I was tagged about Karl Keating on Behemoth

Here is first the link to his article:

Catholic Answers : Was Job's Behemoth a Dinosaur?
Karl Keating
May 25, 2015
http://www.catholic.com/blog/karl-keating/was-jobs-behemoth-a-dinosaur

Here are my answers under the link, on Catholic Creation Alliance, with appropriate quotes:

Karl Keating's article:

"We are told that Behemoth “finds shade in the marsh.” According to Wikipedia, marshes “are often dominated by grasses, rushes, or reeds. If woody plants are present they tend to be low-growing shrubs. This form of vegetation is what differentiates marshes from other types of wetland such as swamps, which are dominated by trees.”

"So marshes are characterized by short plants. According to Wikipedia, the titanosaur was up to 130 feet long (not up to 200 feet long, as the Kolbe Center article suggests) and as much as 24 feet tall at the arch of the back. How could an animal that big “find shade” among plants that were only waist-high to a man? (Please, no jokes about elephants hiding in strawberry patches.)"

Hans Georg's answers:

Sauropod kind of which Titanosaur is one of the largest (it would seem sauropods qualifying as Mokele Mbembe are smaller) might have included size varieties incapable of finding shade in a marsh before the flood, or even not so, if plants were huger (we have seen huge fossil ferns, haven't we. This does not mean that those surviving after flood need also have been that large.

Also, finding shade in the marsh may refer rather to finding it in muddy waters than finding it under plants. But Mokele Mbembe seems to be right size for finding it under mangrove trees too.

Karl Keating's article:

"Then there is the remark that Behemoth “is not frightened by the Jordan River rushing into his mouth.” I can see how this might be true of a hippo, but it hardly sounds like a useful description of a titanosaur."

Hans Georg's answers:

Once again, Behemoths come in different sizes.

The remark on "largest among God's ways" may refer to Titanosaur size, the remark on not frightened by the Jordan River rushing into its mouth, if at all referring to opening the mouth while bathing in it as it could also refer to a comparable size between Jordan river and mouth, may refer to smaller specimens.

Karl Keating's article:

"The water moves so slowly that a child can stand in the shallows without danger of being knocked over. No titanosaur would be “frightened” by the water’s speed."

Hans Georg's answers:

Could refer to fright of water amount - Behemoths could [if so] not be waterboarded by a Jordan River sized influx.

Karl Keating's article:

"The Kolbe Center article says that the description in the book of Job is sufficient for us to “confidently identify” Behemoth as a titanosaur."

Hans Georg's answers:

Here I disagree with Kolbe centre. I think Behemoth means a kind, like dog. Titanosaur would be a breed, like Great Dane.

I think Kent Hovind would have done a better job (excuse pun, please!) than Kolbe Centre arguing the point.

Karl Keating's article:

"There are two things we can say “confidently” about this article, though:"

Hans Georg's answers:

If you care to put your confidence in vanities.

Karl Keating's article:

"it demonstrates that the Behemoth, whatever it was, wasn’t a dinosaur,"

Hans Georg's answers:

False, bungling a demonstration that it was a dinosaur doesn't amount to inadvertently proving it wasn't.

Karl Keating's article:

"and it does a disservice to the Church by promoting a preposterous argument."

Hans Georg's answers:

Keating does a disservice to the Church and to truth by being so very preoccupied with what is "preposterous" in the sight of secularists, or even in his own view, since he probably shares their ridicule for it.

Disservice to the Church is putting it very mildly.

I think that attitude was how Pharisees, preoccupied with what Pilate would consider preposterous, as well as Huigh Priests, started attacking Christ over feeling He was "doing a disservice to Qahal Israel".

Note:

I haven't read the article by Kolbe Centre, it may be less bad than the purported refutation with provided quotes and citations made it appear.

