Rus of Rurikids and of Kiev = Ukraine or Russia? (Not Moscow's Empire!)

Angelica Shalagina

status

Ukraine is not a piece of russia.
Never was.
Never will be.
And that’s exactly what putin can’t accept.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Claiming Ukraine was part of Rossiya / Muscovy, is like claiming England, Scotland and Wales are part of the United States.

Obviously, Ukraine was part of Sviataya Rus', the main part in fact, and that along with Belarus and selected originally not Moscovite parts of Russia, like Kuban and Novgorod.

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Richard Murphy

Hans-Georg Lundahl Sorry, you are wrong - the US thing is back to front, since the US "belonged" to England at one time, not the other way around.!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Richard Murphy And parts of Russia belonged to a Rus' that is now mainly Ukraine.

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Robert Thomas

Hans-Georg Lundahl Ukraine never existed then

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Robert Thomas Under the name Rus, it did.

Живко Иванов

Hans-Georg Lundahl so it was Russia

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No. Russia is basically Muscovy, not Rus.

Живко Иванов

Hans-Georg Lundahl and why Rus would be Ukraine? How high are you

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Rus happens to have had as capital in 988 AD a certain city named Kiev.

How high is that.

I did not deny but actually state Rus included Belarus and some parts of modern Russia, but these ones were rebooted from Muscovy, and Suzdal, Tver and Vladimir were not original parts of Rus. Novgorod was in Rus, and was destroyed by Muscovy in the 16th C, Kuban also, and was starved for Muscovy in the 20th, like Ukraine.

How high is that? Not one single joint, not one single mouthful.

How about you asking your level of either THC, alcohol or simply stress hormones, when you didn't read all of my original comment before making your answer?

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Dima Kasyanenko

Hans-Georg Lundahl not exactly its like claiming that the US ARE part of UK

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Dima Kasyanenko The other way round.

Muscovy got independent of a Rus that was centred in Ukraine. THEN Muscovy, having claimed "all Russia" for itself, tried to make Ukraine a part, and failed, much like the settlement in Ireland failed to make Ireland a second island for John Bull.

Dima Kasyanenko

Hans-Georg Lundahl exactly

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You do get the difference, I hope?

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Stephen Loach

Hans-Georg Lundahl different continents for a start and the US was British

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Stephen Loach Exactly my point.

Muscovy, the beginning of modern Russia, was an outpost, lately reaching independence, compared to a Rus centred on Kiev, i e on Ukraine, mainly.

Stephen Loach

Hans-Georg Lundahl there were no countries at that time, just constantly moving kingdoms or the like. Modern Ukraine was a creation of the USSR. Kyivian Rus only became a power after the Swedish arrived. The Rurik dynasty later moved to Moscow which later became the Russian empire which included a place called Ukraine. All that aside UKraine is independent now and deserves to stay that way

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Stephen Loach "The Rurik dynasty later moved to Moscow"

If the Ynglings moved from Swabia to Sweden, this doesn't give Charles XVI Gustaf the right to rule Stuttgart or other parts of Württemberg.

If the Ynglings, with much more certainty moved from Sweden to Norway via Wermland after Ingjald, this doesn't give Haakon VIII any claim on Sweden.

What you mean is that ONE branch of the Rurikids came to rule Suzdal, Tver and Vladimir, later unified to the principality of Muscovy. They also very quickly came to bow down to Tatars.

And one of the oldest actually Rurikid cities, Novgorod, was attacked by Muscovy when Muscovy got free from Tatars. As a Swede, I'm not forgetful of Novgorod.

Meanwhile, the Suzdal and so on branch was only one branch, most branches, with or without power, lived on in what's now Ukraine or nearby parts of Russia, as well as in Belarus.

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Cristina Gorea

Hans-Georg Lundahl 😂😂 What an impressive display of historical confusion! Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire from the 18th century and later part of the Soviet Union until 1991. Comparing that to Britain being part of the United States is absolutely ridiculous. 😂 And Kyivan Rus wasn’t some modern Ukrainian nation state either. It was a medieval federation whose history is shared by Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians. You can’t simply cherry pick medieval history and pretend the following centuries never happened. Perhaps open a history book before confidently lecturing everyone else. 😂

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Cristina Gorea "Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire from the 18th century"

Make that, was occupied and oppressed by the Russian Empire, not unlike how Ireland was by England, Highlands by England and by Lowlands.

"Comparing that to Britain being part of the United States is absolutely ridiculous."

Not if some guys conquer Britain and make it 51st, 52nd and 53rd states.

"And Kyivan Rus wasn’t some modern Ukrainian nation state either. It was a medieval federation whose history is shared by Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians."

If you look up my original comment under Miss Shagalina, I mentioned that Belarus and parts of Russia were also part of Kievan Rus.

The main parts of Kievan Rus that are now Russia are Kuban, victim of Holodomor, and Novgorod, victim of Ivan the Terrible.

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Julia Juleah

Hans-Georg Lundahl The Eastern part of Ukraine was Russian territory long before Ukraine was born, hence why the residents are ethic Russians and why the Russian language is their mother tongue! The land was carved out of Russian territory to form part of Ukraine. Living in denial won't change the facts!

Kjell Flanell Flodman

Julia Juleah Ukraine is the cradle of Russia and until 1169 were the grand princes of Kiev supreme rulers over all Russia.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Kjell Flanell Flodman Obviously not counting Muscovy, which didn't even exist in 1169.

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John Reilly

Hans-Georg Lundahl ukraine is new

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Not really. No more than Finland and Poland and Lithuania in 1918.

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Kuba Dabrowski

Hans-Georg Lundahl ukraine is made up from Russian and Polish land. leeching ukraine is no older than 100 years old unfortunately 🤣

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Kuba Dabrowski You forget that culturally, Ukraine has stronger continuity with Rus than Russia has.