With Ivan Shiek on Continuity of Church and Accusations against the Catholic one (Ten Commandments and Accusation ag. Papacy)

With Ivan Shiek on Continuity of Church and Accusations against the Catholic one (Ten Commandments and Accusation ag. Papacy) · With Ivan Shiek and Glenda Badger on Continuity of the Church · Continuing with Ivan Shiek · Ending with Ivan Shiek and Timothy Bradley

Ivan Shiek

15 décembre, 16:27

(Subthread I)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You know, I thought this group was about Kent Hovind vs Evolution, not about his friend Jack Chick vs Catholicism.

Ivan Shiek

All Christians are like-minded.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Kent Hovind is on a subject Christian, namely in being against Evolution.

Jack Chick is on a subject un-Christian, in being against Catholicism.

Ivan Shiek

No, Catholicism in un-Christian. You do not even go by the name "Christian", you go by "Catholic".

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Among whom ....?

Ivan Shiek

Among the Lord.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Er, no.

The Lord has said he doesn't consider certain adherent of Judaism, persecuting Catholics, to be Jews.

Were you confusing Jews with Catholics, or were you confusing yourself with the Lord?

Ivan Shiek

Nope, no confusion. The Lord hates the Catholic materialism and idol worship. That is plainly known to those that read their Bible and obey it.

Joseph Lynch

Catholicism=harlot of revelation 17

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Ivan Shiek, Joseph Lynch, would you mind proving the allegations?

Joseph Lynch

Read the bible, look at history and today and use your common sense. Those who don't want to see will remain blind.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am at least as familiar with the Bible, I think, and more familar with History than you.

As for Common Sense, I don't think hearing just one side's version is showing very much of it.

My mother was told that Albigensians were basically Evangelical Christians, I found out otherwise.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Also, while I was Lutheran, no "John Foxe" and "Book of Martyrs" was our common fare.

Some people will not mistake exaggerations and heroisation from centuries distance over a partisan hatred against contemporaries as excellent historiography.

Joseph Lynch

As I said, those who don't want to see, won't.

Ivan Shiek

Hans-Georg Lundahl, my dislike of the Catholic Church is not founded on another denomination's view. It is founded on what Christ said. It is founded on the Ten Commandments.

Those that do not follow the Ten Commandments, are heretics.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, I suppose you could be referring to what we Catholics often consider as OT liturgic parts of the three first commandments.

1st Commandment prohibits idolatry in the large sense, and has as a liturgic part a prohibition of imagery, valid up to Incarnation of God. The prohibition of imagery was explicitated in the lines after initial one.

2nd Commandment prohibits misuse of God's name, and has as liturgic part, not the pronunciation of the Trinitarian name, but the non-pronunciation (except for Cohen Gadol) of the Tetragrammaton one. The pronunciation of the "God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" liturgically took over when Christ revealed the Baptismal formula to the Apostles.

3rd Commandment commands working on the Lord's day, and explicitates the liturgic part as "seventh day" (i e of the week starting on Sunday), which was validly the Lord's day up to when Resurrection and Pentecost made Sunday the new Lord's day.

You have a little problem, since prior to reformation (or a bit before, but briefly, Petrobrussians) (or a bit before even that, less briefly and more bloody, Iconoclasm in Eastern Empire, which was also ended before Reformation), there were no Christians explicitly attacking Christians using images.

Prior to JW, no one was saying among Christians "you must use the Tetragrammaton as the most holy name".

Prior to 7th Day Adventism, perhaps before that a few other sabbatarian sects, no one was saying among Christians one had to use the Saturday Sabbath as if the Old Testament was still valid.

This means, your view of Orthodoxy would contradict Matthew 28:18-20.

Ivan Shiek

Hans-Georg Lundahl, you don't understand, I do not kneel to Baal.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I don't know what "kneeling to Baal" has to do with Catholicism.

If you mean there is such and such a cabale in the Vatican who are secretly kneeling to Baal, that is not Catholicism, they are infiltrators who should be, at best, exposed and opposed.

But if you meant sth else, as in Catholic view of commandments constituting such a crime, well, where are the "seven thousand men in Israel who did not bend their knee to Baal"?

You need them for each century of Church history.

Ivan Shiek

2nd Commandment - You shall not use the Lord's name in vain.

Meaning: do not assume His name to do vain things.

His name is Jesus Christ. His followers assume His name and are called "Christians".

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Calling oneself a Christian is not vain, if one is.

Calling oneself a Catholic is not a contradiction of it.

Ivan Shiek

No, taking the name of the Lord and not doing all that He commands is taking it in vain.

If you do not practice His commandments, your faith is in vain.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

It is not in vain if I confess myself as obliged to His commandments.

It is perhaps in vain if my interpretation of what they mean involves a non-existence of the Church for centuries, contrary to His express promise in Matthew 28:18-20.

Or just verse 20.

