Were Egyptian Catholics Racist? Or were they Black?

Alex Coleman's status:

The blackness of the Ancient Egyptians is often denied by conservatives. This is ironic, given that this was the standard view in Christendom until the Enlightenment.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"given that this was the standard view in Christendom"

Not in Egyptian fathers ... not sure if it was St. Anthony or St. Paul the First Hermit or St. Athanasius, I think it's from the last one's vita of the first, "the devil appeared as a black boy" - meaning Egyptians were racist against blacks.

Alex Coleman

@Hans-Georg Lundahl. Such racism indeed was present in the hellenistic world, although by no means were such views commonplace as they became in a later age. However, Roman Egypt was distant from the time of the Pharoahs. I recall reading that when St. Moses the Ethiopian first came to St. Macarius, the latter exclaimed, "who is this black among us!?" Yet St. Moses became one of the greatest of the Desert Fathers. My point is that viewing the

Ancient Egyptians as black was non-controversial and commonplace amongst Christian scholars. The Fathers held the Greek historians such as Herodotus, in high esteem. To a Greek or a Roman, an Ethiopian was neither more nor less a barbarian than was a Scythian.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

// when St. Moses the Ethiopian first came to St. Macarius, the latter exclaimed, "who is this black among us!?" Yet St. Moses became one of the greatest of the Desert Fathers. //

In other words, Egyptians typically matched his first reaction - racist.

"To a Greek or a Roman, an Ethiopian was neither more nor less a barbarian than was a Scythian."

To a Greek or Roman, but not necessarily to an Egyptian.

Alex Coleman

@Hans-Georg Lundahl. His reaction is not evidence of a typical reaction. It is equally well evidence of an atypical reaction. St. Moses had been a slave, prior to his conversion. The reaction on the part of St. Macarius might also have been one of class bigotry rather than racial prejudice.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl. We are discussing Roman Egypt, specifically now.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Yes, but it was heir of Egypt.

Copts have as big a distinction between Egyptians (ethnic Copts) and Ethiopians as you have between Greeks and Slavs. BUT - the bishops and priests in the Ethiopian Church are getting their chrism from the Pope of Alexandria.

Matthew Millette

@Hans-Georg Lundahl if he had said the devil appeared as a white girl, would he be racist against whites?

Alex Coleman

@Hans-Georg Lundahl. That is very true. However, Greeks and Slavs are both white. Just as Egyptians and Ethiopians are both black. The Ethiopian Church has been autocephalous since 1959, if my ailing memory serves. They thus have their own patriarch.

Matthew Millette

@Hans-Georg Lundahl you are judging an ancient culture by 21st century standards. I'll bet they didn't eat vegan or recycle either.

Alex Coleman

@Matthew Millette. I had the same thought. It isn't as though the devil chose the boy BECAUSE he was black.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alex Coleman and Matthew Millette "Just as Egyptians and Ethiopians are both black."

Egyptians aren't.

"you are judging an ancient culture by 21st century standards."

Not really - being against racism is pretty mainstream in European Christendom, traditionally, but not quite as much in Egypt.

"chose the boy BECAUSE he was black."

The fact is, as far as we know, there was no boy, there was just an appearance of a black boy in which St. Anthony identified the devil.

"They thus have their own patriarch."

Maybe, but earlier the patriarch was not allowing other bishops to consecrate chrism.

@Matthew Millette thing is, the goodness of God allowed Satan to appear only in a shape that St. Anthony was mistrustful of - naturally speaking.

Alex Coleman

@Hans-Georg Lundahl. Would not Satan have appeared in a form that was innocuous, so as to lure St. Anthony? Thus the scripture, "the devil shows himself as an angel of light."

Matthew Millette

@Hans-Georg Lundahl ah yes. The unforgivable sin of racism (i.e. having bad thoughts about another race.)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alex Coleman "Would not Satan have appeared in a form that was innocuous, so as to lure St. Anthony?"

Satan cannot do everything he likes, only what God allows.

@Matthew Millette - not my point the least.

My point is rather, racism against blacks would have been impossible in Egypt if Egyptians themselves had been black. If you didn't take that, read the status of Alex Coleman.

Alex Coleman

@Hans-Georg Lundahl. Thus, God permitted Satan to appear in a form that would have been seemingly innocent to St. Athony. Roman Egypt was one that was ruled by an Imperial power. What racism existed was the result of it being a colony of Rome rather than the attitude of native Egyptians.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"What racism existed was the result of it being a colony of Rome rather than the attitude of native Egyptians."

No.

Rome asked Egypt to pay taxes in wheat and do no revolts and perhaps provide legionaries, but certainly provide wheat.

Rome couldn't have cared less if Egyptians were more racist than average Roman Imperial citizens.

// The next stage of dissuasion is in presenting evil thoughts, in the appearance of a woman at night to seduce him and of a black boy during the day to flatter him piteously. After dismissing these ... //

Temptations of St. Antony in Art: Early Modern & Modern Painting
https://www.hermitary.com/lore/antony-temptations.html

Why would black boys be likely to flatter unless blacks were subdued?

For that matter, why would St. Anthony have noticed the boy as being black if all or most or even many Egyptian nationals were so?

Alex Coleman

@Hans-Georg Lundahl. He noticed because of the distinction between Greeks/Romans and native Egyptians.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If that were the case, why would have have said "black" rather than "Egyptian"?

Besides, you are presupposing he was Greek, but he was from Koma, a village. So he was presumably Egyptian.