15.603 pmC means that.
However, if the sample was from 2733 BC, and the original carbon 14 content in it was back then 27.679 pmC, that also perfectly accounts for the "13 333 BC" date.
In such a case, I take 27.679 pmC, see that it means 10600 years, meaning that was the sample's instant age, and then add that to the real BC, making 10600 + 2733 = 13333 BC.
I obtain the 27.679 pmC by "plotting a curve" (except I'm sore at graphs) from 1.4 pmC, now corrected to 1.625 pmC at the Flood to 42.8224 pmC when Babel begins. Dates are
2958 BC read as 39000 BP
2607 BC read as 9600 BC
THOSE carbon dates I have from Campi Flegrei tephra and from lowest charcoal layer found in Göbekli Tepe.
From the real and carbondated dates, I obtain the extra years, and from there the carbon 14 levels.
Basically same thing that is done in calibration curves, except instead of giving real carbon 14 levels and deducing carbon date as that influencing the view of the real date, as long as the variations are seen as very small, they do calibration as percentages of carbon dates instead.
I see the variation as much bigger, a major rise between Flood and Fall of Troy (archaeology of Hissarlik having a layer that matches the historic date of the Fall of Troy). The production rate of C14 was at times c. 10~11 times faster than it is on average now.
Here is another one:
- Ken Wolgemuth
- https://www.facebook.com/groups/201189381177748/posts/984572859506059/
- 7 Sept 2023
- Fred Mcnabb, To wrap up the tree ring segment for radiocarbon dating, I will show examples of the calibration curve. This first one is from 1950 to 2k, meaning 2,000 years BP, before present. Notice there are about 1,500 C-14 measurements for this segment along of the calibration curve. The for 2k to 4k there are over 200 points. Then the 3rd, shows the Biblical Archaeology examples.
- Matthew Hunt
- So how do the calibration curves work? It isn't the same as the radiometric dating using other radioisotopes is it?
Are there other radioisotopes that can be used as an alternative to carbon?
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- The calibration curves work like this:
1) know the date by some other means
2) note the difference from the raw radiometric date
3) apply the same difference all over the board.
The ones presented by Ken Wohlgemuth use tree rings, mine own uses Biblical events reflected in archaeology for the independent knowledge of the date.
A third:
- Ken Wolgemuth
- https://www.facebook.com/groups/201189381177748/posts/979901389973206/
- 28 Aug 2023
- TO: Fred Mcnabb
This post is in response to your request quoted below. To be sure that you can continue to receive the steps of radiocarbon dating, I suggest you send me an email message to have a backup way for me to send the steps to you: [left out, since my readers are a wider audience than the group members in that closed FB group
"I would be very interested in diving into that topic.
Could you break it down into numbered steps so if I don't understand a point I can specifically refer to the number for clarification?"
Thank you for asking, and I am willing to step through the process slowly. Step 1 is to understand that Carbon-14 is produced in the upper atmosphere by cosmic rays bombarding the earth, hitting nitrogen-14 atoms, and converting them to carbon-14. This combines with oxygen forming carbon dioxide which is taken up by trees and plants for photosynthesis. Animals eat the grass and C-14 gets into their bodies and bones.
It is well-known that C-14 production in the atmosphere is variable due to the variability of cosmic ray flux. This variability is evident in the attached graph by the squiggly red line. This means that a calibration curve must be constructed to account for all of those variations. (I will comment about Hezekiah's tunnel later).
Step #2 is the Cross-dating process which I showed on another Reply in this group. It matches the tree rings patterns of dead trees to living trees to extend a continuous sequence in years back in time. Did you see that, or do I need to repeat it?
More Later,
Ken
- Ken Wolgemuth
- Auteur
- TO: Fred Mcnabb,
This graph shows the criteria that are addressed with the 4,000+ sample red line I posted previously, back to 14,000 years. The two solid blue lines are the expected window for the carbon-14 content will fall if the tree rings are formed 1 per year, if the half-life has remained constant at 5,730 years over the last 50,000 years, and if the production of carbon-14 in the upper atmosphere has remained with the limits of the squiggly line I showed before. The yellow dotted line would indicate that many rings per year were formed by the trees. The red dotted line would indicate there was much less carbon-14 in the atmosphere, and/or the decay rate of carbon-14 was faster over the last 50,000 years. This means the half-life changed and was much shorter than 5,730 years.
