St. Thomas Aquinas wasn't heretical last time I checked

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Who would agree that, whichever the sides be that be right - I'm Geocentric, but I am asking about a thing Heliocentrics could agree on - the shift in culture from Geocentrism to Heliocentrism, first owed a lot to Desaguyliers the Freemason being Newtonian, but second, to a combination of on the one hand aberration and later parallax, so called (as Geocentric I think they are misnomers) and on the other hand, lightning rods having contributed to outmode the view that angelic creatures (in the case of lightning typically fallen ones) basically help God run the physical universe?

I

Nicholas Landholdt

???

Must be over my head. lol

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Author

Nicholas Landholdt OK.

Two arguments were *pretty* prominent around 1750 / 1850 - namely Aberration and Parallax.

If angelic spirits could move stars, both arguments fall flat.

And that is what St. Thomas thought (I think it's Prima Pars, Q 70, A3). Angels do move celestial bodies.

Now, he also thought that angels and demons rule over physical events on a lower scale - like demons ruling over thunderstorms and lightnings.

This is not per se refuted logically by lightning's physical components obeying other interference too (like lightning rods) but it was socially perceived as outmoded after the lightning rod.

Is this still over your head?

Nicholas Landholdt

You're getting closer, Hans-Georg Lundahl.

Since I am a simple laymen and "stuff" like metaphysics and theology and the like is not required in my job description for saving my soul, I focus more on temporal Catholic Action and getting rid of Satan's children here in America using the Second Amendment.

As Dirty Harry once said: "A man's got to know his limitations." https://youtu.be/JfwYe1484EQ

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Author

Sure, but this group is a bit beyond the necessary truths about which no one must be ignorant.

Nicholas Landholdt

Hoping to find activists who want Catholic Action to take care of business vs. the #SOS, I "lurk" more than anything and p/u a thing or two in the process.

Never know what you might learn or who you come across. I ended up interviewing Robert Sungenis on my "Christian Revolt" talk radio show some time back.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Author

Nicholas Landholdt // who want Catholic Action to take care of business vs. the #SOS, I "lurk" more than anything //

What is that?

Now, obviously, whatever it is, it is also beyond the truths on which no one must be ignorant.

Robert Sungenis and I have two divergences about Geocentrism.

1) I consider angels move celestial objects;
2) and that "parallax" and "aberration" are really proper movements, executed by angels, that neither tell us of heliocentrism NOR of distances. This means, with angelic movers and geocentrism, I have a very simple solution to the distant starlight problem for young universe : stars aren't all that distant.

He denies both and prefers an exotic solution (at least one where light travels faster than the two way speed of light) to the distant starlight problem, and thinks the distances and sizes underline the greatness of God.

Nicholas Landholdt

Does the Church have any de fide teaching on either of those "two divergences about Geocentrism", Hans-Georg Lundahl?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Author

Nicholas Landholdt No.

Historically, however, there is a clear preference (not a de fide definition) for angelic movers (divergence one) as I could read on the appropriate page of the Almagestum Novum by the Jesuit Astronomer Riccioli. There are also clear preferences for things involved in fix stars being, not exactly near, but nearer than 13 billion light years : an easier motivation for the Biblical timeline, and a somewhat more humanly comprehensible "Heaven where angels adore God and where blessed dead go is above the fix stars" or even "above the sphere of the fix stars."

There are priests now who totally deny that Heaven is an actual place, despite it being de fide that Christ is THERE. When Protestants many of them also deny that Heaven is a place, they come to see, often enough and heretically, the Assumption as a kind of reversal of the Incarnation : with no bilocation of His flesh and blood into the Eucharist and no motherhood left for Mary, their view sometimes being that the "spiritual resurrection body" is another one than the one She bore and which suffered on Calvary.

Obviously, Sungenis does not deny the truths, but having stars a kind of nearly thin "stratum" between the cosmos we see and the throne rooms of God makes it so much more accessible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Author

I am obviously not counting what Wojtyla and Ratzinger said in the early 90's as "de fide" or even as being backed by ecclesiastic authority on a lower level of the ordinary magisterium, I rather count it among my arguments these men were not Catholics and held no authority as Pope or Cardinal in the Church.

II

Johnny Proctor

Be careful about things that belong to both cosmology and angelology... We cannot modify cosmological models that include the angels as movers and manitainers of the physical systems with doing violence to the de fide doctrine of angels.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Author

There is no de fide doctrine pertaining to angels that excludes the angelology and cosmology of St. Thomas Aquinas.

