samedi 16 janvier 2016

Catholic and Lutheran (or neither) declaration of ... sth like Apostasy

Oh dear.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Catholic Herald : Catholics asked to thank God for the ‘insights’ of the Reformation
by David V Barrett, posted Friday, 15 Jan 2016

Ruari McCallion
I haven't read the article but the insight into the sale of indulgences was indisputably valuable!

I think it's fair to say that without the Reformation we'd not have had Trent, the Counter-Reformation, the Jesuits, attacks on nepotism and simony, clampdowns on indulgence-selling, improved training for priests... So, yes, disastrous in terms of being a split in Christendom and the wars that followed, but not a cloud without silver linings.

HGL (me, as you know) to Ruari
"the insight into the sale of indulgences was indisputably valuable!"

Was it?

Was there, first of all, any "sale" of indulgences? Tetzel could not "sell" an indulgence and pocket the money, he could of course probably use some to simply survive with some decency, but he was a friar, a "beggar monk" as they are called in Swedish and German. So was Luther, btw.

Then Julius II and Leo X could not pocket the money either. It was contributions to rebuilding the St Peter's Cathedral. So, an indulgence was given, as usual for a good deed, and that good deed was helping to build St Peter's. I am sure same indulgence was also valid for any building workers who came to build for free - except that the Papacy back then was too Unionist to envisage workers working without wages. So it wasn't offered.

And monetary contributions to Crusades, equal with Crusading as such, were on the decline. There also, Church men could not pocket the money, they had to hand it on to the Crusading military and other activity.

Oh, wait, due to my low fluency in English, I may have misunderstood your irony?

GD, False.

[St ]Ignatius of Loyola lived in a Spain where the main threat of heterodoxy was Alumbrados and Crypto-Jews.

I'd say Luther and Calvin contributed zilch to his holiness.

Many of the first Jesuits - notably St Francis Xaver - were occupied in mission to Heathens not to Protestants. All the while, Protestants were not very active as missionaries (Lutherans in Lapponia perhaps excepted, perhaps Baltics too, where Christianisation was late and partly retarded).

Erasmus was promoting reform and he was not doing so on very Protestant lines, he retained a belief in Seven Sacraments and in Free Will. The Cénacle of Meaux was liturgically somewhat "reformish" and also somewhat bad, but its bishop never went full Protestant, though one member Farel did ("and I met with captain Farrel and his money he was counting" ... certainly not the Reformer, but very possibly one of his posterity after Louis XIV expelled them) while another member went Jesuit.

And I could go on.

Ruari McCallion
Yes, there were sales of indulgences. It had become quite a scandal during Luther ' s time.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
No, the so called "sales" were not such.

It is not my fault you have a bad grasp of Reformation history.

Ruari, it was the prayers that made me wince.

Ruari McCallion
Having read it, it seems mostly a Lutheran idea for joint celebrations. So, far from being an imposition.

[Mostly Lutheran? No, a joint declaration.]

I note that Rorate Caeli is against it. So it can't be all bad... [smiley with twinkle]

OK - every heretical movement draws the Church's attention to matters that need clarification, and brings about development of doctrine. The actual reform, of course, happened at the Counter-Reformation.

Nice one on Rorate Caeli, Ruari.

Never! lol


Ruari McCallion
Mornington Crescent.

[I first thought he had written "morning crescent" and referred to the bakery, but that was the Turks who provoked it by the siege of Vienna in 1529, not the Reformers - but I have no idea what Mornington Crescent is, so I can't reply to what he really said, here]

The reformation was a Disaster.....full stop.!!!.......Can anyone justify the splitting asunder of Christendom?

Oh, but it brought about such good things...erm.....

Insights of the Reformation .... like insight of Tyrants wanting excuses to plunder monasteries and to divorce and remarry and not stopping at theological mayhem?

Or clerics being there, sometimes before it happens, to cheer them on?

Or Catholics being caught in APPARENT conflicts of duty and siding with Apostasy?

Well, these are perhaps insights we need to meditate on.

Any sign that anyone meant something else by the words?

and came back.

Yes, I saw one [sign that someone etc.]. The words were those of Bergoglio.

[I was wrong, I just saw a photo of Bergoglio. He might not yet make them his, these words.]

And another one: it was a joint declaration.

[This was not wrong.]

Liturgic prayer and readings, when commenting:

// the many guiding theological and spiritual insights that we have all received through the Reformation. //

Any insight which was common to both sides?

// Thanks be to you for the good transformations and reforms that were set in motion by the Reformation or by struggling with its challenges. //

The Pietism (if one may call it so) of Counter Reformation Catholicism was NOT set in motion by the Reformation. St Ignatius was a Pietist well before he knew there were any Protestants to challenge, and the Protestants of the time were anything BUT Pietist.

The later Pietism within Protestantism has more to do with Protestants Protesting against original Protestants, without knowing it. And sometimes getting called Papist of Crypto-Papist over that.

// Thanks be to you for the proclamation of the gospel that occurred during the Reformation //

Is Reformation purely temporal, like Catholics proclaiming Gospel during the time they were persecuted for it?

// “In the 16th century, Catholics and Lutherans frequently not only misunderstood but also exaggerated and caricatured their opponents in order to make them look ridiculous. They repeatedly violated the eighth commandment, which prohibits bearing false witness against one’s neighbour.” //

What Catholic did so?

If none is named, is this not breaking the 8th about Catholics of that time?

CSL may from time to time have promoted sth like this, but there he relied on not very reliable Anglican clergy.

Link in status in its turn linked to:

Important - Lutheran World Federation, Pontifical Council for Christian Unity launch "Common Prayer" service extolling Martin Luther and the Reformation
UPDATE: A note on where to find the text of the "Common Prayer", and the letter co-signed by Cardinal Koch promoting it.
Originally published 1/14/16 at 1:54 PM GMT

with the words:

// Rorate Caeli, the traditionalist site, criticised the Common Prayer, saying it was the “first time that the drive for Catholic-Lutheran union and the glorification of the Reformation has taken a quasi-liturgical shape”. //

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