On Praying to or for departed and involving statues

BS

It's actually pointless to argue with Catholics.

I guess if I made my own book then I could definitely my whole argument off of that book and if I appeal to that book as my authority over the Bible then I could make the Bible say whatever I wanted it to say.

JL

HGL

You have gotten me dizzy but not by dazzling brilliance.

The conversation has gotten defensive and nonsensical.

We are giving you scripture (God's Word) to show you that what Catholics do displeases God.

Your answer is to deny, deny, deny that that is what you are doing when clearly, that is exactly what you are doing.

You pray TO Saints. (I gave you a prayer entitled "To Saint Jude").

You kneel before statues. You said it is no different than a family photo. NOT!

You said Jesus doesn't use the word repetitive. Fine. You pick a word to describe a prayer that is read, chanted, over and over again. What was Jesus saying in that scripture?

Προσευχόμενοι Praying
δὲ but
μὴ not
βατταλογήσητε YOU should multiply words
ὥσπερ as-even
οἱ the
ἐθνικοί, nationals,
δοκοῦσιν they are imagining
γὰρ for
ὅτι that
ἐν in
τῇ the
πολυλογίᾳ much speaking
αὐτῶν of them
εἰσακουσθήσονται· they will be heard.

Many words, multiply words, vain repetitions, over and over again. These are the thoughts conveyed by the Greek text.

Do you really think it means not to make long prayers?

There are some very long prayers recorded in the Bible that pleases God very much. Jesus sometimes prayed all night.

It is the type of many words that bores God, REPETITIONS, not our heartfelt petitions, that displeases him.

I fear you do not get the sense of what we say because you choose not to really think about what God wants. You only consider what your church wants and that's good enough for you.

BS

The Catholic ignorance is deep.

2 Timothy 1:16-18 ESV
May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me earnestly and found me- [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day!-and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

Where does this constitute praying to the dead?
Shew we!

http://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_timothy/1-16.htm
2 Timothy 1:16 Lexicon: The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often…

Please show me where someone prays to someone that left earth!

The only time it is ever mentioned is when it is in context with sorcery, witch craft, divination, ect.

Twist not the scriptures lest you be like Satan!

CF

BS
It's actually pointless to argue with Catholics.

I guess if I made my own book then I could definitely my whole argument off of that book and if I appeal to that book as my authority over the Bible then I could make the Bible say whatever I wanted it to say....

i have to lol cause that about sums it up with catholics .
and its by there own admission that they say and do it and say its wrong ..

BS

CF I'm with you. I have just gotten to the point now where it's more about showing them how wrong it is than anything.

JL

Not all Catholics.

I live in a Spanish community primarily Catholic. They are so sweet and humble and love to learn about the Bible.

Where they have trouble is that their whole families are Catholic and they are very close knit. It is hard to break away from their traditions, but some do.

CF

BS i know I get like that sometimes to..they are stubborn in there ways just like the other religions

BS

JL you're right. I sometimes forget that when I use the term "Catholic" that I need to define it so people don't get the wrong idea.

Although I am completely against labels. I believe you either seek out the truth or you live a lie.

JL

HGL

Statues and false gods are the exact same thing! That is my point.

If you pray to a person other that the Father, you are making someone your god, even if they are a Saint.

That is wrong.

"You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.

You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion." Exodus 20:4, 5.

HGL

JL thank you for the translation:

βατταλογήσητε YOU should multiply words

Multiply words and repeat same words is not the same thing.

JL "Many words, multiply words,"

Yes.

"vain repetitions, over and over again."

No.

"These are the thoughts conveyed by the Greek text."

The former yes, the latter no.

JL "Do you really think it means not to make long prayers?

"There are some very long prayers recorded in the Bible that pleases God very much. Jesus sometimes prayed all night.

"It is the type of many words that bores God, REPETITIONS, not our heartfelt petitions, that displeases him."

Christ probably all night through repeated the words of King David.

BS "Where does this constitute praying to the dead?"

FOR, not too.

"May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus"

Mercy to the household.

"may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day!-"

Mercy on that day to him ... it is in prayers for the dead that judgement day is mentioned.

"Please show me where someone prays to someone that left earth!"

Luke 16. Abraham had already left earth millennia ago and he was even still in limbo.

JL "Statues and false gods are the exact same thing!"

No.

"If you pray to a person other that the Father, you are making someone your god, even if they are a Saint."