Remark : "cosmological models that include the angels as movers and manitainers of the physical systems" I don't know what Johnny Proctor means with saying of angels (on my view) "maintainers of physical systems" unless by a "physical system" he means the movements that angels perform. The angels on my view are certainly not maintainers of the existence of the bodies, they do not control the nature, just the place of objects that they are moving./HGL

A Creationist More or Less Friend Goes Anti-Catholic, Again + Update on Rick DeLano

Kukoleck Adam

“Not only is Rome the source and center of Fascism, but it has been the seat of a Pope [Pius XII], who, as we shall show, has been an open ally of the Nazi-Fascist-Shinto Axis since his enthronement. He has never raised his voice against that Axis, he has never denounced the abominable aggressions, murder and cruelties they have inflicted upon mankind, and the pleas he is now making for peace and forgiveness are manifestly designed to assist the escape of these criminals, so that they may launch a fresh assault upon all that is decent in humanity." H.G. Wells "Crux Ansata, An Indictment of the Roman Catholic Church." Chapter 1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

This lie by the Marxist Wells is rebuked by the correspondence between Pius XII and Truman, during the war.

"the pleas he is now making for peace and forgiveness are manifestly designed to assist the escape of these criminals"

I'm noting that Wells was eager to make high demands for hangings and war reparations, and would have been as eager to lay even more of Germany waste in 1945. He is - like his near master Lenin - a liar and a killer.

[As a Fabian, Wells did not have Lenin totally as master, especially not in economic things.]

I

Kukoleck Adam

I don’t see it. Criticism of the pope may be wrong but it’s never misplaced

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If it is wrong, it's misplaced because it is wrong.

Kukoleck Adam

Hans-Georg Lundahl I don’t know that it’s wrong

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I do.

Peter Godman, Hitler et le Vatican, Paris, Perrin, 2010, 368 pages, 23 €

https://www.piexii.com/20100215hitler-et-le-vatican/

My accusations against the possible apostate in 50-51 is opposite : he gave orders for Montini and Roncalli (both future antipopes) to succour the Jews. He hid a lot of them in the Vatican (from which German occupants of Italy were excluded) and all three got close to them, and they were already Evolution accepters and modernist apostates.

But the antisemitic criminal is ludicrous. Later research has shown he had previously not been fond of Jews, but he did more than most to save their lives.

Other instance : The Assisi Underground. By Alexander Ramati. Bishop of Assisi and Fascist mayor of Assisi hid Jews.

Kukoleck Adam

Hans-Georg Lundahlante pavelich?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Like when did Christians get a duty to help vindictive prosecution?

Tito may have been OK about farmers (unlike Stalin), but he was already massacring people (including Croat refuges in Austrian Bleiburg).

It was obvious Ante Pavelic had no chance of a fair trial.

Are you a fan of the Jewish Massonic liar who was promoted by Chick tracts and described himself as a "hereditary knight of Malta" which is not sth that exists?

Kukoleck Adam

Hans-Georg Lundahl Jewish Masonic liar? Who? Are you saying it was right to hide him because he couldn’t receive a fair trial?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

It was right to help people flee from unfair trials, including both Ustashi and Nazis.

It is a Christian act of mercy.

Recall the role of the altar in the OT?

Who? One often cited by Serbs with anti-Catholic accusations.

Kukoleck Adam

John Wilkes booth was hid and buried at the Vatican. Why?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

John Wilkes Booth never left US. You brought up one of his helpers, he was extradicted.

Btw, I meant Avro Manhattan.

Kukoleck Adam

Hans-Georg LundahlI think Mussolini couldn’t get a fair trial but he got what was coming

Oh I’m a fan. Not because I believe everything he said was true but because he was one person that believed in telling both sides of the story about the pope. The msm doesnt

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If Mussolini had appealed to the Catholic Church, they would have been obliged to give him shelter against for instance partisans.

"And among the cities, which you shall give to the Levites, six shall be separated for refuge to fugitives, that he who hath shed blood may flee to them: and besides these there shall be other forty-two cities,"
[Numbers 35:6]

And when did Avro Manhattan ever tell the pro-Catholic side of any part of the papacy?

When was he even moderately honest about the anti-Catholic stuff?

What is "msm"?

Kukoleck Adam

Hans-Georg Lundahl mainstream media

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Well, they are not wrong on everything, and they are catching up after - in English speaking countries - being too Avro Manhattan.

Kukoleck Adam

Hans-Georg Lundahlhow’s Rick Delano george?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Well, he is as far as I know not attacking Pius XII for participation in the NS persecution of Jews.

We are divided about details in Geocentric cosmology, like whether angels move celestial bodies (me, yes, he, no) and whether the phenomenon classified as parallax really is that and tells us about stellar distances (he, yes, me, no).

I don't know what he is even doing in this discussion.

Update

Kukoleck Adam

Hans-Georg LundahlI see no I was curious about his health I believe I had heard he had several different health issues from time to time and I haven’t heard from them lately travel in different circles so

Not to be evasive at all this my time is pretty limited these days but I appreciate your reference and it’s Sunday I happen to acquire the means to to get that I may well really believe it but I wouldn’t have any opinion at all if I Change it every time somebody came along with a contradictory reference

Ron Eclavea

Kukoleck Adam
Sadly ...he passed away a few days ago. 🙏🏻⛪️⛪️⛪️

Kukoleck Adam

I had no idea . Just seemed he had been sick on and off. Do you know what from?

Ron Eclavea

Kukoleck Adam

Sorry ...not a few days ago.

He passed on Sunday morning, January 23.

