On Honours to the Blessed Virgin

BS

What are some true facts we have to tell that the Roman Catholic Chruch is a cult?

Please no opinions, only facts.

WA

define a cult ...

BS

cult
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object made by man without inspiration from God.

I.e. following man's way over God's way.

This would be appealing to the Holy Bible as the main source of information to determine what is what.

Subthread

starts a bit down:

JF

Mary worship being taught as honoring God by loving his mother.

BS

Do you know where it says that in the Catholic book?

JF

I was a Catholic. Giving up my rosary and images was the hardest things i found to seperate from. It actually inflicts fear/anxiety.

BS

Amen, that God brought you out of it

JF

Amen.
Not a day goes by i don't go back to Bethel and thank Him for it.

BS

Can you show me where in the Catholic book it talks about worshipping Mary?

SJ

She can’t because offering latria (worship) to Mary is strictly forbidden in the Catholic Church.

HGL

BS - have you considered the criterium you stated "without inspiration from God"?

Holy Ghost is God and inspired the Blessed Virgin to say "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed".

SJ

If we are brothers and sisters of Christ, adopted into His family, and if Jesus is His mother, and if we are commanded to honor our father and mother, and
if Jesus never sinned which means He would have honored His mother giving us an example, then is it not logical that we honor her too?

CF

SJ
um no its not logical to honor a dead person scripture is against it...

the dead know nothing and there thoughts jealousy and evys have parished

its also not logical to worship each other...

scripture is against it

SJ

It is illogical to honor a dead person, but are the saved “dead” or alive in heaven?

As stated earlier, worship of anyone but God is forbidden in the Catholic Church.

BS

SJ do Catholics pray to Mary?

HGL just because someone is insipred by God doesn't mean that every word from that person is insipred by God.

People are not infallible.

SJ

Prayer is petitioning. Petitioning like asking a friend or a pastor to join you in prayer. In that sense, yes.

Praying to Mary because she individually has the power and authority to answer a prayer and fulfill it would be error.

Nobody claims that anyone is infallible in all they say. Please look up what is meant by papal infallibility.

BS

SJ can you show me one instance in the Bible where someone was prayed to or for after they left this earth?

SJ I was not addressing "papal infallibility"

I was proving my point in regards to determining what is acceptable as God's insipred truth and what's not.

Not every word someone says is God's insipred words.

SJ

If you can show me one instance where a follower of Jesus died.

CF

SJ u think praying to a dead person who knows nothing and can do nothing for u is logical?

i dont see how that could be of any benefit..

BS

SJ I'm not going to engage in a circular argument with you that's why I clarified by saying "left this earth" - now please address that question and that question alone.

Asking a question isn't addressing a question, it's avoiding a question.

JL

SJ

No. It is not acceptable form of honor.

To honor one's parents means to obey them and not expose their faults to others.

We don't erect statues to our parents or pray to them to intercede with God for us. That would change "honor" into "worship."

SJ

Well, you could have said “Stephen”, but I digress.

Not every aspect of the faith is contained in scripture.

Wait, we don’t ask our parents to pray for us? We don’t have pictures of our parents on our walls?

JL

SJ

1. A picture is memorabilia, not an object of veneration.

I don't kneel in front of that picture or feel it holds special powers to heal or hear me.

2. A parent, or anyone, can offer a group prayer to God,

BUT this is different than praying TO a dead person to intercede with God on our behalf.

Only Jesus can do that. Only Jesus is the Mediator between God and men.

Are you being silly or are you using this as a defense?

HGL

BS "just because someone is insipred by God doesn't mean that every word from that person is insipred by God."

Those said WHEN inspired by God, definitely yes.

JL "We don't erect statues to our parents OR pray to them to intercede with God for us."

To the second first : you never asked ma or pa to pray for you? That was, if they did, interceding with God for you.

As to statues, do you have photos in the wallet?

Even Kent Hovind used to have a photo with the comment "this is not my wife ... (pause) ... it is just a picture of her".

JL

HGL

You need to reread what I wrote. I assume English is not your native language. Something got lost in the translation. You have twisted and misunderstood everything I said.

I was ANSWERING. Stephens arguments. Stephen said...

"Wait, we don’t ask our parents to pray for us? We don’t have pictures of our parents on our walls?"