Here is their article:

Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation : Historical Evidence for Dinosaur and Human Co-existence
http://kolbecenter.org/historical-evidence-for-dinosaur-and-human-co-existence/

Here are their advisers, I have a suspicion "admin" might mean software architect, i e Robert Bennett (two T!) and I feel a certain sadness that they seem to need a psychiatrist among advisers as well:

Kolbe Center Advisors
http://kolbecenter.org/contact-us/special-creation-advisors/

PS, I had an exchange with Hugh Owen on Kolbe Center for Study of Creation, and before going into details, I must first say the essay (by an anonymised young man, possibly making his first publishing) was far better in general than as to the blunder of verbally in one sentence identifying Behemoth with Titanosaurus rather than with Sauropods in general. It's an amazing piece of art studies compared to palaeontological art. I think I will have to share this with my favourite palaeontological artist Nobu Tamura./HGL

A Video with Walter Hooper and One or Two Differences with him

Usually comments under a video are first done under the video in comboxes and then put on assorted retorts blog or its French sister blog répliques assorties. Now, this time comboxes were closed. I posted first link to video to my FB wall, not thinking I would comment, it was all so good or at least innocent as far as it went : then about ten minutes before the end, Walter Hooper started saying things that made me stop. So I posted these under the link on the FB wall. Which means it technically comes under this blog.

Which fits, because I mentioned Walter Hooper earlier here.

Walter Hooper: A Disciple of C. S. Lewis Who Became Catholic - The Journey Home (7-21-2003)
EWTN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEX9Smwqg2Q

46:29 Walter Hooper misquoted CSL and Declaration of Independence.

Decl. didn't state and CSL didn't quote it as "right to happiness by any lawful means" BUT as "[right to] pursue happiness by any lawful means".

The distinction is important. We all pursue happiness, we do not all get it.

We "have a right" to buy a journey to a tourist resort, we do not have a right to rule over it so as to eliminate anything in it which might make us unhappy. We have (more or less, cfr. St Francis of Sales on this one) a right to play poker about 1 pound sterling bets, but we do not each have the right to be the one who wins the 5 pound sterling around the table. We have a right to wax our moustaches, but not a right to be found handsome by the lady we prefer because of our moustaches. They have a right to shave their legs (perhaps, and moreover "don't need it if they are blondes", some non-blondes asked me what I shaved my legs with and then understood my body hair doesn't show because I am blonde), but they do not have a right to be found handsome by whatever man they prefer because they shaved their legs.

We have a right to buy and sell, but not an automatic right to be the seller sufficiently favoured by buyers to live without economic worries.

In other words, we have a right to hope for good luck, but we are not cheated if we don't get it.

However, I would add, some seem at times to have arranged so someone doesn't get the luck which is coming his way, that is called envy. And sometimes it uses illicit means and makes a life unnecessarily full of miseries.

Testing someone about his willingness to abide by this principle is beyond a certain point not a lawful means or way of caring for his happiness and certainly the gloating over people one "educates" or "larns" is not a lawful means for one's own happiness. Indeed, in The Four Loves, CSL describes men in authority whose affection for men under their authority or previously so becomes a tyrannical exaction of them admitting such authority, sometimes even when it is no longer there.

47:10 "The homosexual wants to marry another homosexual"

Well, take a gay couple and a lesbian couple, ideally living in two different places, let them do a partner switch, one man from the gay couple moving to where the lesbian couple lives, one woman from the lesbian couple moving to where the gay couple lives. That could be arranged.

Of course, when a homosexual does make a real marriage, it doesn't always happen that the other person in it is also homosexual. The wife of Josh Weed is or was somwhat of a tomboy but as far as I know she was never lesbian.

As I am from Sweden, there is a gay couple and a lesbian couple over there, both claiming to be Christians, and both VERY much in the media. I had to deal with this problem of moral theology before leaving. It was omnipresent. Even if you are not in Swedish Church, if you live on the territory, they send you their material for free, and in one issue the son of the better known gay with one of the lesbians was featured.