He had been ill for some time.

I found out on a Facebook chat on one of Sungenis Facebook podcast

Sungenis also commented a bit on his time with Rick 🙏🏻

Kukoleck Adam

That’s a loss for us. He knew his stuff. So good at presenting it.

Ron Eclavea

Kukoleck Adam

True! He will be greatly missed.

Animated and very passionate, articulate and smart.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Ron Eclavea Thank you for telling. RIP

II

Kukoleck Adam

Did the Vatican not assist anti-Pavelich to escape justice and hide him in continents did they not assist do assassin of Lincoln and hide him in the Vatican how many World War II enemies were hidden by the ratlines and the Vatican. Does the Vatican have money from the Jews and others does that not make them complicit in murder and stealing

[already answered on Ante Pavelich above.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Kukoleck Adam I already answered, no, the assassin's indirect helper was certainly in the Papal States, but not known to authorities there to have been such, and they helped extradict him.

III

Kukoleck Adam

What is the pope wrong about George what is the Vatican wrong about

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Kukoleck Adam If you mean the historic Vatican - nothing.

If you mean the Vatican in Exile - at utmost Pope Michael's social ethics are too bourgeois and capitalistic.

Perhaps, at worst, amounting to Puritan.

If you mean "Pope Francis" - his Vatican is not Catholic. But it is also very far from Antisemitic.

Who? One often cited by Serbs with anti-Catholic accusations.

Shaun Doyle's and My (Rare) Interaction

Shaun Doyle

10th August (2021)

Religion and spirituality isn't fundamentally about what works for you. It never was, and it never will be. It's about what's true or false. Real or fake. Whether God exists or not isn't dependent on what works for you. Whether Muhammad was a true prophet or not doesn't depend on what works for you.

If your religion or spirituality is about what works for you, you've fundamentally missed the point of religion and spirituality. Even if you feel it works for you, it can still be false.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

There are levels where spirituality is about what works for you, like chosing the celibate or married life, though. Obviously this is way beyond the fundamental question of what is truth (but one argument for Catholicism is, it usually leaves celibate or marriage up to you, corresponding to the 100-fold/60-fold and 30-fold fruit of a certain parable).

Note, my celibate is not about what works for me, it is about what was foisted on me. In a non-definitive, and yet non-ending way.

Shaun Doyle

Hans-Georg Lundahl I'm clearly talking about what religion/spirituality somebody chooses, not optional spiritual practices within a religion/spirituality.

Besides, all Christian traditions leave the choice of marriage or celibacy up to the individual. But, contra Catholicism, most strands of Protestantism are both freer and in line with Scripture for more people, since we don't refuse marriage to clergy (1 Tim. 4:3). Indeed, Paul says 'presbyteroi' should be 'one woman men' (1 Tim. 3:2; Titus 1:6). Whatever the precise implications of that phrase (some say elders should ALWAYS be married, but Paul almost certainly didn't mean to exclude himself from possibly being an elder), Paul clearly allowed married men to be clergy.

Blocked combox

Shaun Doyle a limité qui peut commenter cette publication.

Tried other account

Shaun Doyle limited who can comment on this post.

So, the following cannot be written back to Shaun Doyle in context. First some Apologetics, for Catholicism:

• Pope Michael has restored married clergy in the Latin rite (it has been abolished c. AD 1000 by Pope Gregory IX), and the first priest he ordained is a married one, father Francis Dominic;
• For those not accepting David Bawden's emergency conclave and the outcome at which he became Pope Michael, Eastern Rite Catholics never lost that, since their conditions for reuniting with the Pope were very often to not become involved in the Gregorian Reform;
• I am thankful Shaun Doyle sees - as some Protestants do not see - that St. Paul recommending celibacy and living it did not intend (or at the very least sees he did not necessarily intend) to make "elders" always married (the reference to his own life need not be correct, since he could have considered himself an episkopos rather than a presbyteros, for one);
• "one woman men" is intended as a maximum - under Eastern Rite or under Pope Michael (I presume), a man married once to a woman who is also married to her first man may become priest, but a man remarried after widowhood or married to a widow can't;
• the reference to Scripture in Church discipline is moot - does Shaun Doyle think every woman entering a Church needs to have her head covered (1 Corinthians 11:10) or every woman, man or child who is in the Church (rather than still outside the community of believers) needs to abstain from black pudding (Acts 15:20)? In a similar way as headscarves and abstinence from black pudding are over the Church universal now optional but still obliging in local Churches where the tradition was kept up (view of St. Thomas Aquinas) - the Church was free to change other disciplinary rules mentioned in the Bible, like freedom for married men to be priests and by now has done so twice in the Latin Church, restricting in the time of Gregory IX and rstoring the freedom in the time of Pope Michael and leaving Eastern Rite Catholics outside the changes, and now more in line with the Latin rite of Pope Michael than with that of "Pope Francis"

Since I hadn't counted on his blocking further communication, at least on this topic, I'll say what I had intended to say if he had challenged me on the reference to my own situation.

