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I was trying to respond to Craig Crawford.

I was giving the following answer and pretyping it on a notepad before posting:

"So this was no ordinary obscure birth, but all of Judaea was abuzz. Obviously the miraculous birth of the Christ did not go without notice, and was not forgotten, especially by His mother the Theotokos! The knowledge of the date of Chirst's birth was preserved and passed down by the Church."

I agree, but the date is still from tradition, not directly from the Bible.

St, Ambrose; "Zacharias seems here to be designated High Priest, because into the second tabernacle went the High Priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and the sins of the people."

Note, seems. It does not stand in the text itself, and St Ambrose basically admits that.

"Here it is in your native tongue:"

French is not that. I was bilingual in Swedish and German from smallest childhood, or perhaps German starting one year later, learnt English from age 9 (or a few months before) and French from age 13.

I find it disruptive during Lent to have to deal with English speakers who presume my English is deficient because I have some quirks of usage they would not make, and then also presume my French is better, while French in their turn presumes my French is deficient and one volunteered to speak to me in German instead. While my German really is deficient by now, somewhat, since I have not spoken it since 11 years and 6 months except on very few occasions or short durations.

"Here is an excerpt from a machine translation from the French."

Beware of machine translations.

Do you have the text in English at all?

"And by where will we be ensured of this time? by the divine Writings, by consulting the Evangile saint who says that Zacharie was in the Holy of Holies, when the angel announced the happy news to him, and the birth of Jean predicts to him."

In the text Douay Rheims offers, it does not say "holy of holies" in so many words.

Exodus 26:34 has "holy of holies", in LXX it says ἐν τῷ ἁγίῳ τῶν ἁγίων.

In St Luke (edition Nestle Aland 28) we find ὤφθη δὲ αὐτῷ ἄγγελος κυρίου ἑστὼς ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου τοῦ θυμιάματος, but we do not find ἐν τῷ ἁγίῳ τῶν ἁγίων.

I am not saying St John Chrysostom need have been wrong, it could be he had another text and it could be he had access to sacerdotal (cohanic) tradition that the altar of incense was inside the holy of holies. This is however not saying he could deduce this from the text as such itself, without such information - unless of course there is a passage in the Torah stating so, which I am unaware of, or stating incense was only used on Day of Atonement.

I am not a Jew, I have not been circumcised, nor made a Bar Mitsva, it could be I missed a passage in the law which implies this about the text we have in St Luke.

If the liturgic text you use in Greek liturgy says ἐν τῷ ἁγίῳ τῶν ἁγίων that is another matter. If all the fathers (which is a few more than the ones you cited, but even so) read that, that would normally be the correct text.

Then this happened:



Was there anything I would have added after the above comment, if I hadn't been blocked? Yes. But that would at the length of comments and at the speed of internet debates not have been avoided anyway if I had typed each word individually in the combox. In some debates, there is always sth to add.

Added after trying in vain to post above as an answer:

"When Zacharie made its function of priest in front of God in the row of his family, the fate decided, according to payments' of priesthood, that it would enter the temple of the Lord for y (178) to offer the perfumes. All the multitude of the people was outside, making his prayer per hour that the perfumes were offered. (Luc, I, 5,10.) You, my brothers recall, the passage which says: That no man is not in the gate vault of testimony, when the pontiff enters the Holy of Holies in order to request, until it left there. (Lév. I, 17.)"

It so happens, Leviticus I 17 refers to a holocaust of an animal victim, while Luke I clearly refers to a sacrifice of incense.

"[17] And he shall break the pinions thereof, and shall not cut, nor divide it with a knife, and shall burn it upon the altar, putting fire under the wood. It is a holocaust and oblation of most sweet savour to the Lord."

"[9] According to the custom of the priestly office, it was his lot to offer incense, going into the temple of the Lord. [10] And all the multitude of the people was praying without, at the hour of incense. [11] And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord, standing on the right side of the altar of incense."

A holocaust and an incense offering are two different things.

Well, I was after all ...

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This happened when I tried to wish Blessed Lent to a friend:

Still Censored (for Fast Typing?)

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FB today:





Or, perhaps not quite the case, it showed ...

Silvia Elizabeth Palacios

There is a G-D in Heaven Watching and taking note.

Diego Miranda

Nah, there's no god.

Silvia Elizabeth Palacios

The Holy ONE Of Israel!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Who might not appreciate Zionism ...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Who might not appreciate Zionism ...

The first publication showed only after I had pushed "try again" ...

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Yes, by its stupidity!



My comment, which is visible, was on the point, since the meme I commented under showed a parodic "Sola Scriptura" guy who concluded from Koalas not being mentioned in the Bible that "Australia is Unbiblical".

Nevertheless, I was blocked, for having commented too fast, or because some other comments previous to that had been made too fast.

