jeudi 19 janvier 2017

Comparing with Gerardus D. Bouw Ph. D., Debating with Roger M Pearlman on Chronology

Creation vs. Evolution : 1) C14 Calibrations, comparing two preliminary ones, mine and Tas Walker's · 2) Radioactive Methods Revisited, Especially C-14 · 3) What Some of You are Thinking / Ce que certains de vous sont en train de penser · Great Bishop of Geneva! : 4) Carbon Dating of Turin Shroud and Hacking and Conventional vs Creationist Dating · Creation vs. Evolution : 5) A Fault in my Tables? A Plan for Improvement? · 6) Pre-Flood Biomass and More · 7) Advantages of a Shorter Carbon 14 Chronology · 8) Hasn't Carbon 14 been Confirmatively Calibrated for Ages Beyond Biblical Chronology? By Tree Rings? · HGL's F.B. writings : 9) Comparing with Gerardus D. Bouw Ph. D., Debating with Roger M Pearlman on Chronology · 10) Continuing with Pearlman, Especially on Göbekli Tepe and Dating of Ice Age

I have already published a post where my readers can learn that both I and Tas Walker have made attempts of recalibrating C14 dates to real time, as in Biblical Chronology. There is actually another table in the field, Gerardus D. Bouw's. It was presented me by my friend A.j.Kukoleck, as follows, and led to certain comments on FB, involving both my comparison with Bouw's recalibration and my comparison with someone else who was basing his chronology on the Jewish calendar's Anno Mundi. He's Roger M Pearlman.

Here is our exchange:

A.j. Kukoleck
here you go hans. now you can correct the c14 ages :)

TECHIES' CORNER : Converting Published C14 Ages to the Biblical Time Scale
Gerardus D. Bouw, Ph.D.

Roger M Pearlman
shared to RCCF group

Hans-Georg Lundahl
OK, not bad.

I have about same "carbon age" for Flood year, but more like 2957 BC.

On the other hand, his table is more complete in values than mine is.

Here I present mine, along Tas Walker's:

Creation vs. Evolution : C14 Calibrations, comparing two preliminary ones, mine and Tas Walker's

I spot a problem, if we suppose Exodus was in 1510 BC.

1530 BC was twenty years before Exodus, Moses midway through desert exile.

And 1530 = 3530 years ago.

4,000 3,530 1,530

Published age 4000 years ago. Would published age 2000 BC give any good anchorage for Exodus?

I think just before Hyksos is better.

10,000 4,159 2,159 [- Göbekli Tepe]
35,000 4,345 2,345 (flood year)


Göbekli Tepe 187 years after Flood, all of palaeolithic stone age within these ... except for what is pre-Flood.

Will he take Göbekli Tepe or Ziggurat of Ur as Tower of Babel?

Wait, got one here:**

"He lived a total of two hundred thirty-nine years. Charting this on the Biblical Timeline, Peleg’s existence is from 2247 BC to 2008 BC."

So, yes, here Bouw's and KJV based chronology for Peleg also*** support Göbekli Tepe being Tower of Babel.

So, no actually this was not a problem.

Roger M Pearlman
Exodus was 2448 AM, it is 5777 AM 5777-2448 = 3329

3329 -2017 =
1510-1312 = Hi Hans-Georg you overstate years ago by close to 200 years.
see RCCF and Abraham until the Exodus for the actuality and calibrated for the science using the max available context.

Gobeki (in turkey) founded about 1657 AM
Tower of Bavel started about 300 years later and abandoned 1996 AM in a place not to far from Ur
so not close to each other

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I am believing the Roman Catholic chronology of Christmas Liturgy (I could also believe a Vulgate based, closer to Ussher's, as a Catholic, the Church hasn't decided).

Exodus was in 1510 BC = 3689 AM.

"Tower of Bavel started about 300 years later and abandoned 1996 AM in a place not to far from Ur"

Both the Ziggurat and the GT are each near a city called Ur.

The Ziggurat is near Woolley's Ur.

Göbekli Tepe is near Ur-fa, a k a Edessa.

I specifically checked by equating Shinar = Mesopotamia and seeing that while Urfa and GT are in Turkey, not Iraq, they are still east of Euphrates and West of Tigris and so in Shinar.

You say Ur = T o B?

[I meant Ziggurat of Ur, but wrote in haste, confer the rest]

Somewhat irrealistic on Bouw's timeline.

5,500 3,865 1,864
6,000 3,925 1,925

Both being after death of Peleg in the KJV chronology.

Göbekli Tepe will do, the Ziggurat of Ur won't, in Bouw's chronology.

Roger M Pearlman
Hans-Georg Lundahl Hi Hans, you are welcome to believe whatever you want.
RCCF provides the actuality based on valid science and scriptural testimony taken in max avail. context.
5777 AM years to date.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"and scriptural testimony" - mistakenly using Masoretic or KJV.

"5777 AM years to date" - that is a Jewish and abridged chronology.