In Catholic Church law (at least 1983, perhaps 1917 too), a marriage is licit only if the couple has a place to live. A house will do. An apartment in a larger house will do. A gypsy living van will do. A tent will not do. It will not provide the privacy a couple needs to pay the marital debt. This doesn't necessarily mean a couple isn't validly married if they manage to get around this, I think they are and need to search out places of privacy (even if it were in the wild), but it makes it harder to get married if you live in the street.

There are two categories of apolegetics communities that have, so far, boycotted my work. CMI, AiG, and a few more, are seemingly saying they can't use my Young Earth Creationist apologetics as long as I am Catholic (if they think "Pope Francis" has a stance which would put my conscience in internal conflict, let them observe whom I called Pope and capable of changing Church discipline and whom I didn't call so, and yes, Pope Michael is Young Earth Creationist and Geocentric, Palmarian claimants from Clemente Domínguez y Gómez (whom I no longer call "Pope Gregory XVII") to Joseph Odermatt (whom I do not call "Pope Peter III") are Young Earth Creationists with the specification of accepting Masoretic / Vulgate chronology and rejecting literal six days in favour of a one moment creation, basically believing with obligation, what St. Augustine (who didn't use the Vulgate timeline) believed as the better interpretation, but leaving the other option free. I left them after hearing they consider the universe has (at least) 8 dimensions and then they are probably not Geocentric either. But back when I was Palmarian, my Catholicism was also not in any objective conflict with Young Earth Creationism.

The other one are Catholics like Trent Horn, Matt Fradd, Jimmy Aikin, Mark P. Shea, Peter Kreeft, they do great work on the Catholic and general Christian apologetics side (I saw a bad thing by Trent the other day, on evidences for Jesus he would not use, the one where he finally said the right thing was TF), but boycott me because I am Young Earth Creationis and Geocentric and accept Pope Michael.

Both teams seem fine with using C. S. Lewis, though, while he was mostly (up to relatively late, that is) not Young Earth Creationist and in The Problem of Pain directly contradicted that position, and while he was also not even on his death bed in at least visible communion with the Church of Rome (unless there is a covered up story not yet published).

I am actually most shocked by the de facto boycott (not a boycott in principle, though) by Pope Michael on the ground I need to learn to work. I do work, I write./HGL

Somewhat Sectarian Style, Semel

HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS: Somewhat Sectarian Style, Semel · Somewhat Sectarian Style, bis · Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl: No Answer from Dr. Liebi, So Far? · Stefan Claesemann tries to take it in private with me · Creation vs. Evolution : Let's Carbon Test Stefan Claesemann's Chronology · Correcting the Test

Stefan Clasemann

Admin

HAS THE RESEARCH FOR YET UNIDENTIFIED QUMRAN FRAGMENTS REVEALING EXODUS 1:8 AND JUBILEES 46,14 ANY CHANCE?

The Fragments of the Latin version from the 6th-century Book of Jubilees discovered in the old monastery library in Bobbio, Italy identifies the new King who arose after Joseph’s death and didn’t know Joseph:

“After having defeated the Egyptian King, the King of Canaan makes the plan to oppress the Israelites and executes his plan.”
Jubilees 46,14

The 6th-century original Latin critical sentence is:

"Et cogitauit rex Chanaam cogitationem pessimam ut adfligeret eos." Jubilees 46,14 Ambrosiana C 73 46:12-48:5

Together with the rediscovered original unfalsified Strict Bible Chronology (Dr. Roger Liebi) the Book of Jubilees identifies 1729 BC as the year of a Canaanite arising in enmity as new and foreign ruler over Egypt and enslaving Israel.

That this new strange foreign king is no one else than the first Canaanite Hyksos called Salitis/SakirHar/Sharek is confirmed by the Bible itself because Exodus1:8 is translated literally:

"There a ‘hadas malak’ = RULER OF FOREIGN LANDS = HYKSOS
who did not know of Joseph,

‘qum’ = ROSE UP IN ENMITY AGAINST Egypt .. and spoke to his people:

'Look, of the people of the children of Israel is many and more than us. Well on we want to dampen them with cunning, that of their will not become so many’”

"hadas" means generally new but it can also be translated as FOREIGN. In Yeremiah31:31 Hesekiel11:19 and Psalm33:3 it means primarily different, unknown, strange. In Deutoronomy32:17 "hadas" even means an unknown, strange and FOREIGN religion. Yesaya7:17 uses the same Hebrew word "malak" for a certain Ruler of Foreign Lands: The Ruler of Assur!

The Book of Jubilees Chapter 46 Verse 6 reveals an earlier attempt of the Canaanites of Assur in 1750 BC to invade Egypt:

"Because Makamaron (Makamaron in latin, Memkeron in ethiopian, Magron in SeferHaj1238), the King of Canaan, when he inhabited/occupied the land Assur, fought in the valley with the King of Egypt. And he killed him there and chased after the Egyptians until he reached the Gate of Ermon (Heropolis). And he was not able to enter because a second new king was King for Egypt and he was stronger than him ..

