What is Acceptable as Bad but still Valid Pope?

Gigantian Apologetics

status

Unlike the Progressives, the RadTrads openly entertain schism and conspiracies as legitimate. The problem is that RadTrads do a far better job of pretending to be Catholic, whilst Progressives can be shrugged off with a roll of the eyes. We should still condemn both, of course.

Joshua Bobo

We had medieval popes that literally had sex concubines and were among the most morally corrupt in society, but that’s ok for radtrads, they were valid popes.

But God forbid we’ve had a couple of popes who are pastoral to the marginalized and who aren’t super rigid about traditional liturgy. Nooooo, these popes are the Antichrist and true heretics who prove that the Church is compromised and only the Almighty Saint Marcel Lefebvre has maintained the real Catholic faith.

Preferring tradition and wanting to Church to be careful with prudence and discernment is fine. But I wonder if these radtrads even understand how prideful and pretentious they sound sometimes.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Joshua Bobo "that literally had sex concubines and were among the most morally corrupt in society, but that’s ok for radtrads, they were valid popes."

As long as they didn't teach verbally that having sex concubines was a good thing ...

"But God forbid we’ve had a couple of popes who are pastoral to the marginalized"

Exactly WHAT pastoral and exactly WHICH marginalised ones?

I am no fan of Roncalli, but his visit to a prison is NOT among my griefs.

Telling a couple "God bless you" when they are not trying to get out of a sinful situation is not pastoral and has nothing to do with merely social marginalisation.

Joshua Bobo

Hans-Georg Lundahl “As long as they didn’t teach verbally that having sex concubines was a good thing”

Even if they did, you’re missing the point. Neither the Church nor the papacy is built on exclusively moral and holy people. If immorality and sin and improper judgment/discernment disqualified the Church, Christianity would have died out long before it ever even got started.

No, the terrible medieval popes didn’t actively try to dogmatize or declare doctrine that suited their sins and they didn’t try to influence the church to their lifestyle. The authority they obtained from the seat of Peter was valid in spite of their grave sins. But that’s exactly my point: even when we had popes who would have made an Italian mafia boss blush, the Church still survived and people stayed loyal and faithful to the Church.

Tell me something: can you even begin to imagine how insane the media would go and how much the secular world would lunge at the Church and Christianity in general like ravenous vultures if it was ever found out that Pope Leo had mistresses, or if it was found out that he conspired to have rivals or adversaries killed? The secular media would immediately say the Church has lost all credibility and would say that Catholicism and Christianity is not a moral or upstanding religion. They already do that with the sexual abuse allegations.

And yet, radtrads would be so quick to de-escalate and rationalize Leo’s sin and evil in that hypothetical, so long as he was hyper conservative in church tradition and opposed Vatican II, and it’s all because radtrads are only concerned with being Catholic elitists who think only the TLM mass is valid and that any progressive ideals from a pope means automatic church heresy.

Just like his predecessors post Vatican II, Leo has not taught formal heresy and he has not tried to change doctrine or dogma. There is no calling away and no heresy because if there was, then Christ’s promises would be meaningless and of course no radtrad is going to dare argue that.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Joshua Bobo "Even if they did, you’re missing the point."

No.

"Neither the Church nor the papacy is built on exclusively moral and holy people."

However, exclusively on orthodox, on rightbelieving, people.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Joshua Bobo "Just like his predecessors post Vatican II, Leo has not taught formal heresy and he has not tried to change doctrine or dogma."

Wojtyla, the Galileo speech of 1992 and the CCC § 283, authorised by him.