47:30 a bit before "you are broken and you need healing"?

WELLLL ... that is my issue with Vatican-II-ism on this level.

They are sinners and need conversion. No one should tell them they are "mentally ill" and need therapy.

If they are in any way willing to abide by the commandments, whether by letting a marital choice override their inclination and its consequences or whether by letting perfect chastity or an attempt to do it so, that should be enough for a curate to accept they are sane.

53:31 "Mother Teresa"?

It seems she recommended NFP to the poor in Calcutta.

I would not canonise her if I were Pope, and for whoever did pretend to do so, I would not think he is or was Pope.

Pope Michael has not canonised her. Papal Claimant Alexander IX has retroactively excommunicated her. Probably also for not being a Christian missionary, for n ot trying to convert from Hinduism or Islam. He's a Feeneyite and canonised (or succeeds one who canonised) or (in either case) pretended to canonise Fr Leonard Feeney.

I am not totally agreeing with Alexander IX, she may not be in Hell at all, but she was weak and - not canonisable, I would say.

For the Rape Victim in Paraguay

RD

In this case, what should a catholic do?

NBC News : Paraguay Rape Victim, 10, Denied Abortion; UN Raps Government
First published May 12th 2015, 11:59 am
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/paraguay-rape-victim-10-denied-abortion-un-raps-government-n357506

BM

Pray

BG

I would ensure the VICTIM, which is the child, has FULL protection from further RAPES by abortionists-- as well as accorded access to care for her and her child-- a legislature fund, and that this monster takes no further part in society, the girls life or the baby. The UN might tell us that the 10 year old child would be better served by ABORTIONISTS and will bully Paraguay by denying the poor their ROTTEN cargoes of food for the poor- BEWARE the tyrany of the western media- corporate- gates triad-- very dangerous

CMacL

Hang the rapist.

JC

Pray the child isn't the one punished for the crime.

JB

take not the life of the baby, the ten year old of the misplaced Dad of the Baby. All are in God's image

CF

I wrote on this last week. At 21 weeks the child has to give birth.

She ought to be closely monitored and given a c section under general. And advised/counseled/supported in terms of birth options and whether she wants to raise the child.

PÓC

Can the child actually have a viable birth. Surely her pelvis is too underdeveloped? Child brides in Africa end up with fistulas between vagina and anus and faecal incontInence after prolonged birth resulting in dead baby, and then being cast out of tribe and divorced due to not producing live baby and being unclean.

AC-J

Remove girl to safe place with another member of the family who can support her and baby while she grows up. She has already been violated once; another violation by adults will only increase her feeling of being used by them. If cost is a problem, get the father to pay, or let the state step in,

GO’C

I read that carrying the child full term and having a cesarean section is safer for both the girl and the baby. God protect them.

AS

O my God the monster she is only a baby herself

HMcL

"Paraguay has refused to provide treatment to save the life of the girl, who is five months pregnant, "including safe and therapeutic abortion in a timely manner.""

Exactly HOW is an abortion supposed to "save the life" of this poor wee lassie?

[Perhaps like a Caesarian would, namely ONLY in cases when small and not sufficiently elastic pelvis would make natural birth a lethal procedure. Not known in advance, I presume.]

MT

"...and therapeutic abortion..." Now I've heard everything!

MH

The fistula issue mentioned above is not about child brides - in parts of Africa mothers of all ages suffer this horror which is entirely due to female genital mutilation. Matercare I believe is the charity with the most information about this. As for this child - abortion would only make things worse - violating the girl a second time and murdering an innocent while having no effect at all on the rapist. Abortion is an evil and cannot bring good to this situation. The idea that because of her age her pelvis may not be developed enough is questionable. If it were an issue - doctors and midwives would be aware of it but I suspect that God knows what He is doing. Once a young woman reaches puberty and can physically conceive I have no doubt that in most cases she will be capable of giving birth naturally. And this would be the most natural and beneficial outcome for this girl and her baby. The rapist has done his part and should be dealt with by the justice system. His sentence should include a financial levy towards the upkeep of both his victims.