If it was this one, I was typing fast.

If it was some previous ones, I prepared the comment on a notepad, in some length, with good both taking time to write exactly what I wanted to say and overview over what I was saying (better than on the combox space provided on facebook) and then copy pasted it into the combox and quickly published comment.

Either way, some evil mind has determined that spam and hasty comments can be reduced by a software that determines whether one spent enough time on editing a comment before one published it.

Such a block could theoretically have some function with teens. I am fifty, and not the only FB user my age, and such things are not likely to actually make us change habits, nor should one change good habits like typing fast or editing long comments on notepads before publishing in combox, it is only useful to add irritation to some users.

If it is not just the awful bottomless stupidity of trusting a software to determine how much time a man should spend on a comment before publishing it, what is it?

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St. Phocas, Martyr
at Antioch
5.III.2019

Antiochiae natalis sancti Phocae Martyris, qui, post multas, quas pro nomine Redemptoris passus est, injurias, qualiter de antiquo illo serpente triumphaverit, hodie quoque populis eo miraculo declaratur, quod, si quispiam a serpente morsus fuerit, hic, ut januam Basilicae Martyris credens attigerit, confestim, evacuata veneni virtute, sanatur.

Update:

I had no problems commenting under a few other ones, though not on persons' walls, so far, so, I begin to wonder whether it was that friend (?) who had used a blocking device for that feature?

Because, on same wall, this:



Update II:

Same under the wall of Tom Trinko, the writer of Conversations about the obvious:



Here the text of my comment is not visible, I show it here, from notepad:

Bibles certainly did exist then, if only virtually, since the scrolls were too cumbrous to have all Tanakh on one.

The Church certainly did have basically the same Bible as Biblia Hebraica, except mostly LXX version.

Saying "the Church started out without a Bible" is claiming Catholics are Albigensians (without OT).

However, what is true is She started out without a complete Bible and we have one such because the Church (in Apostolic times) very literally added to the Bible.

A better approach against Sola Scriptura is, OT in many cases proves Our Lord only via a specific OT exegesis which Christ taught the apostles and which only in very small part was written down in NT, as in Matthew early chapters.

As I noted here:

https://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.com/2019/02/in-answer-to-rabbi-skobac.html

However, a bit earlier I had no problem commenting, also on Tom Trinko's page:



So, either both the other guy and Tom Trinko manually blocked me, or there is some monkey business over at my internet provider.

Update III:

Now it is involving also my dialogue with Craig Crawford:





Update IV, some days later:



The underlined words "en allant trop vite" mean "typing too fast" basically./HGL

On marital age

MC

shared

MTV needs to stop doing TV shows like 16 & Pregnant & start doing shows like 18 & Graduate & 21 and successful

HGL

16 and pregnant is not a problem - if there is a husband, 16 or otherwise, who can be a breadwinner.

MC

Hans do you have any daughters friend.....this is a seminal change in perspective.

KK

trash

HGL

I have neither sons nor daughters, people who have been so concerned about my sometime interest in girls under 18 have contributed to prolonging my celibacy.

But considering "16 and pregnant" a type of problem a husband can't overcome as problem has highly contributed to the culture of abortion, contraception, and pre-marital sex we are all sad about (insofar as we are decent).

"Each episode follows a period in the life of a teenager as she navigates the bumpy terrain of adolescence, growing pains, rebellion and coming of age -- all while dealing with being pregnant."

In absence of husbands capable of properly providing for these teens, perhaps getting attention from that show is one way of dealing with that situation.

Considering some of what I saw on the preview of certain episodes : NOT at all positive that it is a very good one.

Two relationships between parents broken down.

MT

W.T.F.

MC

MT exactly!!!!

ZPD

Hans-Georg Lundahl Being 16 and pregnant, and mentioning a husband who is 16?...is a problem. Both are children trying to raise children. Do these pregnancies occur?...yes, and they need support and more often than not the mother and father do not stay together. If in fact the father is q much older adult, it is rape, regardless of the legal age law. We do not live in biblical times.

Hans-Georg Lundahl Your “sometime interest in girls under 18?” I’d be gravely concerned too. Why that in itself has anything to do with your celibacy is scary.

Hans-Georg Lundahl Are you saying that show is one way to bring the attention of older men to provide for them? If so, all that is doing is taking advantage of their circumstances and in some cases desperation if they don’t have adequate support from their parents unless I misunderstood what you meant.

HGL

ZPD "Both are children "

When you are able, under anatomically normal conditions, not prcocious puberty, to make babies, you are no longer a child.

"Your “sometime interest in girls under 18?” I’d be gravely concerned too. Why that in itself has anything to do with your celibacy is scary."

You mean it's scary how much power women with your Communist indoctrination have been able to exercise by slander?

