Four Corners and Firmament

From the group Catholic Cosmology and Geocentrism. Starting with my status on St. George's Day.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

status

April 23 2021

This has really nothing to do with Geocentrism per se, but with a very recurrent strawman. Like "are you flat earth too".

Now, one version of the strawman would be, "if you are geocentric bc of the Bible, you'd have to be flat earth bc of the Bible".

Now, one of the arguments about Bible being flat earth are two "four corners" passages in Apocalypse (7 and 20).

Now, the answer would be fairly obvious to someone having any familiarity with tsit-tsit. The things Pharisees were too long, but probably in the right place, the four corners of their clothing.

Clothes do not lie flat on the ground when you wear them, and they still have four corners. Ergo, the four corners are corners of something on an earth which very well may be (and according to Magellan, Elcano and some more is, I'd nearly forgot Mike Horn here too) a globe.

Since there is no actual argument from the Bible to Flat Earth, the arguments from the Bible to Geocentrism stand.

I

Mil Sneler

Four corners would denote square earth, because circle doesn’t have corners

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mil Sneler Or square or rectangular something else, like continents.

II

GB

The Flat Earth “movement” is a hoax intended to confuse the ignorant and discredit geocentrism by association.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

GB Possible.

Not all of them, though.

III

BRC

Have you read Genesis? Lol. Lots of Firmament and Flat Earth in just the first chapter. I’m not a FE proponent, but there is undeniable scripture support for FE.

Mil Sneler

BRC Do you have any examples?

BRC

Mil Sneler basically most of the first chapter is contrary to anything but a FE model- but this ones pretty good. And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. Genesis 1:6 -

Alex Naszados

Admin

What Does the Bible Teach about The Flat Earth? | Robert Sungenis Live - Jan. 13, 2021
14.I.2021 | The Frontline TV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHX1NGnUFC8

Mil Sneler

BRC Why is that verse flat earth? I don’t see it. I understand it as creating dry land or what we would say continents.

BRC

Mil Sneler Ok. How about this then. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so. Genesis 1:7 -

Mil Sneler

BRC Explain how is this talking about flat earth? Seems like there’s water above the ground and below the ground?

BRC

Mil Sneler the firmament is 100% not land. Thank you. God also said: Let the waters that are under the heaven, be gathered together into one place: and let the dry land appear. And it was so done. And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:9-10 -

Mil Sneler

BRC So what is firmament and how does it feature in flat earth? God created a man and he called him Adam.

Alex Naszados

Admin

Robert Sungenis' book on this includes an entire chapter on the firmament, along with his exhaustive biblical exegesis. You can get the PDF for only $10:

Dr. Robert Sungenis Theologian, Catholic Apologist, Scripture Scholar
https://www.robertsungenis.org/p/store.html?#!/Flat-Earth-Flat-Wrong-PDF-Download/p/155482001

GB

BRC Here the Haydock biblical commentary on what firmament means:
«Ver. 6. A firmament. By this name is here understood the whole space between the earth and the highest stars. The lower part of which divideth the waters that are upon the earth, from those that are above in the clouds. Ch. — The Heb. ‘Rokia’ is translated ‘stereoma,’ ‘solidity’ by the Sept., and ‘expansion’ by most of the moderns. The heavens are often represented as a tent spread out, Psalm. ciii. 3. C.
Ver. 7. Above the firmament and stars, according to some of the Fathers; or these waters were vapours and clouds arising from the earth, and really divided from the lower waters contained in the sea. C.»

Mil Sneler

GB So nobody knows what firmament is? So many ideas about it. Which one is correct?

Alex Naszados

Admin

One of the most interesting and informative chapters of Dr Sungenis' book (which I link above) is the chapter on the firmament. He addresses literally all of the available commentaries and has the advantage of a full knowledge of the original Greek.
If cost is an issue, you can get the PDF for only $10.
Here is a small sample from the chapter in question (the whole chapter is 65 pages):
<<Since Genesis does not say the firmament is a dome above a flat earth, then what is it? This is actually easier to answer than it has been purported to be. We read in Genesis 1:6-9 that:
1. the firmament is synonymous with the heavens (Gn 1:8: “and God called the firmament heaven”);
2. that the sun, moon and stars are placed “in” the firmament; and
3. that birds fly “in” the firmament.
The only way for these three criteria to be fulfilled is to understand the firmament is simply the constitution of space. We look up and see that the heavens are filled with a lot of space. We see the celestial bodies reside in that space. Lower, towards the earth, we see the birds flying in the same space. There is nothing but space. As it stands, we do not see birds flying “in” a dome and we do not see celestial bodies “in” a dome. If one wants to use “dome” as the translation for the Hebrew raqiya, he can only say that birds and stars exist underneath a dome, but they are not, as the text of Genesis 1 specifies, “in” the raqiya (a very important point we will address later).
If one then argues that the raqiya also includes all the spatial area from the surface of the Earth to the outside layer of a dome a few thousand miles above the Earth, he has created two opposing definitions for the raqiya: (1) the raqiya is a hard and thin semispherical dome a few thousand miles above the Earth, yet (2) the raqiya is also the few thousand miles of space between Earth and the dome. This is a contradiction, and when there is a contradiction then at least one of the two premises are wrong. Either the raqiya is space or it is a dome, but it cannot be both.>>

Mil Sneler

Alex Naszados I have looked bunch of translations of where the birds are flying in relation to this firmament, some fly below the face of the firmament, some fly in the firmament, some fly under the firmament.

Alex Naszados I think firmament must be everything above the earth. Sky , space, heavens.

Alex Naszados

Admin

Mil Sneler Just like there are three heavens (sky, space and the Empyrean). So then it would be correct to say the birds fly in and under at the same time.

Mil Sneler

Alex Naszados I checked some other languages and firmament is translated in those as air space or expanse of space.

Alex Naszados We know the birds fly through the sky and we know there is water in the sky.

BRC

Mil Sneler not sure. Flat Earth people assert that it’s a dome.

Mil Sneler

BRC I don’t know why it has to be dome?

BRC

Mil Sneler me either.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

BRC "Firmament and Flat Earth"
Firmament, yes: http://drbo.org/chapter/01001.htm
[6] And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. [7] And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so. [8] And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day.
Flat Earth, didn't see any ...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mil Sneler Haydock comment:
"By this name is here understood the whole space between the earth and the highest stars. The lower part of which divideth the waters that are upon the earth, from those that are above in the clouds. Ch." = Challoner.
Not a flat earther.
Now, it so happens, I would agree on where the firmament is, and while I think aether is everywhere in all of the universe between atomic nuclei and as locus for both light and vectors, I also believe that the part between earth and fix stars including their level, but below the Empyraean heaven where God's throne is, in Heavenly Jerusalem, is "solidified" in so far as it turns _together,_ one full circle around earth every 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4 seconds. Lower heavenly bodies than the fix stars, like Sun, Moon and other planets are moved by angels backward through their (sometimes shifting since sunrelated) levels of the firmament, meaning they take longer each day and make some period longer than they day.