If Ken Wolgemuth Avoids Answering Me Directly, What Does That Say of Him? Update : he did some answering

Creation vs. Evolution: Why is Carbon Dating More Important than Potassium Argon? · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Argon, Carbon, Magnetic Field · HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS: Ken Wolgemuth Understood the Argument · If Ken Wolgemuth Avoids Answering Me Directly, What Does That Say of Him? Update : he did some answering · He did some answering, though, to others ... · Ken Wolgemuth part IV

David K. Muncie

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Is radiometric dating REALLY a reliable dating method?

This past summer, the 9th International Conference on Creationism was hosted by Cedarville University. Scientists from all over the globe attended this conference to present their research and hear from others in the creation science community.

One group of researchers presented their new discoveries in the field of radiometric dating. What was so unique about their findings?

In this video, Dr. Ken Coulson interviews the group to discuss radioisotope concordance. Check out the link below to learn more!

Do radiometric "ages" always agree?
Creation Unfolding | 2 Febr. 2024
https://youtu.be/jGlMfOLiXUs?si=eFdMKIi0e03vz8YL

I

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"radioisotope concordance."

Nice, that one is a lacuna in my arsenal of refuting Old Earthers. I think I will!

II

Ken Wolgemuth

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This is just putting up more stumbling blocks to the Gospel, and bringing dishonor to Christ's name. That's what happens when YECs peddle their fake stories of God's creation with wild speculation and disinformation.

David K. Muncie

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Ken Wolgemuth explain your comment old fork tongue one.

Affez Tlemsanix

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Ken Wolgemuth You're basically saying that about Genesis of the Bible, that it should be removed from the Bible or something like that.

Ken Wolgemuth

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Affez Tlemsanix, Absolutely not. It's the YECs who tell tall tales of creation when Genesis 1 does not tell us how old the creation is. 6,000 years came from Bishop Ussher, not the Bible!

David K. Muncie

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Ken Wolgemuth , you’re delusional

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[first answer to KW]

Ken Wolgemuth "6,000 years came from Bishop Ussher," AND a Masoretic text for Genesis 5 and 11.

With a variety of two LXX readings and other text choices, earth is above 7200 or above 7500 years old.

At least, that's when Adam was created.

The problem with Genesis 1 being extended by Day Age or Gap Theories, is, since that was suggested, we have carbon dated human skeleta to over 40 000 years old. No big deal if Earth and Universe are young, just means that carbon 14 levels were still very low back when they lived, for instance 1.628 pmC in the year of the Flood.

But if the universe is really much older, the samples would need to be presumed to reflect an atmosphere of already 100 pmC, which involves accepting dates before Adam should have lived for men who died.

Genesis 5 and 11 are as much history with human observers as Genesis 3 is. If the historic memory of Genesis 5 and 11 got severely bungled, why would Genesis 3 be exempt?

On the other hand, if Genesis 5 and 11 are correctly recorded (with the text variants taken into account, Seth born when Adam was 130 or 230, there being a generation in the Sem-Abraham space that was called Cainan or not, the differences are not of orders of magnitude), then that authentifies the historic memory of Genesis 3 being transmitted over a sufficiently low number of "necessary intermediaries" (i e people who are fewest possible counts of the intermediaries between two persons who didn't meet each other), with a sufficiently high number of "supplementary intermediates" for the transmission to be credible.

Plus, Jesus in Mark 10:6 attaches the creation of Adam and Eve to "the beginning of creation" which also rules out Day-Age and Gap Theories.

Affez Tlemsanix

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Ken Wolgemuth Not just that. You're dissing the entire lengthy and detailed account of the Global Flood.

Any reader capable of understanding the words of any given Bible translation regarding the account of the flood would definitely get the picture of this "elephant in the room."

But no, a lukewarm "CHRINO" (or a democrat Christian-in-name-only) keeps on bumping into this massive elephant. When others see that, they will automatically assume that the guy who keeps on bumping his head into the elephant's knees is blind, or at least severely visually impaired. A cane might help, but if that's what it takes because of the psychological incapacity to "see" the elephant, then a cane will do. A cane still cannot "see" the elephant for the person, though, and it will not hide the fact that the person is blind as to acknowledging the elephant in the room.