Assur/Ashur as the location of origin of the Canaanite 'Hyksos' Pharaohs is confirmed by Egyptologist Manfred Bietak's excavated evidence: Based particularly on temple architecture, Bietak argues for religious practices of the Hyksos at Avaris defining the "spiritual home" of the Hyksos as "in northernmost Syria and northern Mesopotamia" which matches the region Assur.

"qum": Deutoronomy22:26 Psalm3:2 Psalm68:2 Isaiah14:22 Isaiah28:21 and Amos7:9 all use "qum" as 'rising up in emnity against' somebody.

CONCLUSION:

The Bible even demands to translate "hadas malak" as Ruler of Foreign Lands or Hyksos and "qum" as rising up as enemy against.

Background explanations are provable on www.IsraelinEgypt.com/Hyksos

Here comes the question for the experts in this group:

If these both cites will literally be confirmed by not yet but in future identified Qumran Fragments of Exodus 1:8 and Jubilees 46,14 it couldn’t be ignored anymore - even not by Leading antibiblical Archeoligists - that two ancient sources of 200 BC confirm the Canaanites as ruler in the Egypt of the Second Intermediate Period having enslaved Israel 1729 BC.

Are there still as many unidentified Qumran fragments left that I can hope for the chance that this possibly will happen in the next decades? How are the chances?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

// Strict Bible Chronology (Dr. Roger Liebi) the Book of Jubilees identifies 1729 BC as the year of a Canaanite arising in enmity as new and foreign ruler over Egypt and enslaving Israel. //

I reckon with a short stay in Egypt proper, 215 years, and that the Exodus was in 1510 BC (Roman martyrology for 25th December). This puts Jacob's moving to Egypt into the year 1725 BC.

Does Dr. Roger Liebi prefer George Syncellus over the Roman martyrology?

Stefan Clasemann

Auteur / Admin

Hans-Georg Lundahl I invite You to study his chronology on www.IsraelinEgypt.com/Chronology (for deeper interest links are integrated) It’s not about prefering anything, it’s about detecting bible falsifications regarding its figures & maths and following without any compromises the Word of God regarding its full amount of included time data without manipulating or ignoring one single number.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I am sorry, but that is the agenda for ANY Biblical chronology, and I was asking which one you prefer among existing ones. I know Ussher (Jewish calendar chronology has a "reduced Ussher" due to shorting the "intertestamental period), Roman martyrology (from Historia scholastica, from St. Jerome) and George Syncellus.

Or is his one another new take? Dr. Roger Liebi's?

Stefan Clasemann

Auteur / Admin

Yes. All known Chronologies ignore or change biblical time figures (eg. by parallelizing reign times). Dr. Liebi is Europe’s most respected OT Translator (Schlachter2000) and proves that this is unnecessary and inadmissable. The complete amount of the entire amount of biblical time figures does work out fine and matches all essential archeological evidence (eg. Jericho).

Simply check the maths. And it’s proved by over 100 exemplars of archeological evidence discovered and elaborated in my work on www.IsraelinEgypt.com

The Word of God tells You to "prove all things and hold fast that which is good." 1Thess5:21

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Could you instead of linking to the global extent of your work link to and mention one Biblical time figure where Roman martyrology goes wrong and how this is corrected by Dr. Liebi?

"The complete amount of the entire amount of biblical time figures does work out fine and matches all essential archeological evidence (eg. Jericho)."

You might be referring to the carbon 14 dating 1550 BC, by Kenyon?

Stefan Clasemann

Auteur / Admin

I‘m sorry Hans-Georg but this is not a debating forum for different chronologies. If You reject to study and prove Dr. Liebi‘s first and only unfalsified rediscovered strictly biblical chronology You can try to debate with HIM while rejecting to study it beforehand.

Stefan Clasemann

Auteur / Admin

With ME You can only discuss my over 100 discovered archeological evidence exemplars proving this Strict Bible Chronology being the right one but only AFTER you’ve studied and proved all evidence in my work

Stefan Clasemann

Auteur / Admin

because Your debate attempts only bore & bother the ones in this group who HAVE studied the chronology and the complete amount of confirming & proving evidence in my work, thanks for understanding this.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

In other words, the carbon dates of archaeology are to you:

• relevant for the chronology
• and to be taken as given by archaeologists?

For instance, no reinterpreting 1550 BC in carbon to 1470 BC in real time, or things like that, allowed?

Btw, I'd be happy to take a debate with Dr. Liebi on it if you have his contact info.

No contact info

was given. I have tried to contact Dr. Liebi by separately looking him up. He was not in the group when I looked today. A freemason was, so I left the group and unfriended Clasemann.

Informations concernant la suppression de votre commentaire

Vous pourrez voir ces informations jusqu’au 19 oct. 2021.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

1 octobre, 14:33

// Strict Bible Chronology (Dr. Roger Liebi) the Book of Jubilees identifies 1729 BC as the year of a Canaanite arising in enmity as new and foreign ruler over Egypt and enslaving Israel. //

I reckon with a short stay in Egypt proper, 215 years, and that the Exodus was in 1510 BC (Roman martyrology for 25th December). This puts Jacob's moving to Egypt into the year 1725 BC.