I argued that....

1. a picture is not an object of worship. It's memorabilia, with no power to heal or help. A statue in the church is prayed to, knelt before, and felt to have special power.

2. Praying to God together WITH someone is different from praying TO a dead person to intercede for us with God.

Do you get the difference?

HGL

"I don't kneel in front of that picture"

No, but you would tend to feel more respect when seeing it, since thinking of the person, right?

"or feel it holds special powers to heal or hear me."

We don't feel pictures of themselves hold powers. God holds them - but He honours certain pictures with miracles and plenty of heard petitions.

JL "You need to reread what I wrote."

What exact part?

"I assume English is not your native language."

Technically more or less correct. English is a dialect of my native language Germanic, but my native dialects of it are German and Swedish.

While technically correct, it is also irrelevant. People who complain of my mastery of English or French are usually nitpicking, sometimes even wrongly on their own grammar's principles, and very often simply don't like what I said.

"You have twisted came misunderstood everything I said."

Now, "you have twisted came misunderstood" seems incoherent in my mastery of English. Did you rewrite the sentence? And miss parts?

"Something got lost in the translation."

There was no translation - I think as fluently in English or French as in Swedish or German.

I am very sorry that attempts like this one to be "charitable" rather than hold me accountable for the comparisons I give, have given rise to illfounded rumours of my low mastery of non-Swedish languages.

I would also be very sorry if your "charitable" misunderstanding contributed to this rumour mongering.

JL

My apologies.

Haha. Autocorrect is stupid and sometimes I just have fat fingers. I went back and corrected. You just answered me back too fast.

HGL

Pictures are not worshipped for the reasons I gave.

Statues are used in worship. It is no different then the many statues used in Bible times by the Israelites. Their cities were conquered and the Temple destroyed for this transgression.

Reading Isaiah, Ezekiel, and especially Jeremiah really helps one understand the serious error of using a statue to worship God.

HGL

It seems you updated your comment, I'll add:

"1. a picture is not an object of worship."

Depends on definition of "worship".

"Its memorabilia"

Dito.

"with no power to heal or help."

If it were a photo of a saint, it would have such power, like the handkerchiefs touched to the clothes of Sts Paul and Barnabas.

"A statue in the church is prayed to,"

Technically incorrect.

"knelt before,"

Because one should kneel before God and before those closer to Him than one is oneself.

"and felt to have special power."

Not in itself.

"2. Praying to God together WITH someone"

Not the case I envisaged. I was not asking if you had asked your ma to pray with you, but whether you had asked her to pray for you, a k a keep you in her prayers.

"is different from praying TO"

Brings up what "praying to" means in this context.

"a dead person"

Not applicable to saints, since they are go with the lamb wheresoever he walketh. Especially not with those who are not actually dead : Henoch, Elijah, St John the Beloved and foremost the Blessed Virgin Mary.

"to intercede for us with God."

I heard you think it is different, but if you asked your ma to keep you in her prayers, you asked her to intercede for you with God.

If you counter she would have replied to keep her in your prayers too, those in Heaven don't need them and we do give prayers for those who can be presumed to be in Purgatory.

"Reading Isaiah, Ezekiel, and especially Jeremiah really helps one understand the serious error of using a statue to worship God."

You can tell me what exact passages? Do they really refer to statues intended to honour God, rather than false gods?

If yes, how about the fact that God could not be depicted before the Incarnation, but He can be depicted now, doesn't that change sth as to the situation?

BS

HGL

Someone that is insipred by God is not always correct - I guess I need to hold you hand in understanding this. - a pastor or preacher can preach a message and by insipred by God and be faulty in parts of his message. - there is a system used to determine what parts of the meathod are truth.

Catholics tend to do exactly what you are doing by never addressing the exact subject being discussed. You tend to go out into left field pulling verses way out of context.

HGL

"Autocorrect is stupid"

twisted came misunderstood = twisted and misunderstood, I suppose?

JL

HGL

Yeah. My fat finger hit the c when I hit the space bar and auto correct changed and to came.

HGL

BS "Someone that is insipred by God is not always correct"

He is WHEN so inspired.

BS

Since you want to beat around the bush with the subject of worship.