"Are you saying that show is one way to bring the attention of older men to provide for them?"

Older men or age peers.

Both is OK.

"If so, all that is doing is taking advantage of their circumstances and in some cases desperation if they don’t have adequate support from their parents unless I misunderstood what you meant."

Or from the boyfriend?

Who, under your modern conditions (I live in them too, but I don't solidarise with them!) are impeded from being breadwinners.

Not bc they are children, but bc people like you agree with each other to treat them like that.

ZPD

Hans-Georg Lundahl First I don’t agree, some 12 year olds can have babies. Being able to get pregnant as a “child” doesn’t make her a woman any more than a “boy’s” ability to make a female pregnant makes him a man. That is ludicrous.

Some cultures force young girls to marry men 3 or more times their age. Disgusting.

“Communist indoctrination”?

Sir, children are children, plain a simple, having barely lived a life to know who they are let alone what they want and what love is. If a much older man has the attraction for “children” that is nothing more than a pedophile and if a man has interest to be with even a woman who can be his daughter or younger, that is for sexual gratification and generally her acceptance of him is for financial gain and stability. Both unhealthy motivations.

Hey, I have an idea, teach the young to respect their bodies and at the time of adult maturity choose a partner who they can live their life with and not most likely end up being a nurse or an early widow, raising kids without a father.

HGL

"First I don’t agree, some 12 year olds can have babies."

About half [of them], this means a girl of 12 is not a child.

"Being able to get pregnant as a “child” doesn’t make her a woman any more than a “boy’s” ability to make a female pregnant makes him a man. That is ludicrous."

Biology defining age limits and gender is ludicrous, right?

How LGBTQ are you about the other item?

"Some cultures force young girls to marry men 3 or more times their age. Disgusting."

Forced marriage is disgusting regardless the age relation.

Some girls do, some girls don't find marrying a 3 times older man disgusting, the personal choice should be respected.

FURTHER, you are focussing on the case of the husband and breadwinner being older.

I mentioned both cases.

ZPD

Hans-Georg Lundahl And again your statement that your sometimes interest in “”””” girls”””” under 18 ( when you are 68) has contributed to your celibacy only indicates a twisted view and is surprising if you are a Christ follower and even without that have an decent morals.

If my daughter at 18 or even older was being pursued by a man at 68, he’d know me very well and he wouldn’t like what I had to say to him. It’s perverted on all counts.

HGL

"Sir, children are children, plain a simple, having barely lived a life to know who they are let alone what they want and what love is."

Maam, there are definitely girls and boys you call children, whose hormones shout the opposite to them, till they go wrong. Some do suicide, some sodomy, some murder, and Klebold combined murder and suicide.

He would perhaps have done better if given an opportunity to be a breadwinner, therefore also a husband and father before going to Columbine High that year.

"And again your statement that your sometimes interest in “”””” girls”””” under 18 ( when you are 68) has contributed to your celibacy"

You are reading with hysteric incoherence.

I am 50, I was born 1968.

The girl I am into now is not under 18 (as far as she told me).

The time I was into a girl under 15 I was under 30.

People like you have been tracking me for 20 years to make me submit to your idiotic prejudice before stopping to protect ADULT girls against me.

"It’s perverted on all counts."

I wonder who invented that one? When?

"If a much older man has the attraction for “children” that is nothing more than a pedophile and if a man has interest to be with even a woman who can be his daughter or younger, that is for sexual gratification and generally her acceptance of him is for financial gain and stability. Both unhealthy motivations"

Neither is, within proper limits, an unhealthy motivation.

Your consideration is Puritan, it is forbidding to marry, because you heed doctrines of evil spirits. You are proving we live in the last days.

"Hey, I have an idea, teach the young to respect their bodies and at the time of adult maturity choose a partner who they can live their life with and not most likely end up being a nurse or an early widow, raising kids without a father."

Early widows with children often have no trouble getting stepfathers for them.

Besides, you have insulted more than one good family by your observation, certainly the parents of St Francis of Sales, possibly the Holy Family (according to the version of St. Joseph being an elderly widower), fairly certainly as well the ancestry of king David (reread the book of Ruth) and God knows how many more.

ZPD

Hans-Georg Lundahl Man, in your world 1/2 the population of “children” would be having sex just because they have reached the age of puberty and you forget all of the evil in the world which bombards males with sexual images and temptation and the pressure on young girls to believe they need to be sexy by wearing immodest clothing in or see to be attractive. If that’s not all worldly thinking and driven my the flesh alone I don’t know what is.

How LGBTQ am I about the other item? No idea what you’re talking about. I am called by God to love all people but recognize sin against God.

