Debating CMI's video with Roger M Pearlman

HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS: Debating CMI's video with Roger M Pearlman · Creation vs. Evolution: Carbon 14 Speeds for Diverse Creationist Scenarios · Ice Age Maximum, 500 After the Flood? · Flood to Genesis 14, Roman Martyrology's Chronology, Two Scenarios (Technical) · What Am I Doing with "How Much Faster" Calculations?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

How many here disagree with CMI, and consider Neanderthals were pre-Flood men?
For context:

Neanderthals & Cavemen?
5th of Aug 2021 | Creation Ministries International
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFf9nwmEN7Q

Roger M Pearlman

we (Pearlman YeC series) agree they are post global flood 'Mabul', as the caves they are associated with formed due to that epoch. The ice ages setting in cause and effect due to the Mabul.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• 1) no real indication I know of that Neanderthals were in ice age
• 2) I think caves could also have formed in creation week, as land got up, and that in some cases caves could have formed around manmade structures made by Neanderthals (not when they made hashtags in cave ...)

Roger M Pearlman

either way i suspect many of those prior to the global flood were a lot more like Neanderthal in features than modern man, due to longevity, greater size (mass)..

Hans-Georg Lundahl

We have Neanderthals and modern man coliving in carbon dated 45 000 to 40 000 BP in Europe.

Neanderthals are different from Cro-Magnons in genes, not just in gene expression due to longevity.

I take Neanderthals to be pre-Flood, because:

• no time for them to develop separate features after Flood and then disappear before 40 000 BP in carbon dates
• some Neanderthals, from dental calculus, were vegetarians, and some ate both woolly rhino and men (like before the Flood vegetarian diet was standard for just men, and cannibalism seems to be one candidate for what sins drew down God's anger - especially if marginal cannibalism in some rough living people was one of the milder sins, with even worse ones in Henoch in Nod)
• the parts of the genome surviving in us exclude both mitochondriae and Y-chromosomes, suggesting passing through a bottle-neck with only métis - on board the Ark, for instance.

Also, hashtags suggest that Neanderthals were capable of symbolic expression, but no cave paintings from them suggests, any paintings they may have made got washed out by the Flood, not so with carving for instance a hashtag.

Answered twice

by Roger M Pearlman, leading me to two threads, a and b

a

Roger M Pearlman

Yes, key would be if they are from, or before, 'genetic bottleneck Adam', aka Noach''

was there enough genetic material to test for that and have Neanderthal been tested for that?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roger M Pearlman It has been tested that the Y chromosomes are deviant from "modern" man, that is from post-Flood man.

b

Roger M Pearlman

In the 350 years from the 1656 Mabul global flood till the founding of Egypt just after the passing of Noach, the population went from 8 to x. 70 main family groups that began to disperse from Bavel at the approx end of The ice ages in 1996 when Abraham 48 +1948 =1996

x =50 k?

Keep in mind 'founder effect' that allowed rapid speciation and adaptation early off the ark.

Also how longevity can be a factor in features.

if 5% of modern human genetic info is linked to Neanderthal, Neanderthal may be from one of the 3 daughters in law of Noach, or a grandson like Cain.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roger M Pearlman "In the 350 years from the 1656 Mabul global flood till the founding of Egypt just after the passing of Noach,"

I agree only that there was a global Flood and that Noah died 350 years after it. Egypt was founded way later, Babel was begun after passing of Noah and ended at birth of Peleg 401 after Flood (or little before that), while Egypt's founder Narmer and Abraham lived about half a millennium later even than that.

"the population went from 8 to x. 70 main family groups that began to disperse from Bavel at the approx end of The ice ages in 1996 when Abraham 48 +1948 =1996"

The ice age ended c. 350 after Flood, at Younger Dryas, just before Babel. But this was more than 650 years before Abraham was born.

"x =50 k?"

It could have been way more than that.

Google Creation vs. Evolution and "Holy Koolaid Pretended Flood to Sodom Chronology Excludes a Sodom or Gomorrah of Half a Million People" (FB has inserted an automatised spam mark for the blog!)

"Keep in mind 'founder effect' that allowed rapid speciation and adaptation early off the ark."

The founder effect would have had more time to differentiate Neanderthals and Denisovans the 2242 years before the Flood.