Does Dr. Roger Liebi prefer George Syncellus over the Roman martyrology?

Règles du groupe non respectées

1Only topic - Israel in Egypt - related input
only topic - ancient literal or archeological evidence of Israel in Egypt - related input, questions or answers please, thankyou Voir moins

If he places such a weight on chronological questions, I can't see how my point on the chronology of Israel's Exodus is NOT related to Israel in Egypt. It can be added I am at present neither contesting nor confirming the main point, Chanaanites being Hyksos invaders and oppressors.

He pretended I was perfectly free to contact Dr. Liebi, but provided no help for doing so./HGL

Somewhat Sectarian Style, bis

HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS: Somewhat Sectarian Style, Semel · Somewhat Sectarian Style, bis · Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl: No Answer from Dr. Liebi, So Far? · Stefan Claesemann tries to take it in private with me · Creation vs. Evolution : Let's Carbon Test Stefan Claesemann's Chronology · Correcting the Test

Stefan Clasemann

Admin

AHMOSE‘s STORM STELA & THE TEN PLAGUES
1606 BC (Bible) (Graf: '1530-1516'BC) (Helck: '1516-1505'BC)

Ten Plagues: Southern Pharaoh Ahmose I initiates in his 11th to 22nd reign year a Storm Stele documenting an environmental disaster with the biblical Plagues, Storms, destroyed Temples, and Darkness.

2014: Nadine Moeller and Robert Ritter identified the Storm Stela text as the description of the Egyptian impacts of the massive volcano Explosion of Santorini and recommend correcting the reign time of Ahmose I ('1531 BC') closer to the Santorini Eruption 1620-1600 (9).

This leads to eliminating c. 75 non-existing years in the Second Intermediate Period of Egyptian History the so-called "dark period of uncertain speculative estimates" in egyptology.

THE AHMOSE STORM STELA AND THE TEN PLAGUES

Another exciting archaeological example of biblical evidence is the Storm Stele introduced in the documentary of Simcha Jacobovici on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM7njJuarrg. The Storm Stele of Ahmose I is seen as an eye-witness report and clear archaeological confirmation of the Santorini Eruption by Radio Carbon Experts who date the Santorini Eruption in the time around the biblical year of the Ten Plagues 1606 BC. This leads to the recommendation of Moeller and Ritter in 2014 to redate the time of Ahmoses I reign into this time which proves what also the Bible does prove in this work - that about 75 years of the Second Intermediate Period are highly speculative wrong time estimations and a misleading creation of non-existing time in Egyptian history (see Table Chronology in Chapter Chronology and Footnotes 2-6). The Storm Stela describes a great storm striking Egypt during this time, destroying tombs, temples and Pyramids in the Theban region and the work of restoration ordered by the king. It tells about evidenced Santorini Eruption effects like unnatural rain, unnatural loud noises, thunder lightning, a great storm and Egypt enveloped in darkness. „God“ manifested his power is an unusual Egyptian formulation, obviously not meaning one of the many Egyptian deities, which are always concretely identified by their name if not used a general plural for them.

SYNCHRONICITY OF THE BIBLE AND THE STORM STELA

Bible: God passed judgement on the Gods of Egypt
Storm Stela: "Then His Majesty said 'How these (events) surpass the power of the great god and the wills of the divinities .. the God manifested his power."
Bible: YHWH says I will destroy all their gods
Storm Stela: A huge storm is destroying tombs, temples and Pyramids The statues of the Gods of Egypt were toppled to the ground
Geologists: Results of Santorini Earthquake Storm and Volcanic hail
Bible: Egypt was struck by a hail made up of fire and ice mingled together
Storm Stela: A great unique storm, unnatural rain, unnatural loud noises, thunder lightning
Geologists: Vulcanic hail rain would be a mixture of ice and burning ash
Ypuwer Papyrus: mentions raining fire and ice according to Simcha Jacobivici
Bible: A three days darkness "you can touch" comes over the land
Storm Stela: A great darkness of (not readable) days comes over the land with no one able to light the torch anywhere.
Geologists: The Santorini Volcanic Eruption Ash Cloud creates a darkness "you can touch"
Picture: Ahmose‘s Storm Stela

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"The radiocarbon date range for the start of his reign is 1570–1544 BC, the mean point of which is 1557 BC."

From wiki of Ahmose I.

As this carbon date coincides with the carbon date for Jericho's relevant abandonment, 1550 BC, as per Kenyon, it makes sense if the real date coincides with the real date for Jericho's taking, namely 1470 BC. In other words, that the carbon 14 level back then was 99.037 pmC, giving an added 80 years.

My objection on the other topic can be rephrased : how do you propose to prove either Biblically or historically that it really was in 1550 BC that he died?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

As to Santorini eruption carbon dated to 1606, see this:

1521 B. Chr.
98.184 pmC, so dated as 1671 B. Chr.
1498 B. Chr.
98.555 pmC, so dated as 1618 B. Chr.

In other words a carbon date 1606 BC is close enough to carbon dates I would predict for 1510 BC.