HGL

PLUS, as I think you live in Illinois, I think you should think some on where it leads to say a pregnant 13 year old is "a child":

https://www.breitbart.com/health/2018/12/31/abortion-leading-cause-of-death-in-2018-with-41-million-killed/

"1/2 the population of “children” would be having sex just because they have reached the age of puberty and you forget all of the evil in the world which bombards males with sexual images and temptation and the pressure on young girls to believe they need to be sexy by wearing immodest clothing in or see to be attractive."

YET another reason to not make marriage inaccessible for young adults.

PLUS I also oppose the kind of juridic or de facto school obligations which expose young students to temptations they would not have in their home's culture.

"I am called by God to love all people but recognize sin against God."

Yes, and it is sin against our Creator to call a man a woman, a woman a man, or an adult a child (as you do).

Or vice versa, as real child molesters do.

ZPD

I correct my calculation of your age but it’s here not there. 30 interested in a 15 year old girl? There is a good reason why people have been tracking you.

Yes, there is definitely elements of perversion in your mind and perversion is real, not some made up idea and you’re right, I do believe “girls” could definitely use protection against you as you sound more like a predator?

What do you think causes you from the age of 30 and even now, want to be with girls or young women and not be interested in women closer to your age?

Without a doubt we don’t agree are MANY levels except that I do believe we are in the last of days and may the Lord have mercy on us.

I also know that abortion is murder but I do not know the statistics of the numbers of abortions that have taken place where the mother is under the age of 18. The fact we have abortions is not because of ages, but because we live in a fallen world.

Do really believe allowing “children” to get married is going to improve ANYTHING? It would only add to the financial strain of raising a family with limited earning capabilities, most likely also increase divorce rates.

Physical maturity and emotional maturely are entirely 2 different things but I am going to discontinue conversing with you as you weren’t even able to answer my simple question regarding your long term age preference.

Perhaps you are unable to look at the truth.

And God chose to bless many in the Bible even when they were sinning but their sin was not without consequences and God’s purposes were within His knowledge of what would bring glory to His Kingdom.

Bless all the children who have to grow up in a sinful world and the adults who are held more accountable for their decisions.

HGL

"30 interested in a 15 year old girl? There is a good reason why people have been tracking you."

No.

"Yes, there is definitely elements of perversion in your mind and perversion is real, not some made up idea and you’re right, I do believe “girls” could definitely use protection against you as you sound more like a predator?"

You know, you are again sounding like believing doctrines of evil spirits. Forbidding marriage. Are you enforcing veganism too?

No, bc the devil can put one part of it here, another part of it there and then if both get mainsrteam, it coalesces.

"What do you think causes you from the age of 30 and even now, want to be with girls or young women and not be interested in women closer to your age?"

Not in women my age? Climacterium.

That bars childbearing.

"Do really believe allowing “children” to get married is going to improve ANYTHING? It would only add to the financial strain of raising a family with limited earning capabilities, most likely also increase divorce rates."

I don't believe in predictions.

Girls are aborting NOW because they are being told "you are a child, you are too young to be a mother, you are too young to marry". Girls were NOT aborting before, when most countries 18 was not the age limit. (First state : Italy, next one for girls : Soviet Union).

"Physical maturity and emotional maturely are entirely 2 different things"

That is accusing our creator of being our tempter, when modern society is.

[Plus it's LGBTQ : it's saying biology is defined by psychology.]

ZPD

Hans-Georg Lundahl I could continue debating with you but it would be foolishness. Being so bent on others agreeing that you be in relationships with girls and not seeing that the desire you have is motivated by the flesh as wrong with no concern for them says a lot right there and I’m believing doctrine of evil spirits? God help you.

HGL

"Being so bent on others agreeing that you be in relationships with girls"

Not "agreeing". Ceasing to actively prevent.

Hence the reference to "forbid marriage". In Timothy.

HGL

added

"Being so bent on others agreeing"

Who has been bent over this discussion? I enunciated a general principle, your attitude brought up bad memories.

You have been taking initiatives to demonise me over this, that or sundry you imagine as you indulge in the divinatory art (perhaps directly aided by evil spirits, probablier simply zealot over doctrines ultimately from them via evil men a few decades ago)

"that you be in relationships with girls"

Relationships? I am looking for marriage.

"and not seeing that the desire you have is motivated by the flesh"

Who the Hell told you it is wrong to seek marriage because one's desire is carnal? That is another doctrine of evil spirits.

"as wrong with no concern for them"

I suppose you meant "is wrong" etc.

What concern I have or have not is perhaps not your concern so long as you indulge in hysteria motivated by your Communist doctrines inspired by Hell.

I respect what you have to say on Otorhinolaryngology, if anything, but you need to read up on Gynaecology and DITCH Psychology.

Believing modern psychology (when it gives you divinatory "insights" as those you have on me) is believing doctrines of evil spirits, besides you are showing forth the Biblical identification of such, by your concern to forbid marriages.