"[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

This means, for every day from then to now and beyond to Doomsday there was, is and will be someone openly teaching ALL THINGS He commanded.

Where is your sabbatarian or iconoclast from 5th C. AD?

Come on, if you compare what we consider the NT liturgic implications of first three commandments as equivalent of "bowing our knee to Baal", each century, including 5th AD should have its seventhousand men who didn't.

Ivan Shiek

Yes, and they all should equal the 144,000 virgins mentioned in Revelation.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I did not ask where you find the 7000 men in Apocalypse, I was asking where you found them for 5th C. AD in history.

Ivan Shiek

Only Christ knows who they are. They will be revealed on the last day.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

owch .... you just contradicted Christ:

"You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid."
[Matthew 5:14]

Ivan Shiek

That is true also. The gift of the Holy Spirit cannot be hid, we are to give as we have received. To forgive our enemies as Christ has forgiven us who were His enemies before.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Well, if the gift of the Holy Spirit is visible for the 5th C. where in the confessions back then do you find it?

Ivan Shiek

What is the 5th C. AD you are referring to?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I can name Catholics in the 5th C whom I consider as showing forth the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You would not count them.

So, whom would you count?

On your criteria, they need to:

* use no images
* use the name JHVH
* worship on the Sabbath.

5th C. AD is the years 401-500 Anno Domini.

Ivan Shiek

Just throwing this into the mix;

Idolatry: occurs when you look down at the fruit of your own labor, the statue that you carved yourself, and you worship it.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/idolatry?s=t

[Bluff, when I checked it said - on the real page, not the one he gave:
noun, plural idolatries.
1. the religious worship of idols.
2. excessive or blind adoration, reverence, devotion, etc.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[under impression, back then, he had been honest]

Fine.

* The dictionary is not a Bible, nor a Catholic Catechism.
* We do not "worship" statues.
* Supposing you were right, that we do, that would give you a right to disqualify my men, but doesn't produce yours.

Where are they?

I could point to St Augustine of Hippo, died 430, or to St Jerome from Stridon, died 420. I could point to St Simeon Stylites, who died in 459. I could point to St Genevieve, she died early in 6th C, but at a high age and so was alive most of the 5th C I am talking about. She was, by the way, active in promoting the cult of relics : remains of saints from which we expect miracles, as per IV Kings 13:21 or Acts Of Apostles 19:12.

I could point to St Patrick of Armagh who died in 492 or 493, though some historians claim it was rather 460.

I could point to St Germanus of Auxerre under whom he studied as a monk in preparation of receiving episcopal orders and going to Ireland as a missionary.

I could point to St Remigius who, like St Genevieve died in early 6th c. but at a high age.

And like her was involved in establishing the Frankish Kingdom as a Christian one. St Clotilde, a younger contemporary of theirs was even more involved, she was the wife of Clovis, leading up to his baptism.

On your view all of these are disqualified as worshipping statues, right?

So, exactly whom are YOU pointing to?

Also, by Dictionary definitions, Catholics count as Christians.

Ivan Shiek

I point to Christ not men.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Why were you pointing to the dictionary?

When I ask you to point to men fulfilling your criteria for Christians, I am pointing to Christ whose promise tells us we can point to men for fulfilment of the promise.

Joseph Lynch

Romanism is not catholicism. Rev 17 perfectly describes the whore church of the vatican.

Ivan Shiek

Hans-Georg Lundahl, Christ fulfilled the promise. We need not look to anyone else.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:5

Popes claim to be Christ, so yes they do fulfill this prophecy.
*mic drop*

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[Deleted comment in which I gave a directory over Pope Pius XI's documents, here are some more complete ones:

Homilies Speeches Motu Proprio Letters Encyclicals Bulls One Brief Apostolic Letters Apostolic Constitutions and a Biography about him, not by him, in Italian.

Not a trace of any document (including speech in his throne room) in April 30 1922.

As I pointed out in the deleted comment, not a trace in the directory over encyclicals. Nor, in the other ones linked to here. Where the directories had more than one page, I gave what was relevant for 1922.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I do however find this quote in an accusation by Shaun Willcock :

// Pius XI, on 30 April 1922, in the Vatican throne room, said: "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on the earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on the earth." //

The accusation is the less credible in so far as it says also:

// The Roman Catholic theologian, Thomas Aquinas, said: "There is no difference between the Pope and Jesus Christ." //

Also, not a link to any known passage from St Thomas Aquinas anywhere on the web, just a bland accusation.

// The Canon Law in the Gloss on the Extravaganza of John XXII, AD 1316-1334, calls the Roman pontiff "Our Lord God the Pope." And this was continued in all editions of the Canon Law up to AD 1612. //

And would you mind to tell me where you find in any body of canon law a "Gloss on the Extravaganza of John XXII"?

So, instead of showing your Church, where it was in the 5th C., you prefer accusing mine with false accusations.

Was it joy which could not be hidden if present in a heart ... you seem to be good at hiding your joy!