Accusations à la Hochhuth's The Deputy

Accusations à la Hochhuth's The Deputy · Mainly on Waldensians and Crusades · DT reattacks the Eucharist

meme

"During World War II, Pope Pius XII told the US, that he could not confirm reports that Germans were executing Jews. In 2020, newly unsealed documents proved he was lying and knew all along what happened."

I

Joel Smith

Pope’s owned slaves. Popes decreed that any nonChristian in Africa was slave material. The Pope split rights to the new world between Spain & Portugal.

SEİ

Didnt protestants own hoardes of slaves and on their labor build america ?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Popes decreed that any nonChristian in Africa was slave material."

One Pope (15th C.) gave Portugal such an authorisation, in retaliation for African non-Christians hunting Christians for slaves.

Portugal continued to use it after encountering Blacks who had not been hunting Christian slaves, but even they were at least as bad as being habitual slave hunters.

The words of that one Pope were not directly revoked, but neither were they renewed when Angola or Moçambique were already around under Portugal, it just continued from that one occasion.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

SEİ Netherlands and England were very eagerly borrowing Islamic racist motivations for black slavery.

They were more slaveist than Portugal and France, least slaveist was the very Catholic Spain.

II

LVJM

There is good and bad in everyone.

GM

He is burning in hell now..

III

ShSW

Sickening
I wonder what possible reason he could have

Hans-Georg Lundahl

From the site:

// According to historians studying the documents, an adviser dismissed the reports as exaggerated, prompting the pope to tell the US that "the Vatican was unable to confirm the crimes." //

In other words, he listened to an adviser.

ShSW

Hans-Georg Lundahl thank you. That makes sense. The truth was so unbelievable, I can see how that would happen

IV

DT

An historically awful institution. Founded on lies, propigated via death, unfit for true believers.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Your view of the historic novel "Trail of Blood" was not quite the issue here ...

DT

Hans-Georg Lundahl, i did not refer to any novel. I referred to very real events...to countless tortures and killings of very real men & women ... many of them believers in Christ.

That is the well documented history of this church & this IS a history (& archeology) site.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

DT You know how many cases Bertrand Guy tried as Inquisitor in Toulouse overall, over a lapse of years (I think a decade)? You know how many of them went to the stake?

Does your "Trail of Blood" even tell?

I think "Trail of Blood" is less well documented than several historic novels.

DT

Hans-Georg Lundahl, what part of "i am not speaking of 'Trail of Blood" are you not able to comprehend?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You did not use those words. You spoke of what you are considering as "any novel" and if you believed "Trail of Blood" you would arguably consider it as documentation.

DT

Hans-Georg Lundahl, i previously said "I am not referring to any novel"...it is right above here still!

That obviously includes Trail of Blood". I do not care what "Trail of Blood" says! I care about the well documented inguisitions which ocurred, especially in Spain, and the torture and killing the Fatholic Church committed.

Do you deny that it occurred?

Are you aware of the fact that the RCC has admitted they did occur?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

// That obviously includes Trail of Blood". //

No, since it is not presented as such.

// I care about the well documented inguisitions which ocurred, //

I confronted you with Bernard Guy, what do you know of his extremely well documented carreer as Inquisitor?

// and the torture and killing //

You also said "countless" which is where Trail of Blood comes in.

I am not saying no one was tortured or no one was killed.

DT

Hans-Georg Lundahl , "i am not reffing to any novel" DOES mean that i am not referring to TOB since it is a novel. "Any" means "all" & all includes TOB.

Your lack of comprehension stands.

I am not familiar with Bernard Guy, and you "confronted" nothing...i do not need to be familiar with any one man in order to address the historical record of the Catholic Church's inquisitions.

Confront the tortures and killings, one of which would be too many. That is the task before all who were informed by Christ to love one another.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

We are also informed by St. Paul in Romans 13:4

For he is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.

Note, neither the torture, nor the death penalties were done by priests, they were done by the civil authority. Priests supervised it so that innocent people should have the benefit of an assumption of innocence, rather than get stamped as heretics by lay fanaticism or by local lay authorities confusing dogma with locally accepted doctrine.

TOB is not in fact a novel, I used "historic novel" rhetorically as an indication of its low historic accuracy.

// The Trail of Blood, a 1931 book by American Southern Baptist minister James Milton Carroll (1852-1931), comprising a collection of five lectures he gave on the history of Baptist churches, which he presented as a succession from the first Christians. //

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trail_of_Blood

When you say "documented" you in fact do need to take into account Bernard Guy, both because he was reputed extra stern, so if his death count is low, that of other inquisitors is lower, and because he is unusually well documented, since his cases from his time in Toulouse are still on the record they were back then.

930 cases (perhaps fewer people since same person could be involved in both an imprisoning and a liberation), and of these 45 died at the stake and 42 were burned in effigie, i e had either escaped from the prison or escaped warrants of arrest, but straw dolls with their names on them were burned.

This doesn't sound like "countless" to me.

Fast forward a few centuries to Spain, I think I read a description (but here I am on less sure ground as to where and what inquisitor) were fifty people were involved in an Auto da Fé, 3 burned after the other ones had proclaimed their Catholic faith.

DT

Hans-Georg Lundahl, you have (unwittingly?) provided a great example of what is wrong with Catholicism. Any institution that follows up the tortures & killings that it prompts by saying either "the civil authorities we directed actually did it, not us!" or "it was, by our count, only about 45 people burned alive due to their disagreement with our doctrine!" is RIGHTLY judged "hardly Christian".