It seems it was deliberately contrived to make 70 weeks of Daniel match Bar Kochba instead of Our Lord.

Roger M Pearlman
Hi Hans, I did not say Ur = Migdal Bavel, but they are near each other (w/in a 100 +/- miles is reasonable w/o looking at the map and I would have to see which sites are candidates / look at the detailed evidence.

Hans no one is forcing you to use 5777 AM, but if you want to lknow/use the accurate timeline w/o the fudge that is it.
it is the inflated/fudged year count to fit your presumption.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I did not say "Ur", I said "Ziggurat of Ur".

[Except one hasty approximated remark.]

I find the other Ur, Urfa in Shinar / East Anatolia more promising chronologically.

AND GT looks more like what I think T o B was about.

A tower "so tall that" its top reach the sky? No.
A tower the top of which can reach into heaven? Yes.

Rocket, not skyscraper, was the project.

Roger M Pearlman
anyway I am not interested in debating that issue I am sure of and wrote the book° on.
if you sincerely want to learn the truth and are open minded / able to handle, ask me nicely and I will try and correspond w/ you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"but if you want to lknow/use the accurate timeline w/o the fudge that is it."

I'd not quite agree, no.

Oh, you wrote the book°?

Well, I wrote another translation c14 to real time, hello colleague and rival!

* RCCF = The Receent Complex Creation Framework

** I omitted link from debate, here it is:

Amazing Bible Timeline with World History : Peleg: biblical figure, ‘when the earth was divided’

With Back up:

*** As did my own research.

° His book is called : Abraham until the Exodus
how, why to calibrate for the tighter 5,777 AM to date age of the universe.

2 commentaires:

  1. Nice Hans.
    we are not that far apart.
    what is a couple hundred years among friends? :)
    I will post the links to my books below.
    so you hold pain of Shinar is in modern day Turkey? or Syria?
    whereas I would hold closer to UR-Kasdim
    in Abraham until the Exodus I attribute another purpose for Gobkeii
    Like · Reply · Just now · Edited

    Roger M Pearlman 'The Moshe Emes' Torah and Science alignment series:

    The Torah Discovery Chronology: 'Abraham until the Exodus'

    'Distant Starlight and the Age, Formation and Structure of the Universe'


    'The Recent Complex Creation Framework' six principles for science in maximum available context::

  2. Hello, Roger M Pearlman!

    I was going to take this a few round more on FB before making another post on this, but we can take it here too, as comments continue the actual post.

    "so you hold pain of Shinar is in modern day Turkey? or Syria?"

    BOTH. AND Iraq (with a few exceptions SW and SE)

    Plain of Shinar = Mesopotamia.
    Mesopotamia = between Euphrates and Tigris.

    Northern parts of Euphrates go in Turkey or even past.

    "whereas I would hold closer to UR-Kasdim"

    Both Urfa near Göbekli Tepe (Göbekli Tepe (pronounced [ɟøbekˈli teˈpe][2]) "Potbelly Hill"[3] in Turkish, is an archaeological site atop a mountain ridge in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of modern-day Turkey, approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa, and Şanlıurfa = Şanlı Urfa, venerable Urfa) and Woolley's Ur, further south, obviously, have the name Ur (in some old language Urfa is actually Ur-Fa). Before Woolley discovered that other Ur, it was Urfa in Turkey, Edessa, which was considered as Ur-Kasdim by both Jewish and Muslim traditions - probably, but that I don't know, by some Oriental Christian ones too.

    "I attribute another purpose for Gobkeii"

    Someone has mentioned that the stone slabs look like a launching ramp.

    That (but nothing in Woolley's Ur or its Ziggurat that I know of) fits in with a rocket interpretation of T o B.

    Note that Catholic Church Fathers - my authority next to the Bible - have not settled that T o B was a skyscraper. In St Thomas' Postilla to the book of Genesis (a disputed work, I think it is early and he was still learning Latin, he is using "ille" like "il"="the", which is faulty with Classical standards) it seems the opinions were divided on whether the words refer to what we call a skyscraper or to what we call a skyline.

    But note that rockets are towers of which only the top reaches into heaven.

    Göbekli fits rocketry better than Ziggurat would do.

    As for your books, I'll freely share the links, but to the second I will only add that my solution to "distant starlight" is that what we know call stars to exclusion of planets, meteors and comets, i e what used to be called fix stars, are one light day away.

    Being geocentric, I can interpret the phenomenon of Bessel discovered in 1838 - the one which is famously 0.75 c. arc seconds for Proxima alphae Centauri - as NOT being parallactic, but a dance of angelic movers (in time with the sun, but not in pace with the sun's dance around the ecliptic each year) and therefore as not implying alpha Centauri is "4 lightyears away".

    This reduces the distant starlight problem to a non-problem. And that means, the larger technicalities on dating game are concerned with purely terrestrial things, like dendro, stratigraphy, carbon 14 and other radiometric.