If you adore some person other than Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

We are not allowed to do that with saints.

"Exodus 20:4, 5"

On your theory, dulia of saints would be licit if divorced from images.

However, back when Moses wrote what God spoke, God could not be depicted. Since 2000 years, that has changed.

JL

to one part

HGL No. Some of the words in one prayer is recorders in John 17

HGL

JL - the words are not sufficient for hours of a prayer, and we do not have a record saying He quoted nothing or very little from King David.

They were probably recorded as standing out from the psalms.

BS

HGL this crap with these circular arguments need to stop. We don't need a bunch of junk being typed that doesn't address anything nor does it address the topic. That's not how you debate.

You Catholics always do this crap. You bounce around from subject to subject and never really address a subject with any evidence.

You always go off of what you think it means instead of letting it speak for itself.

This does not constitute praying to or praying for the dead.

οικω noun - dative singular masculine
oikos oy'-kos: a dwelling (more or less extensive, literal or figurative); by implication, a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively) -- home, house(-hold), temple

http://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_timothy/1-16.htm

No where does that constitute praying to or for the dead.

Check mate.

2 Timothy 1:16 Lexicon: The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains;

HGL

to JL

Here is "many words" in action:

Let our book be concluded with a prayer. O Jupiter Capitolinus, O Jupiter Stator! O Mars Gradivus, author of the Roman name! O Vesta, guardian of the eternal fire! O all ye deities who have exalted the present magnitude of the Roman empire to a position of supremacy over the world, guard, preserve, and protect, I entreat and conjure you, in the name of the Commonwealth, our present state, our present peace, [our present prince[104]!] And when he shall have completed a long course on earth, grant him successors to the remotest ages, and such as shall have abilities to support the empire of the world as powerfully as we have seen him support it! All the just designs of our countrymen * * * *

Velleius Paterculus probably even dropped the pen when Christ said "do not"

HGL

to BS

"You Catholics always do this crap. You bounce around from subject to subject and never really address a subject with any evidence."

Actually, if you honestly think that and are not lying, you are handicapped when recognising relevance.

The point is, St Paul made ONE prayer for the household, and another one, referring to judgement day, for Onesiphorus himself, because Onesiphorus was deceased and his household was still alive.

Update

BS

This is not a prayer. It's a letter. How dumb does one person have to be?

2 Timothy 1:15-18 ESV
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes. [16] May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me earnestly and found me- [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day!-and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

Again, you have failed to prove your point.

2 Timothy 1:2 ESV
To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hey Hand my the Lord grant your great grandparents mercy for having anything to do with you bloodline.

See, that's not a prayer.

HGL

It is. And I thank you for it.

However, you failed to see St Paul was making different prayers for Onesiphorus' family and for himself. Still haven't adressed that.

It was also even a prayer for departed, since they are not alive anymore on earth, as far as I know.

It also involves an unnecessary clause, "for having anything to do with you[r] bloodline" - since men are not responsible for whom they bring about beyond the parental situation.

BS

👉You👈 Timothy - he prayers for and he longs to see.

2 Timothy 1:2-4 ESV
To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. [3] I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. [4] As I remember your tears, I long to see you, that I may be filled with joy.

His ancestors served God, he prayed for Timothy.

2 Timothy 1:5-7 ESV
I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well. [6] For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, [7] for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

Don't worry Han's we will get through this. I'm not giving up on you just yet

HGL

Quoting the bits and pieces which did not relate to Onesiphorus already being departed or "Lord grant mercy" being a prayer is irrelevant to the question at hand.

BS

Now reread it all at once Han's

2 Timothy 1:1-18 ESV

[Skipping, I am not taking BS as a task master.]

He is writing a letter to Timothy.

2 Timothy 1:16 ESV
May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains,

He is speaking it just as I gave you a illustration.

It is a letter written from one person to another.

It is not a prayer

It does not constitute praying to or for the dead.

HGL

BS, you are NOT just praying to God when you adress God in second person, but also when you say to someone other : "may God grant".

The one mentioning Onesiphorus himself was a very clear prayer for the departed.

BS

Ok, this is where you're on your own.

HGL

Btw, what you quoted about praying for Timothy for the sake of his just ancestors, is an explanation on the prayer for Onesiphorus' household.

I am with St Paul and Onesiphorus, since with the Catholic Church.