Especially as they are, at most recent carbon dated 40 000 BP (there are Neanderthal culture indicators in a Cave in Gibraltar more recent, but without the actual physical remains of Neanderthal people there), and 350 after Flood we have a carbon date of 9600 BC (earliest layers of Göbekli Tepe).

"Also how longevity can be a factor in features."

Now, the fact is, Neanderthals and Denisovans have distinctions in genes, as tested by Svante Pääbo.

"if 5% of modern human genetic info is linked to Neanderthal, Neanderthal may be from one of the 3 daughters in law of Noach, or a grandson like Cain."

What do you mean like a "grandson like Cain"?

If 60 % of Neanderthal genes survive, and in each human who is not African gives about 4 % of his genome, pure Neanderthals may have been ancestral TO a daughter in law of Noah.

Roger M Pearlman And one more thing ... Neanderthals and Denisovans both disappeared after same carbon year, 40 000 BP, so presumably after same actual year too - why the big extinction, if not the Flood?

Both were present in very large areas.

Roger M Pearlman

Hans-Georg Lundahl while i have not researched the Neanderthal issue, and would need to know exactly how defined and how much empirical examples (remains.. test results) i am sure we disagree on the timing of Abraham and the founding of Egypt, I have z 1657 founding of Gobekli Tepe at the start of The ice ages. 40k YA consensus is toward the end of the Ice ages and early Abraham.

So assuming they have the relative dating correct Neanderthal till at least the approx. birth f Abraham.

Ur founded about 200 years after The Mabul, and almost 100 years pre Abraham.

Abraham studied 20 years under/with Noach.

The start of the dispersion from Bavel was 1996.

Sodom founded that very year.

Noach passed on 2006.

Mizrayim was a good deal older than Abraham.

Sodom destroyed in 2047, well after Abraham visited Egypt in 2024.

we can respectfully agree to disagree.

I did not have time to fairly study your comments enough to know exactly what else we can agree on, once i take them all into account.

I am working on the SPIRAL YeC cosmology model, good week, rm

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roger M Pearlman "Mizrayim was a good deal older than Abraham."

As disagreeing respectfully, I'd say he was long dead before Abraham was born, and he was NOT the first pharao.

"Sodom destroyed in 2047, well after Abraham visited Egypt in 2024."

You put Abraham's defense of Sodom when, Genesis 14? I put it c. 19 years before he was visited by three angels, since 20 years before birth of Isaac. But there is a leeway from anywhere between voyage to Egypt, when he was 75 to birth of Ishmael, when he was 86.

"1657 founding of Gobekli Tepe at the start of The ice ages. 40k YA consensus is toward the end of the Ice ages and early Abraham."

Respectfully, you have a carbon dating problem.

40 000 BP is sometimes carbon dated, and presumes an original pmC value of little above 1 pmC.

Göbekli Tepe is carbon dated, from charcoals lower and higher than the levels of stamped earth buildings. It's earliest date is 9600 BC, presuming an original value of little above 40 pmC, it's latest one is 8600 BC, presuming an original value of a little below 50 pmC.

Your best argument would be that 40 000 BP would be towards the end of the whole range of dates for ice ages, but the problem is, those not carbon dated don't squeeze in on the same scale.

"i have not researched the Neanderthal issue"

Thank you for the candour. Best wishes for your week too!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roger M Pearlman Wait, is this your position?

"40k YA consensus is toward the end of the Ice ages and early Abraham."

It doesn't much matter if you put the life of Abraham in your or in my chronology, but the fact is, between his birth and Genesis 14, there is between 75 and 86 years.

Now, Genesis 14 mainly involves Sodom, but also Asason Tamar, aka En Geddi.

For the Mesopotamian attack on Amorrheans of En Geddi, we do have a carbon date, since reed mats from evacuation of En Geddi with temple treasures carbon date to 3500 BC. On my view, that is minus the date 1935 BC, so 1565 extra years.

Extra years going down from 35 000 to 1565 correspond to carbon 14 proportions in atmosphere going up from 1.45 pmC to 82.753 pmC.

In c. 80 years. In 80 years, the normal decay rate is down to 99.037 % of previous level, and therefore the replacement rate is 0.963 pmC.

82.753 - 1.45 (I don't even bother to bring this down to 99.037 % of itself) is a replacement rate of 81.303 pmC in 80 years or 84.427 times as quick production of C14 as now is normal.

My highest ratio is of 10 - 11 times as quick. It has a bearing on how much radiation hit earth and therefore if one could survive it or not.