HGL's F.B. writings: Less moved by his talking down to me ...

Presumed Ignorant, Because YEC! · Less moved by his talking down to me ...

Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg Lundahl, You are correct on several steps. N-14 in the atmosphere is bombarded by cosmic radiation that produces C-14, and the process is not constant, but variable. Geochemists have known this for decades. Unfortunately, YEC organizations and false teachers claim that scientists assume the production is constant, but this is false. Your second point is also correct, that the rate of decay – the half-life – is constant at 5,730 years. Your third point is also correct, that trees or plants which get their C-14 from the atmosphere, will have 100% pMC (percent Modern Carbon). However, there can be a "reservoir effect" that sometimes animals or plants will get carbon dioxide that is less than 100% pMC, and this must be accounted for. Another example from what you mentioned is marine animals which get their C-14 from carbon dioxide dissolved in the oceans, and this is less than 100%. This offset must be accounted for, as you said with an "instant age". The radiocarbon community has now prepared multiple calibration curves to apply to C-14 dating. These are the standard one for the northern hemisphere, one for "marine" calibration, and in some a "southern" calibration for the southern hemisphere.

This last—and most critical step—for C-14 dating you missed, probably because it is never mentioned by the YEC false teachers. It seems like they don't want you to know about it, so I cannot fault you. This diagram shows what you have described as the concept for using the C-14 pMC. (continued in next post)
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg Lundahl, The first part of the calibration curve is derived from tree rings, at covers 1950 and going back 14,000 tree-ring count, and years. Geochemists selected 1950, because the atmosphere still contained little C-14 from the atomic bomb testing, and on a 50-year, half-century Since individual trees live maybe 100 to 300 years, geologists (specifically dendrochronologists – tree-ring scientists) do a step called Cross-Dating to tie the tree-ring growth from living trees to dead tree trunks buried in the mud of rivers in Europe and elsewhere. Tree-ring width depends on wet vs dry seasons, and the climate pattern of a dead tree can be matched to the same growing seasons as the living tree. Those two trees will have the same quantity of C-14 in the matching rings. See the next post.

The radiocarbon-dating group of geochemists has been updating the calibration curve in 4 to 7 year cycles, with the present one named IntCal20, released in 2020. I will show a segment below.
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg, This describes how tree rings growing in the same summers will have the same quantity of C-14.
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg, This is the longest set of data that goes into the calibration curve. This is 4,310 samples of German oat species with 14,000 years of continuous tree-ring growth in Europe. The blue lines demonstrate that the production of C-14 was variable because the line is squiggly, but within narrow limits, and the half-life of C-14 was basically constant. Notice that the very loud and noisy claim by YECs that Noah's Flood 4,300 years ago changed everything, but had absolutely no apparent effect on the oak trees growing in Europe over the last 14,000 years. Have you ever seen this data that goes into the calibration curve?
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg,
This is the same data set from today back to only 4,000 years. The Dead Sea Scrolls had ~77 pMC which yields a calendar year age of 100 to 150 years BC. This is one piece of evidence that the Scrolls were written before Jesus lived.

Here you can more clearly see the variable production of C-14 in the upper atmosphere by the cosmic rays. Does it bother you that YECs continue spreading the lie that geochemists assume the production is constant? Can you see why the science community, both Christians and naturalists, observe YECs as dishonest, and bringing shame on Christianity?
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg,
This is the reconstruction of mastadon bones discovered in Glen Ellen, IL, in 1963, and donated to Wheaton College. The geology Professor had a radiocarbon analysis done, and the next post has the results.
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg, This is the calibration curve IntCal13 for 12,000 to 14,000 calendar years BP. It is composed of 276 data points from Heidelberg, the lab in Germany with the Oak species for Cross-Dating. The mastodon bone has C-14 content that is 11,700 +/-60 years BP. Using the IntCal13 calibration, this evidence is that the mastodon lived in Illinois 13,500+/-60 years ago.

The variability of C-14 production is evident. Notice that these oak trees were growing in Europe back to 14,000 years ago, and the C-14 got into the tree rings at that time. Over this 13,500 years, and C-14 decayed away to ~27% of MC. See the next post.

Please note VERY well. The calendar years from 1950 back to 13,500 years ago come from COUNTING the tree rings, NOT from the half-life of C-14. The mastodon bones have the same amount of C-14 as the tree rings that grew in Europe 13,500 years ago.

Have you ever heard this before?
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg, This is the diagram like the one for the Dead Sea Scrolls, with the y-axis as %MC or pMC.
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg,
This is the IntCal13 calibration for 2000 to 4000 calendar years BP. The calendar years BC are the scale at the top. Note that this segment of the calibration curve has data from 6 different labs! 161 data points come from Heidelberg, and the rest from Seattle, Belfast, Pretoria, Livermore, and Irvine. This is the calibration for the Dead Sea Scrolls, and for wood recovered from Hezekiah's Tunnel in Jerusalem. Tourists are permitted to go through it. This is ~800 BC, consistent with the Bible.

Have YECs ever explained this to you? I don't think so, and therefore I do not blame you for missing this absolutely critical step, to learn the truth of radiocarbon dating. To skip this is to deceive innocent people in Church pews.
Hans-Georg Lundahl: I think we already had a round on calibration.

Perhaps you were distracted by David K. Muncie and Affez Tlemsanix.