ZPD

I thank God he has allowed this prevention of you being with girls.

I have NO doubt your motivation to be with them is not Godly.

HGL

Oh, you thank "God" for the devil's works?

HGL

MC, I saw you liked her comment, if that's how you feel, no need to be friends.

Checking with Russian on CSL - wiki

Hans-Georg Lundahl

status, sharing link

Could it be, some cultivate misconceptions about our dear author, on purpose?

Check this:

New blog on the kid : How Russians Might be Seeing C. S. Lewis ...
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2019/02/how-russians-might-be-seeing-c-s-lewis.html

Aa Aa

I’m really sorry, but it’s fairly strange to draw conclusions from a poorly translated Wiki page. CS Lewis is very much admired among Russians, he’s one of the not so many non-Orthodox writers whose books you will always find in an Orthodox book shop.

I

Hans-Georg Lundahl Fine, but it seems some of the wikipedians are trying to draw down on that admiration.

I used google translate phrase per phrase since I don't know Russian.

[II]

[Hans-Georg Lundahl]

[Also, are Orthodox all that much into intellectual defense of Christianity?]

[Answers below given in FB under I, not II, so II is put here, since written before these answers, but III and IV were added after the reply by Aa Aa, they go down as real new subthreads.]

Aa Aa

Hans-Georg Lundahl google translate can be very misleading. I’m not a theologian, so I don’t want to take part in a discussion on a subject that is not in my field of competence. If you are really interested in what the Orthodox think of CS Lewis I would advise to read Kallistos Ware’s “C.S. Lewis: an anonymous Orthodox?”.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Your answer is wrong on so many points.

Sorry, I overreacted, three is not "so many".

"google translate can be very misleading."

Much less so if you take it sentence by sentence and even smaller clause by smaller clause, as in phrase by phrase. If someone knows CSL's biography, one can see which bits are covered and which bits are not covered.

In paragraphs leading up to those translated, I found this, you are very free to correct the google translate if it is misleading:

В 1924 он начал преподавать философию в колледже университета.

In 1924 he began teaching philosophy at a university college.

В 1925 был избран членом научного сообщества и начал преподавать английскую литературу в колледже Магдалины, где оставался на протяжении 29 лет, вплоть до 1954 года.

In 1925 he was elected a member of the scientific community and began teaching English literature at Magdalen College, where he remained for 29 years, until 1954.

In other words, his being teacher of philosophy for one year is NOT brought in as anything other than a piece of biography. That is had enormous importance for his eventual (involuntary) conversion to Theism (one year before that to Christianity) is not covered.

"I’m not a theologian, so I don’t want to take part in a discussion on a subject that is not in my field of competence."

Where was theology as such even brought in?

C. S. Lewis, you might be interested to know, was also not a theologian, and he did not share your "competentialist" prejudice on the matter.

The fact is : C. S. Lewis was highly intellectual.

The other fact is : this is not shown at all for C. S. Lewis' Christianity in the article.

"If you are really interested in what the Orthodox think of CS Lewis I would advise to read Kallistos Ware’s “C.S. Lewis: an anonymous Orthodox?”"

How many Russians read Kallistos Ware?

He is episcopating in Great Britain, and he is also not in the Russian but in the Byzantine jurisdiction.

My post is concerned with what Russians, in a country that came out of Communism in 1990 (or one supposed so) are perceiving C. S. Lewis.

III

Hans-Georg Lundahl

William O'Flaherty, these tidbits from that Russian wiki are for you to analyse whether goof or bad in biography, supposing the translation is correct or tolerable, and Aa Aa, you are very welcome to comment on the quality of translation, just three phrases:

Именно в это время он утратил свою детскую веру и стал атеистом, начал интересоваться мифологией и оккультизмом[8].

It was at this time that he lost his childhood faith and became an atheist, became interested in mythology and the occult [8].

Пережитые ужасы войны утвердили его в атеизме.

Experienced horrors of war established him in atheism.

После обращения в христианство, он начал интересоваться христианской теологией и отошёл от языческого мистицизма кельтов[16].

After converting to Christianity, he became interested in Christian theology and withdrew from the Celtic pagan mysticism [16].

• 1) was mythology and the occult really contemporary?
• 2) was CSL really ditching Celtic mythology along with Yeats' interest in Magic?
• 3) Was C. S. Lewis genuinely horrified by war, and did it affect his atheism one way or the other?

It IS after all some time since I read Surprised by Joy.

Alexander J. Wei

Hans-Georg Lundahl I would say that he always LIKED mythology, but he didn't believe in it. He was bemused when he made the acquaintance of Yeats and realized that the great man actually believed in the existence of fairies, much as Arthur Conan Doyle did.

Hans-Georg Lundahl As for the War, there was no discernible influence on his atheism. He was to all appearances, a complete atheist before and the War neither increased or decreased that.