As you saw in the graph for step # 3, the 4,000+ data points fall with the solid blue lines, affirming that, on average, German Oaks trees grow and form 1 ring per year, and the half-life of carbon-14 has remained the same, and the production of carbon-14 in the upper atmosphere has remained very similar, with the variations due to variation in cosmic rays bombarding the earth.
The next step coming later, # 4, will add sedimentary varves which extend the calibration curve from 14,000 years back to 50,000 years.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Ken Wolgemuth In order to do the steps for radiocarbon from tree rings, you need to have a much more exhaustive tree ring record than you have from that far back.
I think Biblical history is more reliable than tree rings, like it is more reliable than tea leaves.
The historic (not exclusively Biblical) dates, and the reasonably associated archaeology match at the fall of Troy, and diverge by 1500 years or more at Genesis 14. I'll believe Genesis 14 over tree rings. At fall of Troy, tree rings and carbon match the pagan account anyway.
- Ken Wolgemuth
- Auteur
- Hans-Georg Lundahl,
The Fall of Troy is certainly within the time window for the calibration curve derived from Tree Ring counting, about 3,000 years ago. Be aware that there are error bars for radiocarbon ages in the range of ± 50 to ± 100 years, depending where on the calibration curve the sample is located.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Ken Wolgemuth I was not denying that. But Troy fell 1180 BC, Asason-Tamar was evacuated in 1935 BC (with Abraham born in 2015).
Now, carbon dates for Troy are 1180 BC. Carbon date for evacuation of Chalcolithic En-Geddi (a k a Asason Tamar), is 3500 BC.
I think that is a very much more reliable calibration than tree rings.
- Ken Wolgemuth
- Auteur
- Hans-Georg Lundahl,
I know that archaeology has various ways of assigning ages to events, but I have not studied them. So I have no background for discussion.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Ken Wolgemuth I know for a fact that the findings from Troy involved burned wood, and the findings from a cave at a stream near En-Geddi involves reed mats.
In other words, I know that these two datings repose on carbon dating.
A reed plant is hardly eligible for reservoir effect. It gets its carbon from the atmosphere.
A clam living in water that's rich in calcium is eligible for the reservoir effect. So is a man eating such clams.
And there is more to it.
Men have been carbon dated to 40 000 BP. Pretty many Neanderthals, Denisovans, and actually a few Homo sapiens. In a cave in Romania, two men were found, carbon dated to 45 000 BP, who were half Neanderthal and half Homo sapiens.
It is certain that Neanderthals have shown human behaviour traceable in paleo-anthropologic archaeology. The hyoid bone in Kebara 2 had been using the tongue exactly the way a modern man would while talking over many years.
1) If you don't admit that Adam was the first man, you are in trouble as a Christian, in many ways.
2) If you think he could transmit the story of Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 faithfully to the time of Moses over that many generations, like between 38 000 or 43 000 BC to Moses c. 1511 writing the Genesis as a whole book, you have more confidence in oral tradition than I do.
3) What time would you put the Civilisation of Nod?
For me, Adam was created 5200 BC, Seth was born 230 years after that, so Henoch in Nod was arguably founded the same time, soon after Cain killed Abel, in 4970 BC. It lasted up to 2012 years later, at the Flood.
It turned abhorrently evil after pretty few generations.
God had a reason to wipe out even the material traces of it, so the worst we see of the pre-Flood world is cannibalism in country-bumpkins in Atapuerca or near the Solo river on Java. We have not seen wall paintings or wall carvings from Nod so far, because of that.
However, if there were tens of thousands of years between Adam and the Flood, there must have been some civilisations that were not that bad, and which God therefore didn't wipe out even the traces of.
Where are on your view the traces of Nod like cultures, that were not cursed by Lamech's behaviour?
- Ken Wolgemuth
- Auteur
- Hans-Georg Lundahl, I am glad that you understand the reservoir effect. YECs don't know radiocarbon dating, even the PhDs. I have never seen them show the calibration curve. Dr. Snelling said he did not have room for it in his 1000-page book. I have not studied the archaeology of early man, so have no comments.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Ken Wolgemuth well, among the YECs, I'm "the odd man out" with two more exceptions.
Tas Walker some years ago did a very sketchy one, not much help for archaeology, too large resolution.
Anne Habermehl did a recalibration, not of carbon specifically, but of all "conventional dates" lumped together.
The difference between me and Tas is, he uses the Glacial maximum along with Oard's calculations on when that was as anchor point, I use archaeology of events related to (usually) the Bible.
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