Here is the definition.

wor·ship
ˈwərSHəp/Submit
noun
1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
"the worship of God"
synonyms: reverence, veneration, adoration, glorification, glory, exaltation

Now tell me again how you all don't "worship" statues or Mary?

HGL did you not read my example?

So every word a pastor preaches is true? After all he is inspired by God right?

Another sign of Catholic ignorance.

Being the inspired Word of God is different than being inspired by God.

in·spired
inˈspī(ə)rd/Submit
adjective
1.
of extraordinary quality, as if arising from some external creative impulse.
"they had to thank the goalie for some inspired saves"
2.
(of air or another substance) that is breathed in.
"inspired air must be humidified

Not every word Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John ever wrote was put in the Bible, now was it?

HGL

Whatever you may think of other moments than the Magnificat, all of that worship She gave to God is totally correct, since in previous verse described as under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

"So every word a pastor preaches is true?"

No.

"After all he is inspired by God right?"

At best protected from doctrinal error in Papal definitions. Inspiration is not given to preaching in that sense.

Now, the dictionary defintion you gave:

"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity."

Since the Blessed Virgin is NOT a deity and adoration of Her is NOT allowed, there is no worship on that definition, of Her.

"Being the inspired Word of God is different than being inspired by God."

A man made dictionary of common parlance is in this case no help, since the word is heavily abused.

I actually misread, misrecalled, since the text only says that Elisabeth was inspired:

"And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [42] And she cried out with a loud voice, and said:"

So, her words are inspired. But usually the songs of praise in the Bible are counted as inspired as well. Hence this still applies to the Magnificat, not just to the Hail Mary.

"Not every word Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John ever wrote was put in the Bible, now was it?"

No, but every word they attributed to a person who was "filled with the Holy Ghost" just after mentioning that fact can be counted as their stamp on the divine origin of those words. Unlike a person who is bad, a person who is mistaken and later corrects himself, or a person who is corrected.

JL

HGL

Here is an example of what Protestants would object to as a prayer TO a man....

"The Prayer to St Jude O most holy apostle, Saint Jude, faithful servant and friend of Jesus, the Church honoureth and invoketh thee universally, as the patron of hopeless cases, and of things almost despaired of. Pray for me, who am so miserable. Make use, I implore thee, of that particular privilege accorded to thee, to bring visible and speedy help where help was almost despaired of. Come to mine assistance in this great need, that I may receive the consolation and succor of Heaven in all my necessities, tribulations, and sufferings, particularly (here make your request) and that I may praise God with thee and all the elect throughout eternity. I promise thee, O blessed Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favour, to always honour thee as my special and powerful patron, and to gratefully encourage devotion to thee. Amen."

This is WORSHIP. You may disagree but the scriptures never show an Apostle erecting a statue of Jesus or angels or of martyred Saints and praying before them.

Jesus plainly COMMANDED US...

1. NO REPETITIVE OR WRITTEN PRAYERS.

"When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words." Matthew 6:7

2. ONLY PRAY TO THE FATHER, NOT SAINTS.

"You must pray, then, this way:“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified...." Matthew 6:9.

HGL

The Prayer to St Jude is a form of WORSHIP.

You may disagree but the scriptures never show an Apostle erecting a statue of Jesus or angels or of martyred Saints and praying before them.

Jesus plainly COMMANDED US...

1. NO REPETITIVE OR WRITTEN PRAYERS.

"When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words." Matthew 6:7

2. ONLY PRAY TO THE FATHER, NOT SAINTS.

"You must pray, then, this way:“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified...." Matthew 6:9.

HGL

"This is WORSHIP."

No, it is dulia. Asking for intercession.

"the scriptures never show"

There are lots of the things you do the scriptures never directly show either - like considering bowing down before a statue as worship.

"Jesus plainly COMMANDED US...

1. NO REPETITIVE OR WRITTEN PRAYERS"

You are using a translation which includes a Protestant interpretation in "same things over again". That is not His actual words. As to written prayers, not even in your translation are those mentioned.

"2. ONLY PRAY TO THE FATHER, NOT SAINTS."

Picking out of context. A good interpretation of the real implication as to other prayers is given by St Augustine : we may pray in other words, but not for other things. Honouring the saints involves hallowing God's name, so is not praying for another thing.