"Barbaric", "evil", "inhumane", "the opposite of known by their love" all fit much better.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fine, you show you disagree with killing people over doctrine.

However, "only 45" isn't the total of all inquisitors, its the proportion of the 930 cases judged by one particularly well known. So, you should ditch the "countless" and start thinking "one in twenty". And if he was particularly harsh, which seems to have been his reputation, perhaps less than one in twenty overall.

The point is, you are as wrong on "countless" as Trail of Blood is wrong on "millions".

You did not adress the fact that we have a theological rationale for the killing being deserved (see stoning for blasphemy under OT law), and for people deserving killing sometimes getting executed by civil authorities (see Romans 13:4).

V

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Exactly what newly unsealed documents?

Quoting from the link:

// Early in 2020, however, documents related to the pope's wartime activities, previously held in the Vatican Archives, were unsealed, and they suggest that Pius learned of the mass executions of the Jewish people in the fall of 1942. According to historians studying the documents, an adviser dismissed the reports as exaggerated, prompting the pope to tell the US that "the Vatican was unable to confirm the crimes." //

So, the fact that person X considers report Y as exaggerated makes him a liar?

// The new evidence, detailed in the German weekly Die Ziet, reiterates that in September 1942, Pius's assistant, the future Pope Paul VI, received an eyewitness report of Jews being persecuted in Warsaw. According to Haaratz, in August 1942, Ukrainian Archbishop Andrzej Szeptycki also informed the Vatican of persecution being carried out in the Lvov ghetto. //

Here we speak of eyewitnesses to persecution, not using the word execution.

Also, the German weekly is called "Die Zeit".

VI

AG

He spoke as a person with the knowledge he had at the prevailing time. How sure are we that newly unsealed documents are true.

Condemn not before you remove the slec from your eyes.Amen

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thank you!

VII

König Der Traum

Christians pretending they care about Jews lives....... tell me what happens in the end times??? And how Jews will be massacres by Jesus and his armies?? Or am I wrong

KA

König Der Traum ... You are wrong.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"And how Jews will be massacres by Jesus and his armies??"

Antichrist's armies, having persecuted Christians for 3 and a half years, will be massacred by armies from heaven. Arguably some apostate Jews will be among them and probably very prominent among their chief.

Before that, Henoch and Elijah will have spent 3 and a half years converting Jews and other non-Christians, and will be killed by apostate Jews in Jerusalem. Thereone 7000 Jews will convert in one day.

Before that, 144 000 Jews will convert.

In the Christian view, Judaism as now known will not exist, it will be divided into Jews who become Christians and Jews who accept Antichrist as their Messiah, and that will arguably be incompatible with at least Haredim versions of Judaism. Hence, Apostate from the "Jewish" point of view too.

When I say apostate, I mean from a Christian viewpoint, but arguably they will also be such from the traditional Jewish point of view, since adoring a man who is just a man is against the Torah too.

König Der Traum

Hans-Georg Lundahl long story short Jews will be killed by Jesus and his armies ... after he come down after 7 years..no?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

So, long story short, you identify Jews with apostates and Christianophobe killers?

PC

Yep, König Der Traum, completely & utterly wrong! Obviously you have great and yawning gaps in your knowledge. Try reading that completely Jewish book called the New Testament.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

König Der Traum - I note you live at one of the four corners of the continents ...

I think you should read both Apocalypse 7 and Apocalypse 20.

VIII

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Anyone who thinks this list is anything like good reading for Christians, check how one item is formulated : "Imprisoning Galileo In His Home For Years Because He Suggested Science Was Greater Than God"

In other words, the list is compiled by an Atheopath.

IX

Ephesus Pure In Heart

Probably a lie! US was isolationist and wanted no part of Europe from 1936 to 1941. Why would the Pope in Rome confide with any American politician or member of the Press? Pope Pius XII stopped Jews being deported by the Nazis in 1940 to 1944. The USA knew about the holocaust in at least December 1942 and did nothing! The USA blocked ships with Jewish Refugees in 1938. STOP ACCUSING OTHERS.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I agree with the general sentiment, but it is more half truth than lie. If you go to the link, an advisor to Pius XII told him to consider the reports exaggerated.

He had a wartime correspondence with Truman.

X

JMcA

NOT saying it didn’t happen. 🙄
but do we have the source material?

The ‘newly unsealed documents’?
That would help when discussing the validity of the Catholic Church...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Not really, since a sin by a Catholic leader, including the Pope, does not automatically invalidate Catholicism.

JMcA

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You’re right.

Not even all the documented horrors committed by the Catholic Church doesn’t invalidate them.

The obvious outright heresy they teach does that just fine. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Oh, you think Catholics are "heretics" and committed "documented horrors"?

For one, not believing reports of executions of Jews by Germans, after an adviser claimed they were exaggerated is not a horror.

Second, if you were referring to others, definitely promoted as general policy by the Catholic Church, if any such were a horror, that would invalidate them, as per being a heresy in moral doctrine (if you thought Inquisition, join the fray on DT's side higher up).

Third, whatever heresy you considered an outright such, welcome to define it ... but you might want to read this first:

Great Bishop of Geneva! : Got Questions? "what are the differences", and a Catholic answer
https://greatbishopofgeneva.blogspot.com/2020/07/got-questions-what-are-differences-and.html