BS

What in the Hell would Mary need you or anyone else to pray for her about? She has everything God already promised to her. And what makes this even more ignorant is the fact that you Catholics think she's sinless so that's even more idiotic.

HGL

BS " What in the Hell would Mary need you or anyone else to pray for her about?"

I didn't say I was praying FOR her.

HGL

[Shared this and previous post so the co-authors could see it.]

BS

Or to her.

You take a letter written to a individual about praying for the individual that it's written to and you constitute it as praying to or for someone not on this Earth.

That's like me saying even though this bag doesn't have a label on it and it looks like sugar it's still ok to drink.

Again, another brainwashed Catholic with no solid foundational evidence to back any claim.

HGL

"You take a letter written to a individual about praying for the individual that it's written to and you constitute it as praying to or for someone not on this Earth."

Timothy is Onesiphorus? Don't think so.

St Paul is praying for three different people : Timothy, Onesiphorus' household, Onesiphorus himself.

You have still not adressed the evidence the prayer for Onesiphorus himself is FOR a deceased person, namely it being a separate one from prayers for his household and involving prayers about "mercy on that day".

The praying TO Her after She left earth was not about Onesiphorus, but about Abraham in Luke 16.

In case you flatter yourself by thinking me confused about what I said, check out the whole debate.

BS

Luke 16

par·a·ble
ˈperəb(ə)l/Submit
noun
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
synonyms: allegory, moral story/tale, fable, exemplum
"the parable of the prodigal son"

You're all over the place. You still have not used grammar, scripture, or any evidence to back any claim about praying to the dead. You have used misqouted scripture, parables, and made up Catholic dogma.

This really isn't a date at all with you, disproving you is easy all I have to do is let you talk and you disprove yourself, all Catholics do.

HGL

BS, where in any epistle is St Paul said to have prayed or saying a "may God grant" anything at all to "Onesiphorus with household"?

That is a very simple contextual question. It does not need deep points in Greek grammar.

Next question : if St Paul is always praying separately for Onesiphorus' household and for Onesiphorus, is that not because prayers for the living and prayers for the dead are liturgically and morally different?

Third question, isn't there also a place where he actually sends a greeting to the household, but not to Onesiphorus?

Fourth question: is there ANY place at all where St Paul sends a greeting to Onesiphorus himself?

Fifth question: if St Paul greets Onesiphorus' family but not himself, if he speakd of Onesiphorus' good deeds in past tense, isn't the simplest explanation that Onesiphorus already died, as a martyr or otherwise? I'd even say preferrably otherwise, since, if he had died a martyr, St Paul would instead have prayed "sancte Onesiphore ora pro nobis" but for this debate at this point I could leave this as not proven.

None of above questions needs special knowledge of Greek. We already know and agree that oikos means not the building but the household, family members in our sense and possibly also slaves.

As for Luke 16, it would seem Christ's other parables are realistic in the story, also we cannot take it for granted (at least it is not in the Bible) that it was a made up parable.

BS

HGL it's pointless even debating with you you never prove any points.

Parables- so when Christ says to pluck your eye out if it causes you to sin I guess you should do it then.

You have still yet to point any valid point in this argument with using the Bible.

HGL

BS "so when Christ says to pluck your eye out if it causes you to sin I guess you should do it then."

Are you using this against taking the six days as 6*24 hours too?

Are you lumping metaphor in a command together with content of a story?

Are you as far as that is concerned, lumping literality of commands together with literality of story (as if believing the Flood obliged you to never eat shrimps)?

But once again, on that one : you haven't proven your point. The previous parable in Luke 16 (but there is a non-parable between) is indeed not very certainly told for the literal truth of the events, but it is realistic. Stewards were in the Orient as they still are in the Orient capable of blatant favouritism. This implies that the next one if also a parable (but verses 14 to 18 are not parables, so final part need not be a parable just because 1 to 13 is one), should at least be a realistic one.

If there was no Dives who asked that of Abraham, anyone at least could have spoken to Abraham like that. Which is enough to prove my point.

"it's pointless even debating with you you never prove any points."

You wouldn't know a proof if it was big as a barn and one yard away, sorry to be personal, but you have been so more than once and this one was one too much, unpleasant "gent"!

Also, we do not have patristic unity on Dives and Lazarus being a parable. Pope St Gregory thinks the poor Lazarus was in fact the one Christ was resurrecting in Bethany.