Ken Wolgemuth

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David K. Muncie,
Delusion: The definition is a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contrary evidence. So someone who believes that the Earth is flat is delusional. There is abundant and overwhelming evidence that the earth is ancient. The Pacific Tectonic plate has the evidence that it has been moving slowly, 2.6 to 3.6 inches per year, for 80 million years. So it appears you may be delusional, instead of your claim that I am delusional. Everything that I believe about the earth has some type of reasonable evidence, or I would not say it.

David K. Muncie

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Ken Wolgemuth , if you read the Bible, you would realize there is a zero evidence for an old earth. All you have is man-made tests that will produce the answers that you want, if it doesn’t fix your agenda you throw it out. For some reason you have it in your head that every rock made by God starts with zero daughter isotopes. Who comes up with these stupid ideas why do you think God had to have made all the rocks that way?well that’s just crazy and then to top off you ignorance you call Christian you know, the people who read God’s word and believes what God tells us word for word, you call them the nuts.

Ken Wolgemuth

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David K. Muncie The Bible is silent about when creation occurred. God inspired Scripture to answer Who and what and why things happened in creation, but now when and how. God left these for us to discover. That's what science is about, with physics, math, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, cosmology, etc.

If you stayed with reading the Bible and quoting it, and admitted that it does not give us the number of years since creation, you'd be fine. God guided me into chemistry and later into geochemistry. So I have studied God's general revelation for 60 years. I can say with high confidence that if the creation happened 6,000 years ago, there would be plenty of evidence. The methods of geochemistry help us understand the history of the earth, and we have followed that wherever it leads. I do not care how old the earth is, but want to know the best answer now.

You are an admin for this group, and I've wondered, did you start this group? Your comments about my thinking God created the rocks with zero daughter atoms is you of your lies. I never wrote that, and know it is not true. Have you ever had a graduate course in geochemistry? It sure doesn't sound like it.

My prayed for you is to learn to obey God's Word and speak the truth.

David K. Muncie

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Ken Wolgemuth
The Bible tells us exactly when the Earth was created .

Have you read the Bible? Your knowledge of it seems to be lacking.

Ken Wolgemuth the number of years sense creation is spelled out. You should not lie.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[not to KW]

David K. Muncie Exactly is a bit exaggerated. There are text versions and interpretation choices.

Genesis 5 and 11 — Samaritan, Masoretic, LXX, and in the latter case the standard version or the one without the Second Cainan?

Was There 70 or older when Abraham was born?

430 years to Exodus — starting when Abraham went to Egypt and returned, or starting when Jacob went to Egypt?

480 to Temple — is this the correct text, does "out of Egypt" refer to Exodus or was Sinai counting as Egypt in King Solomon's time, is the year a minimum or an exact number of years — if exact and starting with the Exodus, what do you do with Judges?

Temple to Captivity — nitty gritty things to count together.*

But yes, within this kind of parameter of variables, the Bible does say when Adam was created. And Jesus said that was straight on the creation of the universe, Mark 10:6.

Adam was not created 10 000 years ago. And the universe was not created 10 000 years, let alone 13.8 billion years, before him.

* Note:

the choices of the Roman Martyrology are apparently: LXX, without the Second Cainan. Thera was 70 when Abraham was born, and Acts 7:4 either refers to the spiritual death or Thera, or the death of his spiritual father, not to the physical death of Thera. The 430 years start when Abraham received his promise, so, the soujourns in Canaan are part of "soujourning in a land not your own". 480 is a minimum count after the overall chronology was neglected and recorded with gaps in the Judges period (Jephtha's 300 years are actually more years than that, but the Temple is roughly 180 years after Jephtha spoke). Kind David was anointed in 1031 BC.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[second answer to KW]

Ken Wolgemuth "I can say with high confidence that if the creation happened 6,000 years ago, there would be plenty of evidence."

Like fossils from the Global Flood? Well, there are!

Ken Wolgemuth "The Pacific Tectonic plate has the evidence that it has been moving slowly, 2.6 to 3.6 inches per year, for 80 million years."

Let's assume the 2.6 to 3.6 inches per year can be measured, how do you assess:

• that it was always so slow (it could have been faster after the Flood)?
• where the original position was?

If you can't prove those, exeunt 80 million years.

Both did some answering.

Ken Wolgemuth

Main contributor

Hans-Georg Lundahl, No. There would be no limestones, far fewer fossils, most sediments with the same fossil assemblages, very little coal, no oil and gas fields, very few humans, no high technology, no cars, no airplanes, etc.