As for whether he might have subconsciously have remained a believer, so thought not, but interestingly, his brother believes that he never completely lost his faith. Warren Lewis was a good man, but I would tend to believe CS Lewis over his brother.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Alexander J. Wei as to the first, I totally agree, but the question was more, was the interest in mythology contemporary with that in the occult?

The Ukrainean wiki lumps both together as "Pagan mysticism" and I have some difficulty in seeing C. S. Lewis renouncing the enjoyment of mythology as literature.

Wonder how bemused he would be by meeting me, I don't know whether fairies, as distinct from men (bewitched or not), angels and demons exist, but I am fairly (!) sure fairy appearances occur. So was Chesterton btw.

As to mythology, I think Theogony is a fairly worthless substitute for Genesis 1, but Iliad and Odyssey (sometimes also labelled mythology) are fairly accurate histories. Like, if we have some latitude with anachronism in arms and with omission (a very glaring one) of Hittites.

I exactly thought so, the war did not influence his atheism, and he pretty much enjoyed it (not barracks, but action in field, like a whistling bullet and thinking "This is war. This is what Homer wrote about").

I think some Russians were eager to shoehorn him into the mold of politically correct Erich Maria Remarque, when the war part of Surprised by Joy is even more "war is not the worst there is" than In Stahlgewittern by Jünger.

Alexander J. Wei "As for whether he might have subconsciously have remained a believer, so thought not, but interestingly, his brother believes that he never completely lost his faith."

So, there was at least a source for it, even if not the very best?

I agree on preferring CSL's own account.

Alexander J. Wei

Hans-Georg Lundahl There is a source, but I don't know where exactly I saw it.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No problem.

Alexander J. Wei

Hans-Georg Lundahl As to fairy appearances, I have never seen anything like them, and tend to discount them. That, of course, is only anecdotal, proves nothing, and only speaks of my mindset.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I haven't seen them either, nor miracles, nor wars breaking out.

Alexander J. Wei

Ah! Well there I have a distinction. I believe in miracles, or perhaps don't disbelieve in them, because they are attested in the Bible. The Bible says nothing about fairies. I don't believe in stories about fairies as I do about the Bible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Before believing Holy Bible, I believe history. Not above, but before.

This means, I need to give some credit for reliability to those recording it, primary witnesses.

Some of these have sighted fairies.

Note, I said I believe fairy sightings occur, I did not say fairies were sth distinct from the beings we see in the Bible, angels, men, devils.

Also, there is a passage saying "the hairy ones shall dance" and it is disputed whether it means:

• satyrs / fauns shall dance
• anatomically normal, but hairy people shall dance
• devils disguised as satyrs / fauns shall dance
• pagan idols depicting satyrs / fauns shall "dance" as they are dashed to pieces.

Also, one saint saw a Centaur, and did not decide on whether it was a creature of God or a diabolic apparition.

"I did not say fairies were sth distinct from the beings we see in the Bible, angels, men, devils." - Note, I did also not say the reverse. As, they weren't.

Alexander J. Wei

Hans-Georg Lundahl I see. I do know that people have reported seeing fairies, but i dont count that as history, while i do believe that wars started. I could, of course, be very wrong about that

Hans-Georg Lundahl

" I do know that people have reported seeing fairies, but i dont count that as history,"

History = what has been reported by men.

Note, history is not always truth. There is false history.

Alexander J. Wei

Hans-Georg Lundahl It is and it isn't. History does consist of reports, as mediated through historians. There are many reports, some of which are assigned very low credence. In addition to fairies, there are stories of aliens, dragons, various cryptozoia, etc.

Yes, just like science or theology, history is a human pursuit that is subject to human frailty.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"History does consist of reports, as mediated through historians."

No, historians are assessing history, not making it.

Sometimes our access to reports is mediated by historiographers, since original individual reports are lost, even so, the historiographers are not producing, just mediating, history. If there are reports they systematically leave out (like a 70's historiographer leaving out UFO sightings) they are suppressing history. Not making a purer one.

" there are stories of aliens,"

As credible as fairies, and both could in many cases (not saying all) be demonic.

CMI : Aliens in your bedroom?
by Mike Matthews | This article is from
Creation 27(2):36–41, March 2005
https://creation.com/aliens-in-your-bedroom

"dragons, various cryptozoia"

Cd in many cases be "surviving fossils".

Viking dragons probably Dimetrodon grandis, Amerindian thunderbirds probably pterosaurs, Nessie could be a plesiosaur, or a series of surviving such, and two African cryptozoa seem to be sauropods. Mokele mbembe and Jobar. The latter talked of in vicinity of a sauropod fossil classed as Jobaria.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Anyway, thank you for helping to show how Russian wikipedians have indeed given a false history of C S Lewis on more than one point!