PÓC

Girls Not Brides Blog: Fistula, a silent tragedy for child brides
A longer version of this post appeared in the Life and Style section of ThisDay newspaper, Nigeria, on June 2, 2013.
http://www.girlsnotbrides.org/fistula-a-silent-tragedy-for-child-brides/

JTB

We are going to hear many more examples of tragic cases like these, the object of which reportage is not to rouse pity for the victim(s) but to use their tragedy to vilify and excoriate those who are pro-life; to bracket them along with the rapists as heartless, cruel monsters, as violators of children's "rights", as intolerant fanatics - and thus crush all resistance to the global imposition of "abortion rights". That this child's plight is dreadful is beyond doubt, but as long as there are ways of saving and healing her without the destruction of the life she is carrying, these should be the primary recourse.

HGL

Allow her a Caesarian later, if that is necessary to save her, might even not be the case.

LifeNews : 11-Year-Old Rape Victim Gives Birth to Twins, Babies Saved Thanks to Abortion Ban
Steven Ertelt May 23, 2014 | 4:58PM Washington, DC
http://www.lifenews.com/2014/05/23/11-year-old-rape-victim-gives-birth-to-twins-babies-saved-thanks-to-abortion-ban/

"Can the child actually have a viable birth."

Yes.

"Surely her pelvis is too underdeveloped?"

Maybe, that is where Caesarian Section might come in. On the other hand, pelves while growing [at that age! I meant to say] are more elastic than they become later.

In extreme cases, nine year olds can get pregnant (while at other extreme a girl might not be able until 18, while 12 and some months is the normal age), which God would not have made that way if it were automatically lethal.

"she is only a baby herself"

No. One can get a baby, one is certainly a baby no longer oneself.

PÓC , from your article:

"pregnant at 12 and developed an obstetric fistula after prolonged labour and her baby’s death"

Is that what happens every time when a girl gets pregnant at twelve? Or just sometimes?

"Fistula is a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of women, sadly 90% of them in Africa."

I think in Africa there would be more women than that who start motherhood at 12. In the case mentioned, there are other circumstances that shouldn't be, for moral reasons.

"who was married to her uncle at 9"

At 9 – below Canonic age of Catholic Church [traditionally 12, dispensations only papal and given only one half year below]. Muslims are wrong on this one.

To her uncle – too close relatives. At least under New law. Muslims are wrong on this one too.

Was married – I don't know if she was given a choice or not. If not, that is wrong too.

BUT the case of Hadiza's fistula is not a medical indication that the rape victim of Paraguay should have abortion, not even necessarily a Caesarian, that would be a further question, when birth gets started.

She is not named, but her stepfather is:

"Gilberto Benitez Zarate is accused of raping his 10-year-old stepdaughter."

Divorce and remarriage? Would he have done so if the daughter had been his? More important, would her real father from whom she was separated, have done so?

From the article by life site news now:

"However, she said her daughter would need to change schools to avoid being bullied by other pupils."

Wouldn't school compulsion be to blame for that, if so?

Overpopulation Still Falsehood

1) Creation vs. Evolution : Natural Law is Constant : St Augustine Presumably Refuting Sarfati on Sibling Marriages [after second generation of mankind] · 2) New blog on the kid : Moral or Ceremonial : Was it Against Moral Law to Eat Porc Between Moses and Jesus or St Peter? · 3) HGL's F.B. writings : Overpopulation Still Falsehood

J. H:son

shared a picture of, possibly, Shanghai or Hong Kong . Or somewhere . Text on pic : « Overpopulation is a myth » - « what kind of idiot said that ? » Said by two people to each other too far from each other in crowd to hear each other.