Hans-Georg Lundahl, Here is the evidence that the Pacific Plate has been moving for 80 millions years. You use the word asking me to "prove" something. That is not the right question to ask of science. Go to mathematics and for "proof" of some theorem, and stay away from science and theology from the Bible. God provides abundant evidence that He exists, but we can never "prove" that God exists.

Below is the evidence that the Pacific Plate has been moving slowly for 80 million years. These results from applying the potassium-argon radiometric dating methods correctly.

Hans-Georg Lundahl,
Here is a graph showing the range of movement rate that I mentioned.

David K. Muncie

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Hans-Georg Lundahl . Genesis 1 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Mark 10:6 “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.”

You’ll find no room for billions of years.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Ken Wolgemuth I can not answer your anti-Duane Gish-Gallop in one word, so I'll pick it apart.

"There would be no limestones,"

From shellfish caught in Flood sediment.

"far fewer fossils,"

You think of how many millions of years it took to get together those we have, and simply divide? You miss that the Flood is an excellent time to get fossils in masses.

"most sediments with the same fossil assemblages,"

That's what we find. I have looked. In Karoo, Permian and Triassic are just as likely to be two collections of biotopes during the Flood as two eras successive to each other, both roaming the area.

"very little coal, no oil and gas fields,"

Coal from floating tree mats, covered by sediments in the Flood. Oil from seaweed, covered by sediments in the Flood.

"very few humans,"

Where the heck do you get that from?

"no high technology, no cars, no airplanes, etc."

Dito?

Ken Wolgemuth "These results from applying the potassium-argon radiometric dating methods correctly."

Potassium argon probably means what was cooled quickest at lava flows during the Flood, trapping most argon.

Neither graph provides any evidence what is now 3700 miles from Kilauea started there. You left that part out.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

David K. Muncie "You’ll find no room for billions of years."

Yeah, I think I said that.

David K. Muncie Your longevity chart has the problem of being based on texts with Masoretic chronology. I checked it said 130 when Seth was born.

I am into LXX chronology. I use a chronology made by St. Jerome, which is still quoted in the Christmas Proclamation, and it involves LXX readings for Genesis 5 and 11, and the one for Genesis 11 doesn't have the Second Cainan.

David K. Muncie

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Hans-Georg Lundahl , interesting.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

David K. Muncie Glad you found it worthwhile!

David K. Muncie

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Hans-Georg Lundahl yes I did. Thank you

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Ken Wolgemuth I missed one part:

"God provides abundant evidence that He exists, but we can never "prove" that God exists."

False. Condemned as heretical by the Vatican Council in 1869 or 1870.

We can, with the light of natural human reason, prove that God exists.

David K. Muncie

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Hans-Georg Lundahl
Romans 1 20-21
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

It was in 1870.

The same holy Mother Church holds and teaches that God, the beginning and end of all things, may be certainly known by the natural light of human reason, by means of created things; 'for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,'271 but that it pleased his wisdom and bounty to reveal himself, and the eternal decrees of his will, to mankind by another and a supernatural way: as the Apostle says, 'God, having spoken on divers occasions, and many ways, in times past, to the Fathers by the Prophets; last of all, in these days, hath spoken to us by his Son.'

Constitution Dei Filius.
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.v.ii.i.html

David K. Muncie As you can see, Catholics are not prone to deny this.

David K. Muncie

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Hans-Georg Lundahl I was raised catholic and I went to a catholic school, I was totally unaware of salvation by grace, it is a works belief. So many good people in the Catholic Church that need to hear the truth.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

We believe grace is not an account clearance, but the infused life of God.

We believe Ephesians 2:8,9 is NOT a passage, but Ephesians 2:8—10 IS a passage.

Here is from a response to a video, on that topic:

// 2:50 What Catholics actually believe can be studied in Ephesians 2:8-10, which, contrary to Ephesians 2:8,9, is a meaningful Bible passage.

Becoming justified from the state of mortal or original sin = Faith.
Remaining justified when one already is justified = Works (which include, but is not limited to, Faith).

Justification and sanctification are not separate.

When one is justified, from previous sin, one is sanctified. When one stays justified, one proceeds in sanctification or at least stands still on a level of it. //

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Catholicism and Protestantism : Ecclesiology and Justification (1/3 of Video)
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2024/03/catholicism-and-protestantism.html