Care to guess?

Both my comments were taken away before next login.

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Aujourd’hui, à 15:11

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Hans-Georg Lundahl

14 octobre 2020

6500 ya = 4500 BC. I presume this is carbon years:

2108 B. Chr.
0.730966 pmC/100, so dated as 4708 B. Chr.
2086 B. Chr.
0.743062 pmC/100, so dated as 4536 B. Chr.
2064 B. Chr.
0.754934 pmC/100, so dated as 4364 B. Chr.

In other words, safely or nearly so, between 2108 and 2064 BC, somewhere around 2086 BC.

Just before the birth of Abraham.

https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html

"Guess what my ancestors did?"

You mean ancestors before a certain Joseph?

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Hans-Georg Lundahl

January 14 2020

https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/.../two-magic-wand...
CREAVSEVOLU.BLOGSPOT.COM
Two "Magic Wand" quotes

Still ongoing, 26.III.2022:

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Context:

group status!
If Tolkien is successfully canonized, what do you think would be his patronage ?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Counter-Biblical alternative realities ...
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2022/03/tolkiens-elves-are-not-key-to-cains.html

Debating CMI's video with Roger M Pearlman

HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS: Debating CMI's video with Roger M Pearlman · Creation vs. Evolution: Carbon 14 Speeds for Diverse Creationist Scenarios · Ice Age Maximum, 500 After the Flood? · Flood to Genesis 14, Roman Martyrology's Chronology, Two Scenarios (Technical) · What Am I Doing with "How Much Faster" Calculations?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

How many here disagree with CMI, and consider Neanderthals were pre-Flood men?
For context:

Neanderthals & Cavemen?
5th of Aug 2021 | Creation Ministries International
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFf9nwmEN7Q

Roger M Pearlman

we (Pearlman YeC series) agree they are post global flood 'Mabul', as the caves they are associated with formed due to that epoch. The ice ages setting in cause and effect due to the Mabul.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• 1) no real indication I know of that Neanderthals were in ice age
• 2) I think caves could also have formed in creation week, as land got up, and that in some cases caves could have formed around manmade structures made by Neanderthals (not when they made hashtags in cave ...)

Roger M Pearlman

either way i suspect many of those prior to the global flood were a lot more like Neanderthal in features than modern man, due to longevity, greater size (mass)..

Hans-Georg Lundahl

We have Neanderthals and modern man coliving in carbon dated 45 000 to 40 000 BP in Europe.

Neanderthals are different from Cro-Magnons in genes, not just in gene expression due to longevity.

I take Neanderthals to be pre-Flood, because:

• no time for them to develop separate features after Flood and then disappear before 40 000 BP in carbon dates
• some Neanderthals, from dental calculus, were vegetarians, and some ate both woolly rhino and men (like before the Flood vegetarian diet was standard for just men, and cannibalism seems to be one candidate for what sins drew down God's anger - especially if marginal cannibalism in some rough living people was one of the milder sins, with even worse ones in Henoch in Nod)
• the parts of the genome surviving in us exclude both mitochondriae and Y-chromosomes, suggesting passing through a bottle-neck with only métis - on board the Ark, for instance.

Also, hashtags suggest that Neanderthals were capable of symbolic expression, but no cave paintings from them suggests, any paintings they may have made got washed out by the Flood, not so with carving for instance a hashtag.

Answered twice

by Roger M Pearlman, leading me to two threads, a and b

a

Roger M Pearlman

Yes, key would be if they are from, or before, 'genetic bottleneck Adam', aka Noach''

was there enough genetic material to test for that and have Neanderthal been tested for that?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roger M Pearlman It has been tested that the Y chromosomes are deviant from "modern" man, that is from post-Flood man.

b

Roger M Pearlman

In the 350 years from the 1656 Mabul global flood till the founding of Egypt just after the passing of Noach, the population went from 8 to x. 70 main family groups that began to disperse from Bavel at the approx end of The ice ages in 1996 when Abraham 48 +1948 =1996

x =50 k?

Keep in mind 'founder effect' that allowed rapid speciation and adaptation early off the ark.

Also how longevity can be a factor in features.

if 5% of modern human genetic info is linked to Neanderthal, Neanderthal may be from one of the 3 daughters in law of Noach, or a grandson like Cain.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roger M Pearlman "In the 350 years from the 1656 Mabul global flood till the founding of Egypt just after the passing of Noach,"

I agree only that there was a global Flood and that Noah died 350 years after it. Egypt was founded way later, Babel was begun after passing of Noah and ended at birth of Peleg 401 after Flood (or little before that), while Egypt's founder Narmer and Abraham lived about half a millennium later even than that.

"the population went from 8 to x. 70 main family groups that began to disperse from Bavel at the approx end of The ice ages in 1996 when Abraham 48 +1948 =1996"

The ice age ended c. 350 after Flood, at Younger Dryas, just before Babel. But this was more than 650 years before Abraham was born.