Look up this one, and then go from there to "He did some answering though"

Ken Wolgemuth Understood the Argument
https://hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2024/02/ken-wolgemuth-understood-argument.html
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Ken Wolgemuth "The calendar years from 1950 back to 13,500 years ago come from COUNTING the tree rings, NOT from the half-life of C-14."

Just in case you missed it.

You do not have ONE tree with 13 500 rings. In order to count tree rings from before the tree you already know the age of, you need to check matches. Even in today's world, with ample samples, matches seem to my eye sketchy.

The further back you go, the more fragmentary and the more rare they are. At a certain point, if not every match, at least some, could have been inserted more recently or more into the past, and at that point, it becomes circular with Carbon 14 where you insert it.

For when (on my view, and if I am right) carbon 14 was rising, this will cause false matches. Hence, a false count of rings.
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Ken Wolgemuth "This describes how tree rings growing in the same summers will have the same quantity of C-14."

Initially. After some time C-14 will even out between rings, due to contamination, right?
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Ken Wolgemuth "This last—and most critical step—for C-14 dating you missed, probably because it is never mentioned by the YEC false teachers.'

Would you VERY much mind quitting this tone of talking down to people?

If I were (as I wish to be) paid for what I write for YEC, and I have been writing partly on this topic since 2001, you would be decrying me as one of the false teachers. To someone else whose intelligence you would be heavily insulting.

Will you say "sorry" or shall I get angry? People like you have been so overprotective of me, it has ruined my life. If you continue this road, there is a curse on you.
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Ken Wolgemuth "Have you ever seen this data that goes into the calibration curve?"

Again, talking down to me, again, presuming I'm ignorant.

Again, if you continue, you are under a curse.
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Ken Wolgemuth "Does it bother you that YECs continue spreading the lie that geochemists assume the production is constant?"

If some do, it's because they have shallow information on the other side, and so have you.

"Can you see why the science community, both Christians and naturalists, observe YECs as dishonest, and bringing shame on Christianity?"

This is their interest.

Admitting sincerity => dealing with actual arguments (like the Bereans and unlike the majority of Jews in Thessalonica).
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Ken Wolgemuth "Have YECs ever explained this to you? I don't think so, and therefore I do not blame you for missing this absolutely critical step, to learn the truth of radiocarbon dating."

Again, talking down to me.

You are under a curse.

"To skip this is to deceive innocent people in Church pews."

No, false religions (including Deep Time) have no claim to the attention of the faithful to yet another and yet another and yet another argument just because they think it's the silver bullet.

In fact I did know about the argument, you presumed I didn't, this sours relations between us, but worse, people hearing you about me will also have their relations to me soured, and I don't have the resources to absolutely circumvent all targetting.

That's why you are under a curse, for as long as you keep up this talking down.
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg Lundahl, I am sorry to have offended you, as I did as best I could, explain the IntCal13 calibration curve. Have you seen it before? I will say it again, I certainly don't blame you for presenting what you heard from other YECs. I just hope you can understand the calibration process.
Ken
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Ken Wolgemuth I understand the calibration process you do.

You know I do a different one, with Biblical events calibrating associated organic material.

You seem not just oblivious to the previous time we talked about it, but genuinely certain, not just that I am wrong, but that I'm a victim. I actually am a victim of what people like you are arranging socially around me.

If you quit, the curse is lifted.
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg Lundahl, I don't think so, because the C-14 around are not floating around. They are combined in the Canton and hydrogen bonds in the cellulose of the wood. As technology improves, geochemists are now using wood from a single year, rather that 5 years. They have discovered a few years when there was a measurable higher spike.
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Ken Wolgemuth "are not floating around."

Extra neutrons can get from one atom to another.

That's why I don't use "diamonds are a Creationist's best friend" ...
Before the following: my responses above disappeared:
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg, I am so sorry. How can I write my concerns? Would you be willing to have a Zoom session to change to having a conversation?
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg Lundahl, We don't know the age of a tree except by counting the rings. Of course, one tree does not live for 13,500 years. That is why the Cross-Dating is an important part of the process.
Ken Wolgemuth: Hans-Georg Lundahl, Where is your description of the Biblical events and organic matter. I'd like to read it again. Can you email it to me so I can find it in the future also? wolgemuth2@aol.com
Hans-Georg Lundahl: OK, you may be on your way out of the curse, zoom is impossible, I don't have that.

You are factually wrong that "we don't know the age of the tree except" since trees can also be carbon dated. When it comes to old matches carbon dating the general layout of the find, perhaps the tree itself becomes more and more paramount.

Do you read Spanish?

Because I think my best summing up of Biblical identifications was on Spanish quora, mirrored on my Spanish blog.

En lengua romance en Antimodernism y de mis caminaciones: La datación carbónica—¿en conflito con la cronología bíblica?
https://enfrancaissurantimodernism.blogspot.com/2023/11/la-datacion-carbonica-conflito-con-la.html

En lengua romance en Antimodernism y de mis caminaciones: ¿Y las dudas sobre los faraones eligidos?
https://enfrancaissurantimodernism.blogspot.com/2023/11/y-las-dudas-sobre-los-faraones-eligidos.html

En lengua romance en Antimodernism y de mis caminaciones: ¿Como sabemos si un faraón existió y cuando?
https://enfrancaissurantimodernism.blogspot.com/2023/12/como-sabemos-si-un-faraon-existio-y.html

En lengua romance en Antimodernism y de mis caminaciones: Babel y Göbekli Tepe
https://enfrancaissurantimodernism.blogspot.com/2023/11/babel-y-gobekli-tepe.html