BS

"at best protected from doctrinal error" not true. - you can not tell me that every Catholic priest is never in error of their doctrinal statements.

Man is fallible. We are finite beings.

Just because a definition says deity doesn't mean that the word "deity" stands alone.

Anything that you put before God in all things is considered adultery towards God, therefore statues, Mary, anything else that is prayed to, admired, and so forth becomes idolatry.

God is a jealous God and wants all the worship and praise because he deserves nothing less than all.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all still finite beings and no matter what you say you can not back any claim that you make by "every word they attributed to a person who was filled with the Holly Ghost just after mentioning that fact can be counted as their stamp on divine origin of those words"

This is a typical Catholic argument.

Every Catholic on here continues to add to the Bible to try and prove a point thus proving that each and every single one of you do not hold to the teachings of the Bible. You don't follow God you follow the pope.

No where in the Bible does it say Mary was sinless. No where in the Greek can you prove it.

You a constantly twisting the scripture when talking about praying for and praying to someone.

It will always be a circular argument.

JL

HGL

A written prayer is written down so it can be repeated.

Seems self evident that a written prayer is a repetitive prayer

HGL

JL and first BS

BS, answering your earlier point to Stephen Johnson : SJ can you show me one instance in the Bible where someone was prayed to or for after they left this earth?

• To : Abraham was prayed to by the rich presumable Pharisee.
• For : Onesiphorus.

"not true. - you can not tell me that every Catholic priest is never in error of their doctrinal statements."

I never said so. I said "at best" - namely in circumstances where infallibility is claimed as per promises of Christ to His Church.

"Man is fallible. We are finite beings"

So were Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Yet, they were not only infallible doctrinally but inerrant as to facts in writing the Gospels. Hence, there are occasions on which God has promised the Church infallibility. Like when recognising their inerrant inspiration.

"Just because a definition says deity doesn't mean that the word "deity" stands alone."

If you don't like the dictionary defintion, how about looking at Catholic definitions, like difference between adoration and dulia?

"Anything that you put before God in all things is considered adultery towards God,"

Yes.

"therefore"

No, doesn't follow.

"statues, Mary, anything else that is prayed to, admired, and so forth becomes idolatry."

We are not putting any of them before God in all things.

"God is a jealous God and wants all the worship and praise because he deserves nothing less than all."

God is a generous God, who, while reserving all WORSHIP for himself also shares some kinds of honour of praise with His close ones.

"Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all still finite beings and no matter what you say you can not back any claim that you make by "every word they attributed to a person who was filled with the Holly Ghost just after mentioning that fact can be counted as their stamp on divine origin of those words"

That is like saying that while the Bible is inspired, its obvious sense can be misleading.

It is not true.

"This is a typical Catholic argument."

Thank you!

"Every Catholic on here continues to add to the Bible to try and prove a point thus proving that each and every single one of you do not hold to the teachings of the Bible. You don't follow God you follow the pope."

Wild accusations. Following the Church and its appointed pastors is opposed to following God exactly how?

"No where in the Bible does it say Mary was sinless. No where in the Greek can you prove it."

That was not my point. My point was She was inspired when praising God by the Magnificat, which is therefore an inerrant text.

However, as you challenged me ...

καὶ ἔχθραν θήσω ἀνὰ μέσον σου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῆς γυναικὸς καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σπέρματός σου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σπέρματος αὐτῆς αὐτός σου τηρήσει κεφαλήν καὶ σὺ τηρήσεις αὐτοῦ πτέρναν

Any sin on part of the woman would have been incomplete ἔχθρα between Her and the serpent.

"You a constantly twisting the scripture when talking about praying for and praying to someone."

Like Onesiphorus and Abraham?

"It will always be a circular argument."

You pretend. So it is a circular argument to pretend you have the correct interpretation of the Bible because you have the Bible but not the interpretation from the Catholic Church.

@JL : "Seems self evident that a written prayer is a repetitive prayer"

The point is "repetitive" is not the word Christ uses in Matthew 6:7!

JL

HGL

Repetitive MEANS to repeat.

Same word, Hans

HGL

JL Repetitive or repeat is NOT the word Christ used.

προσευχόμενοι δὲ μὴ βατταλογήσητε

Battalogein does not mean "repeat".