At first

selecting the few comments on thread I answer to. Will be quoting more in full when I come in.

J. H:son

Overpop is easy to define! It exists when the pop of an animal exceeds the carrying capacity of the natural environment in which it exists.Without the fossil fuels that we eat,we are undeniably massively overpopulated and heading for whatever hell awaits on the other side of peak oil!

J. P.

A picture of a congested city is just as much a strawman, and you know it. The entire 7 billion people on earth coulf fit in New Zealand. NZ would then be overpopulated, but there is more than enough arable land to sustain 7 billion people. I mentioned this to someone once and they responded 'but all the arable land isn't in NZ!' *facepalm* It doesn't all have to be in NZ for it to be sufficient.

J. H:son

Agreed J. P.,but take out the fossil fuel inputs and we still are hugely overpopulated now,by a factor of at least 3

… You eat 10 calories of fossil fuel energy for every calorie of food you consume,that's not sustainable and 7.3 billion cannot be fed using organic methods of agriculture,not in this universe!

… And now Finland arrives to comment.....and find itself another strawman! Density doesn't matter it's sustainability that does! I'm sure you've all seen that graphic about how much of the Sahara needs to be covered in solar panels to power the world? What it fails to address is the amount of resources,metals ,fossil fuels ,man hours,etc etc etc etc that would need to go into producing the infrastructure necessary.It simply doesn't scale and work! And that's dis-regarding the place where it is geopolitically and the occurance of sandstorm to bugger everything up 10 times a year!

… And away they go to look for something to refute me with,good luck on that people.......

J. P.

I've never heard of a fossil fuel/caloric connection, I assume you're talking about fossil fuels used for industial agriculture? Do you have an article I could read for that? Wouldn't conversion to renewable energy allow for the same levels of food production in that case?

A. D.:

shared pic from oz.

J. H:son

Yes A. D.,but on average what kind of a population would oz be able to support sustainably without fossil fuels? in reflection,oz is one of the few places that are not overpopulated,even though the interior is a huge dry,basically lifeless desert,because the fringe of the continent is so fertile! The Darwin river system is screwed though,due to over-exploitation...

A. D.

Did you know J. H:son, that Italy and Russia and somewhere else i can't remember right now are dangerously underpopulated, and the term demographic sueside has been used on those places

J. H:son

M. A. P. ,as I said to about 50 people on this page,invitation to suicide is not a clever or winning debating tactic and we don't advocate genocide anyway,just responsible breeding,don't we V. de V.?

V. de V.

Yes responsible breeding especially where familes cannot afford to have larger familes. My cleaning lady who works once a week for me only, says when I ask how she manages, that god will find a way. As I see it, it's my government with their child care grants that's doing gods' job as I ain't seeing any money transfered from his account at church HQ to her account.

Now

I am quoting more in full. Inverting order of commons to get better understanding from readers, since I added two on a row without seing one came between. Then added another to answer that one.

HGL

Crowding is not a matter of how many people there are, but how few of them live on the land. I e, how many tractors there are.

E. M.

Even if overpopulation is not a myth why do the trolls put such little faith in science's ability to solve the problem of a projected scaricity of resources?

HGL

J. H:son "Without the fossil fuels that we eat,we are undeniably massively overpopulated and heading for whatever hell awaits on the other side of peak oil!"

The fossil fuels you EAT? I wouldn't do that if I were you!

J. P. " Wouldn't conversion to renewable energy allow for the same levels of food production in that case?"

I hope you mean conversion to renewable energies like human arms and legs and animal's legs and hooves?

Because, replacing these with either petrol (non renewable presumably, I think it came from Flood of Noah) or rapeseed oil (renewable), does not augment the number of mouths that can eat, but only diminish the number of hands working with what the mouths eat.

V. de V.

Hans, consumed via the food produced by that fossil fuel.