IV

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I checked Bielorussian and Ukrainean wikis.

Bielorussian one was clean but very jejune. Both avoided speculations about Jane Moore.

Here are some pearls from Ukrainean one:

1) Ukraine had a praiseworthy actual argument from Lewis:

In 1961, having heard the statement of Yuri Gagarin that "he had not seen God in the cosmos," Lewis replied briefly: "With the same success, Hamlet could search for Shakespeare in the attic of his own castle."

2) Translation issues for AI ...

"When Clive was 4 years old, his dog Jacksy shot down a car."

Journalistic principle, car runs over dog, no news, dog runs over car, news. As long as everyone in the car was safe, this would perhaps have been preferrable to what actually happened.

"Soon, the school was closed due to lack of students, and the director of the school Robert Kapron 'Oldies' was dropped into the madhouse."

Sounds like the madhouse is a kind of oubliette.

"After college, Lewis took private lessons from William Kirkpatrick, a former director of the college, Lurgan, who was still taught by his father."

Kirkpatrick still taught by Albert James, not the other way round ...? Translator seems to have some issues distinguishing subject from object.

"After graduating from school in 1917, she entered Oxford University College, but soon dropped out of studies and volunteered to the front."

I like the "dropped out of studies" part.

"In 1918, after the injury, he was demobilized and returned to the university where he graduated from the studio."

Where is the studio he graduated from? Decca? Hollywood?

"On November 22, the same year, the writer died without surviving a week before his anniversary."

Wonder how many survive dying ...

3) Real issues of content, perhaps:

"Батько, людина похмура і нелагідна, у 1908 році, відразу після смерті матері, віддав його у закриту школу Віньярд подалі від дому."

"Father, a man gloomy and weak, in 1908, immediately after the death of his mother, he gave him to the closed school of Vignard away from home."

Wait, obviously refers to his being heartbroken after death of wife.

"Його новими інтересами стали міфологія та містика."

"His new interests were mythology and mysticism."

Again, as on Russian, were his first interests in mythology contemporary to the desire to dabble in magic?

"У 1923 році отримав ступінь бакалавра, а згодом — магістра. Став викладачем філології."

"In 1923 received a bachelor's degree, and later - a master's degree. Became a teacher of philology."

I checked, Ukrainean says філології and not філоcофії!

"У 1931 році в житті Льюїса відбулася світоглядна зміна: він усвідомлено став християнином."

"In 1931, in the life of Lewis, a world-wide change took place: he consciously became a Christian."

As, he had been a Christian unconsciously before?

[See above, under III]

V

S LaV

I haven't had time to respond to this until today. I read the Wikipedia article in Russian and to me, the unbalanced or biased part, if you will, has more to do with them leaving out most of the information about how Lewis contributed and his influence, rather than what is said in these parts that are questionable, like the relationship with Mrs. Moore. However, it must be remembered about the Russian church: there was never really a reformation or counter-reformation there and the oppression of believers also had an effect on whether people think as intellectually-critically or value things like apologetics, the way we do, especially we who like Lewis. The basic religious worldview of the Orthodox church and the parts of the gospel that are more particularly valued there are not necessarily what is valued highly in the west, so these differences probably contribute to part of why Lewis is not thought of as more than just another Western Christian/religious writer.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"has more to do with them leaving out most of the information about how Lewis contributed and his influence, rather than what is said in these parts that are questionable"

My impression too.

My impression on Orthos is about the same, and my problem with this is : are they trying to force Westerners to ignore what they ignore. I am for one an Apologist (RC, traddy trad)

S LaV

I haven't time to look into what goes on in the RU Wikipedia, but since it is still Wikipedia, I would assume it functions in the same way as it does here.

Whoever registers and wishes to contribute to the group collaboration--the crowdsourcing-- known as a Wikipedia article will do so and sometimes the push and pushback on various views shown in articles edited and deleted will cause great changes in the text on any given Wikipedia article. Over time, groups of editors have come forth to serve as moderators for articles to bring balance to and to improve Wikipedia's accuracy and validity and especially this is true about those articles which get public attention, like those about major figures or controversy, great public interest, scandal, political or rhetorical impact, etc.

As you could see, some articles will not have as much interest as others. Those topics with multiple people writing articles will have more of the push back of edits and deletes, and those with less interest, much less or no push-pull to sort out the balance in the points of information. For example, if you want to write in English about an American politician, many people will want to write and take a position on Wikipedia, causing a great deal of back and forth to the point that the article will need upper-level editorial attention and even become locked for further public edits. However, you could see how an article with less interest (or about a topic less interesting to people in language-speaking areas outside of the original topic) might have only one author or very few edits. For the most part, attention to any one topic or individual will be most active within the articles for that person in the language of the country in which the topic or person is important.