"x =50 k?"

It could have been way more than that.

Google Creation vs. Evolution and "Holy Koolaid Pretended Flood to Sodom Chronology Excludes a Sodom or Gomorrah of Half a Million People" (FB has inserted an automatised spam mark for the blog!)

"Keep in mind 'founder effect' that allowed rapid speciation and adaptation early off the ark."

The founder effect would have had more time to differentiate Neanderthals and Denisovans the 2242 years before the Flood.

Especially as they are, at most recent carbon dated 40 000 BP (there are Neanderthal culture indicators in a Cave in Gibraltar more recent, but without the actual physical remains of Neanderthal people there), and 350 after Flood we have a carbon date of 9600 BC (earliest layers of Göbekli Tepe).

"Also how longevity can be a factor in features."

Now, the fact is, Neanderthals and Denisovans have distinctions in genes, as tested by Svante Pääbo.

"if 5% of modern human genetic info is linked to Neanderthal, Neanderthal may be from one of the 3 daughters in law of Noach, or a grandson like Cain."

What do you mean like a "grandson like Cain"?

If 60 % of Neanderthal genes survive, and in each human who is not African gives about 4 % of his genome, pure Neanderthals may have been ancestral TO a daughter in law of Noah.

Roger M Pearlman And one more thing ... Neanderthals and Denisovans both disappeared after same carbon year, 40 000 BP, so presumably after same actual year too - why the big extinction, if not the Flood?

Both were present in very large areas.

Roger M Pearlman

Hans-Georg Lundahl while i have not researched the Neanderthal issue, and would need to know exactly how defined and how much empirical examples (remains.. test results) i am sure we disagree on the timing of Abraham and the founding of Egypt, I have z 1657 founding of Gobekli Tepe at the start of The ice ages. 40k YA consensus is toward the end of the Ice ages and early Abraham.

So assuming they have the relative dating correct Neanderthal till at least the approx. birth f Abraham.

Ur founded about 200 years after The Mabul, and almost 100 years pre Abraham.

Abraham studied 20 years under/with Noach.

The start of the dispersion from Bavel was 1996.

Sodom founded that very year.

Noach passed on 2006.

Mizrayim was a good deal older than Abraham.

Sodom destroyed in 2047, well after Abraham visited Egypt in 2024.

we can respectfully agree to disagree.

I did not have time to fairly study your comments enough to know exactly what else we can agree on, once i take them all into account.

I am working on the SPIRAL YeC cosmology model, good week, rm

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roger M Pearlman "Mizrayim was a good deal older than Abraham."

As disagreeing respectfully, I'd say he was long dead before Abraham was born, and he was NOT the first pharao.

"Sodom destroyed in 2047, well after Abraham visited Egypt in 2024."

You put Abraham's defense of Sodom when, Genesis 14? I put it c. 19 years before he was visited by three angels, since 20 years before birth of Isaac. But there is a leeway from anywhere between voyage to Egypt, when he was 75 to birth of Ishmael, when he was 86.

"1657 founding of Gobekli Tepe at the start of The ice ages. 40k YA consensus is toward the end of the Ice ages and early Abraham."

Respectfully, you have a carbon dating problem.

40 000 BP is sometimes carbon dated, and presumes an original pmC value of little above 1 pmC.

Göbekli Tepe is carbon dated, from charcoals lower and higher than the levels of stamped earth buildings. It's earliest date is 9600 BC, presuming an original value of little above 40 pmC, it's latest one is 8600 BC, presuming an original value of a little below 50 pmC.

Your best argument would be that 40 000 BP would be towards the end of the whole range of dates for ice ages, but the problem is, those not carbon dated don't squeeze in on the same scale.

"i have not researched the Neanderthal issue"

Thank you for the candour. Best wishes for your week too!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Roger M Pearlman Wait, is this your position?

"40k YA consensus is toward the end of the Ice ages and early Abraham."

It doesn't much matter if you put the life of Abraham in your or in my chronology, but the fact is, between his birth and Genesis 14, there is between 75 and 86 years.

Now, Genesis 14 mainly involves Sodom, but also Asason Tamar, aka En Geddi.

For the Mesopotamian attack on Amorrheans of En Geddi, we do have a carbon date, since reed mats from evacuation of En Geddi with temple treasures carbon date to 3500 BC. On my view, that is minus the date 1935 BC, so 1565 extra years.

Extra years going down from 35 000 to 1565 correspond to carbon 14 proportions in atmosphere going up from 1.45 pmC to 82.753 pmC.

In c. 80 years. In 80 years, the normal decay rate is down to 99.037 % of previous level, and therefore the replacement rate is 0.963 pmC.

82.753 - 1.45 (I don't even bother to bring this down to 99.037 % of itself) is a replacement rate of 81.303 pmC in 80 years or 84.427 times as quick production of C14 as now is normal.

My highest ratio is of 10 - 11 times as quick. It has a bearing on how much radiation hit earth and therefore if one could survive it or not.