HGL

J. H:son "Not just involved in machinery,but agri-chemicals, refrigeration,transport,full cycle"

Transport and refrigeration : mainly a question of mouths not living near where food is grown.

Agri-chemicals may well be replaceable. Pesticides with birds and ladybirds, fertilizers (most of which are old Guano anyway) by local human and animal dung and food waste.

V. de V., what do you mean "produced by"? If you cook 1 ton of strawberry jam in a factory on fossil fuels, you can as well cook 10 kg of strawberry jam in someone's home on normal fuels, like wood. The strawberries don't grow on fossil fuels per se.

[Meant to add, 100 different homes over.]

J. H:son

I think you know what I mean HGL!

'Because, replacing these with either petrol (non renewable presumably, I think it came from Flood of Noah)'
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You didn't REALLY mean that ,did you?

HGL

I very certainly do.

HGL (here is somewhat inverted order)

I very certainly do mean that.

And I have already answered what I think you may reasonably be meaning.

J. H:son

Then you are unworthy of being replyed to!

HGL

Ah, well, you did reply.

J. H:son

There are 10 calories of fossil fuel energy in every calorie of food that you eat. That is how you eat fossil fuels HGL!

HGL

"There are 10 calories of fossil fuel energy in every calorie of food that you eat."

Now you are counting in pilpuls, like how much and what energy transport took, etc.

HGL (back to normal sequence, as posted)

V. de V. "Yes responsible breeding especially where familes cannot afford to have larger familes"

• 1) Are you paying her what she should have?
• 2) Is her husband out of work or underpaid through no fault of his own, like the capitalist and industrial structure?

G. C.

J. H:son 10 calories of fossil fuel energy in one calorie... Not sure how you have accurately quantified this "Guardian Newspaper" again ?...... or is it like the one long haul flight per year that is allowable to YOU although you have two as it's not a one way trip. You must also be forgetting the carbon dioxide that is removed from the air by any plant growth and the structure of the food itself being carbon based.

J. H:son

G. C. ,Irrelevant .....

G. C.

Yes of course you are a Borg drone trying to assimilate us all into your collective of twats.

V. de V.

G. C. you are quickly becoming irrelevent to the conversation. You are the weakest link, goodbye.

HGL

G. C. , he is talking about calories of transport, mainly, and of industrialised modes of preparation, which means that could be fixed by living closer to the food, and by preparing in more decentralised fashion too, with grown fuels.

I searched for someone who could be V de V in public. From clues in username, one can guess in this direction:

Wiki : William Waldorf Astor III, 4th Viscount Astor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Astor,_4th_Viscount_Astor

Which is of course somewhat speculative, but not out of possibilities.

BUT, I seem to have been wrong. Just checked in V de V's profile.

A Pope is NOT a Masonic Venerable NOR a Pentecostal Pastor

David Bawden/Pope Michael (with shared meme):

very simple

I'm old school I BELIEVE IN HAVING GOOD MANNERS, RESPECTING MY ELDERS AND HELPING OTHERS WHEN I CAN. Share if you're proud to be old school

Me

key word : MY elders.

A Mason or Jew or Protestant outside my family who is older than me is not MY elder. Mason as in freemason, not as in legitimate physical builders, of course.

Nisi Dn⁹ edificaverit domum ... which He clearly doesn't when it comes to the building project of Speculative Masonry ... in vanum laboraverunt q edificant eam ...

Btw, if you enjoy the title "Your Holiness" from me, I advise to not behave as if running the Church with lots of Masonic behaviour.

INCLUDING to really answer on behalf of someone else who is not answering, but who thinks someone needs a lesson.

And if you say you have NO idea of what has gone on between me and Chris Ferrara (who is indeed 63 and older than I, and supposed to be a Catholic, except according to you he isn't, as long as he is not acknowledging you as Pope), well, might be you were acting out the pastoral someone else is trying to hold on me, and trying to do by praying for me to be corrected.

Either case, not a good show for a Pope.