Go to the section on editorial changes for any article on Wikipedia and see how many and which changes have taken place to it. This is how the English one works and I would presume it is how the articles work in other languages. The various articles are not computer generated translations of the English pages (Thank God!), although you sometimes can get an option to use translation software to read them (sort of), so as with anything on Wikipedia, you get what you got.

I don't have time to dig into the Russian editorial pages and changes, but that is very likely what is going on here and there could possibly have been a more balanced version in the article on Lewis in the past.

All of that leaves out the fact that in the case of the Russian Wikipedia, Mr Putin is in the long line of Russian leaders going back through the communists and the Czars, to want to control all information. He wants and works to reset Iron Curtain control of information, so he probably has set in motion a team of Wikipedia authors working away in their cubicles, "clerks in the Records Department of the Ministry of Truth," (from the Wikipedia article, "Winston Smith") to rewrite everything according to his purposes. In that case, there are bigger worries than what does the Wikipedia article on CS Lewis say.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Whoever registers and wishes to contribute to the group collaboration--the crowdsourcing-- known as a Wikipedia article will do so and sometimes the push and pushback on various views shown in articles edited and deleted will cause great changes in the text on any given Wikipedia article."

Actually, if you do not register, your contribution will be credited as per your computer's id (whatever that is, forgot the term).

Would you, as speaking Russian, try to edit some sense into the article?

As I don't speak Russian, I can't!

"in the case of the Russian Wikipedia, Mr Putin is in the long line of Russian leaders going back through the communists and the Czars, to want to control all information."

Can a Russian wikipedia entry be edited internationally?

I think so.

S LaV

I should think so because Wikipedia is hosted online, not owned by particular countries. As far as if I wanted to write any edits to the entry. I would have to have the time to do it, which I do not have right now.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Ok, whenever you have time, or any other Russian speaker you can contact.

For me, what Russians and Ukraineans think of CSL is a problem:

• 1) I am known to be a CSL fan;
• 2) I have more than a quarter of my readers (all blogs together) in Russia and Ukraine.

Since all blogs together are less than 2 million, more than half a million is more than a quarter.

Russia 329226
682 + 27417 + 5616 + 1182 + 364 + 8929 + 28445 + 32276 + 2290 + 2902 + 10631 + 325 + 2674 + 7495 + 669 + 26439 + 146 + 144 + 1192 + 931 + 579 + 550 + 740 + 639 + 53 + 1988 + 3368 + 3372 + 10992 + 48858 + 9765 + 9928 + 7090 + 4544 + 10477 + 336 + 19731 + 765 + 23 + 1028 + 33651

Ukraine 185964
15962 + 672 + 12 + 697 + 9032 + 129 + 3480 + 2088 + 2252 + 5723 + 3606 + 43565 + 4041 + 1706 + 3222 + 645 + 11 + 182 + 294 + 315 + 348 + 385 + 1046 + 13 + 17882 + 270 + 3280 + 1254 + 100 + 5264 + 1570 + 24548 + 172 + 2433 + 325 + 3739 + 13313 + 10897 + 1491

185964 + 329226 = 515190 (more then half a million, more than a quarter)

Some funny things about arranging readerships:

France : 77763 for one blog. (777 with decimal multiples is 21*37 with decimal multiples, and 63 is 21*3, have seen a lot of multiples of 21).
France : 666 for another.

Speaking of "club 21" - this post had 42 readers prior to this last edit: [link here]

Some Men Who Saw or Committed Too Much Cruelty in Action Become Jaded

For instance, while Francisco Franco was arguably tons better than Azaña for Spain, he had some deficiencies in sensibilities about physical cruelty. Arguably, he had seen too much of it on the Rif (he may have seen things this guy has not seen), and he had maybe also done a few things too much under the orders of Gil Robles, while repressing the Red Terror in Asturias.

This does not mean we must change them, nor that we must punish them. But some things are good to take a distance from.



So, he claims, she deserves a lynching:

she should be taken around the back of whatever terminal this is, shot once, cleanly, in the back of the skull and her lifeless, wretched body dumped in the nearest industrial waste container to be disposed of the following more with the rest of the useless garbage.

Considering how damaging modern school systems are, I don't think a Muslim or Muslima caught in such should be that heavily judged simply for having joined ISIS.

One could argue, one would not want her back, that is another story. But she should not be murdered.

I'll send this to the police, and hope they take contact with their British colleagues. Let's hope TL (I'm not exposing his full identity to the public) was just letting off steam. But I definitely do not share his sentiment. Little as I like ISIS./HGL

Did send to French police, and did unfriend him. Oh, the police got the full details of his profile too./HGL

Update, 17:25 same day (16.II.2019)

Is it just a coincidence there is some fan of TL who is showing a gif of Putin winking with the right eye? I don't think so: