Tolkien: Neither Woke Nor "Based Conservative" ... More Like "Gentle Traditionalist"

I Have Seen Worse Things from the Late Bergoglio, Than Some of his Economic Advice ... · What an Occasion to Make Clarifications on Fascism · Tolkien: Neither Woke Nor "Based Conservative" ... More Like "Gentle Traditionalist"

The "Gentle Traditionalist" is obviously a reference to a character in Roger Buck's novel.

APSt

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HGL

I'm sorry, but this gets Tolkien equally wrong, if not more.

1) Tolkien would not have called someone crazy bc of an intellectual error, and would not have exposed a relatively peaceful person, let alone an admirer, to the horrors of psychiatry for such a thing,

2) Tolkien certainly thought that European colonialism was tainted. His point about Numenor being blessed was basically a point about European Christendom being blessed for resisting brutal enemies of the faith ... but the point about Black Numenoreans setting up things in certain parts of Middle-Earth is a point about colonialism gone deeply wrong.

It would be a horrible thing to be for Sauron just to be against Numenor, but it is perhaps even more horrible and certainly possible to be for Sauron as a Numenorean.

I am presuming you know more than just the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, perhaps Unfinished Tales, and at least Silmarillion.

AC

HGL The fall of the Numenoreans (and I mean that spiritually and physically) is a clear reference to how our society decays as turn away from God in favor of selfish pursuits. It had nothing to do with colonialism and everything to do with selfishness and materialistic idolatry. Though it is far worse today, the 1920's was a disgusting and perverse era and, for Tolkein who was a traditionalist Catholic, it was probably downright maddening.

HGL

"It had nothing to do with colonialism"

Sorry, but you are very explicitly contradicting a letter by Tolkien.

The Black Numenoreans are marked out for preferring to dominate the more primitive folks in Middle Earth over brotherly teaching them.

That very clearly has sth to do with colonialism.

Here is Tolkiengateway:

The Black Númenóreans emerged from the King's Men party;[2] they were cruel oppressors and overlords over the primitive Men of Middle-earth. Since they were colonising the continent, they survived the Downfall of Númenor but swiftly diminished.

Tolkien Gateway: Black Númenóreans
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Black_N%C3%BAmen%C3%B3reans

HGL, added

Here is Girl Next Gondor giving three videos about the fall of Númenor, here are two of them, partly about the colonialism in Middle-Earth:

Before the Shadow: The Downfall of Númenor [Part One]
GirlNextGondor | 19 July 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDPL-NDvrqg

Glory and Decay: The Downfall of Númenor [Part Two]
GirlNextGondor | 24 Aug 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQuPWhZuYkw

II

HGL

I missed the last part of Miss Woke's second line, it's actually rather gross, but even then I think Tolkien would have refrained from the measure you portray.

What an Occasion to Make Clarifications on Fascism

I Have Seen Worse Things from the Late Bergoglio, Than Some of his Economic Advice ... · What an Occasion to Make Clarifications on Fascism · Tolkien: Neither Woke Nor "Based Conservative" ... More Like "Gentle Traditionalist"

Hans-Georg Lundahl

It is known I self describe as Fascist. Note, Fascist, not National Socialist.

Someone beside me in the cyber played a speech by you know who at a speech climax.

It's possibly unfair to a good painter.

It's also irrelevant for Fascism.

Here is a speech by Mussolini who thought they were safeguarding international peace:

Mussolini Close Ups And Speech In German (1927)
British Pathé | 13 April 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jgZijUobnY

The notice "1927" is obviously a typo, possibly for 1937. Not sure what year Mussolini visited Germany.

And here is one by Engelbert Dollfuss:

EXCLUSIVE ANNOUNCEMENT BY DOLLFUSS OF AUSTRIA - SOUND
British Movietone | 21 July 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yEXGxWcLnM

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[update]

Just in case some guys PERSIST to confuse Nazi and Fascist, here is a video on acceptance of versus discriminations against people with Downs:

How Were People With Down Syndrome Treated In History?
Disturban History | 25 April 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szQw2T8avRc

The Reich after Hitler's Machtübernahme is mentioned, so were states in the US, first of which Indiana, and every time I reflect on this, I'm so sad a certain guy didn't remain a painter and so happy for one change that Patton brought about.

In the Soviet Union, the project was studied under Lenin, but very fortunately cancelled by Stalin, however the mentality is widespread. In Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark, there was no Patton. Eugenics ended in the 1970's there.

In Mussolini's Italy, there was no such thing, at least before 1938. I have not read the leggi raciali, I don't know if that changed.

In Dollfuss' Austria, there was no such thing.

In Franco's Spain, I think Valleja Najera tried to push for it, but didn't quite succeed, so he had to claim some version of Child Protective Services as "eugenics" ... (in a different context, namely considering revolutionary spirit as a hereditary disease), but even that was pushed back through the Catholic Church.

I am not sure how much of this got introduced by Alexis Carrell, a Protestant, when he became a minister in the Vichy régime. I used to say the régime of Pétain Darlan was OK, that of Pétain Laval wasn't ... but Alexis Carrell got hired before Laval, so, I am not positive about the entire time of Darlan as PM either.

This article explores a new dimension in fascist studies, eugenic studies, and the more mainstream history of Italy, Europe, and modernity. It asks scholars to reconsider the centrality of race and biology to the political programme of Italian fascism in power. Fascism’s ‘binomial theorem’ of optimum population change was characterized as a commitment both to increase the ‘quantity’ (number) and improve the ‘quality’ (biology) of the Italian ‘race’. These twin objectives came to fruition in the new scientific and political paradigm known to contemporaries as ‘biological politics’ and to scholars today as ‘biopolitics’. Fascism, this article contends, attempted to utilize the full force of the new ‘biopower’ of reproductive and biogenetic medicine and science in order to realize the aims of its biopolitical agenda for racial betterment through fertility increase. In Italy, fascism encouraged science to tamper with the processes of human reproduction and to extend genetic understanding of diseases which were seen as ‘conquerable’ without sterilization and euthanasia. It began a biotechnological ‘revolution’ that historians often attribute to twenty-first-century science. By exploring the technical innovations in assisted conception which Italian fascism promoted, this article challenges the assumption in much of the scholarship that there was a huge divide between the ‘old’ eugenics of the interwar period and the ‘new’ genetics of recent decades.

Racial ‘Sterility’ and ‘Hyperfecundity’ in Fascist Italy. Biological Politics of Sex and Reproduction
https://brill.com/view/journals/fasc/1/2/article-p92_3.xml

I Have Seen Worse Things from the Late Bergoglio, Than Some of his Economic Advice ...

I Have Seen Worse Things from the Late Bergoglio, Than Some of his Economic Advice ... · What an Occasion to Make Clarifications on Fascism · Tolkien: Neither Woke Nor "Based Conservative" ... More Like "Gentle Traditionalist"

But Leo XIII and Pius XI, Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno were clearer on not being Communist.

JOL

The Catholic Church (along with most Mainline Protestant Churches) have long challenged the morality of American style laizźe faire capitalism. But for those Catholics and other Christians who actively support the MAGA movement that kind of capitalism is a major plank of their worldview.

DC

Communism worked so well at feeding poor people. The only thing it does is guarantee everyone is equally compelled by gun point to starve to death.

HGL

DC Logic?

"I'm against unbridled Capitalism"
"Oh, you are for Communism?"

It's like the dialogue:

"I'm against Islam"
"Oh, you are an Atheist?"

Islam and Atheism aren't the sole two religious systems. Even if some Muslims like to think so. And Communism and Capitalism aren't the sole two Economic systems. Heard of Fascism? Peronism is a form of Fascism (at least in the opinion of the Swedish Fascist Per Engdahl), and Bergoglio was pretty obviously a Peronist, even his opponents in the Catholic Church have noted that. Peronism and Communism are not the same. Perón's Argentina supported Franco's Spain economically, at a certain point, when Spanish harvests were low after the Civil War, which Communism would never have done.

Somewhere between Islam and Atheism, you might also find a third option, like Christianity, ever heard of it?

DC

HGL, yes, I am orthodox. We suffered quite a few million martyrs from atheistic socialist communism's manifest blessings. We are also quite familiar with living under the benevolence of Islam. We suggest you do not get chummy with either. They love martyring Christians. You certainly will find out wether your Christianity is real or not. Christianity is a relationship of union and communion with Christ that transforms you. It is not an govt/ economic model of redistribution of wealth.

The thing about Islam and communism is your usually invited to join at gunpoint and that gunpoint is never very far away to help remind you their paradise doesn't like people leaving it. Christ on the other hand always honors your free will choice to leave Him. When Jihadi's have to fatwa your heinie and commies shoot you crossing their iron curtains ,your paradise on earth isn't working very well. Let's try to not assume that Christian's need to think remotely like yourself about your politics, economical and worldview to still be right with Christ.

HGL

"It is not an govt/ economic model of redistribution of wealth."

It is also not a a fitness régime but it still involves fasting which is a kind of fitness régime.

So, it could involve some limits on government and economy and therefore promote some things too.

First, Our Lord did not only tell His Apostles to convert souls, He told them to convert nations, and that typically means societies and governments.

Second, given that Christian government are, if not the main at least one purpose, anxillary but not totally beside the point, one can discuss what Christianity has to say to Christian governments.

Third, this should obviously involve banning abortions, it can however also involve banning class warfare, whether it be the proletarian agressor, as in BLM protests, or the Capitalist agressor, as in sweating and underpaying workers, and as in disloyal means of outcompeting the smaller and healthier competition.

A Christian may miss this and be in a state of grace, but this is usually the result of ignorance.

JCE

DC Jesus turned over the tables. He did not see the value of clinging to wealth. He called for love of neighbors… and no, not just your relatives or close friends. Helping the needy. And welcoming the stranger. (You know, like those from a different place… rather than sending them to jail…). If he stood in front of you today, dark skinned, challenging us all to share with each other, how long would it take you to put him on a cross? Not long, I imagine.

You might also remember that he challenged the men ready to kill a woman who made decisions they criticized… to throw the first stone… if they never made a mistake.

He also turned to the women who recognized him. They did much of the early leading and were trusted by him. Yet, as his supposed followers became an organization, they fell into old habits, making their own rules and repetitive requirements, putting women in a lesser category. Making beautiful buildings. Reinterpreting Jesus teachings — and then making “their” rules, not his teachings, the requirement for proving their faith. Not actually faith by following his teachings, but their own interpretations.

DC

JCE, I suggest you read the Bible again in a thematic manner. Look with the idea that Christ came to earth with the mission to undo the works of the devil brought about by the introduction of sin and death that separated God from Man. That Jesus restored man so that man may return to Paradise and be atoned or restored to being AT ONE with God as it was before the fall. That these books or testaments are testimony to God's work towards that goal. Preparing by prophesy, law and rites to bring you in preparation to Christ working in history.

What He brings is salvation/ restoration to God. Christ became man so that man can become like God. His Church is the Place He created to be the vehicle that serves you in this journey( WAY) to salvation in Christ. It is not a social welfare organization. It is not a governmental power to create "good" as defined by the morals of the day. And the devil offered all earthly governmental power to Jesus if He for go his death and simply worship the devil. Satan offers full belly's and equality and safety for all, Simply surrender to Him.

Jesus offers humility and obedience, the devil offers you outrage, anger, Restoration of wrongs, injustices and equality of outcomes. Quite sure the walls of hell will be grafittied with the quotes of Marx, Mao, the Beatles, Gloria Steinum, and the muzak in the elevators will play Imagine by the Beatles, I did it my way by Sinatra and all the sloppy feminist empowerment music from such notable as Beyonce and Cardi B.

WAP, now there's a message that empowers women. Study the word of God so that might transform YOU. You're in no condition to judge what state of righteousness is in others who you might foolishly presume is contrary to God's intentions.

JCE

DC Excuse me. I’m a retired ordained minister with a Master’s of Divinity. Graduated top of my class. I know the Bible. (And I’d gone to church through my childhood and read completely through the Bible when I was about 13.) I learned about the research on the times of Jesus and why there are biblical stories which seem contradictory. And the changes in it over centuries. So… I’m not just picking and choosing what some particular churches try to pound into my head, to go along with their views. I’m not just “trained”. I’m educated. The misuse of the Bible really hurts.

HGL

DC "Christ came to earth with the mission to undo the works of the devil"

Like the sins that cry to Heaven for vengeance. These being:

• murder
• sin against nature
• oppressing widows and orphans
• withholding justly earned wages

Or like dishonesty, one species thereof being taking of interest.

Have you read St. John Chrysostom? His work was highly influential on Monsignor Ignaz Seipel's Wirtschaftsethische Lehre der Kirchenväter.

Also, manmade starvation is murder. Within less than one century there were three of them in Europe.

• Capitalism with Protestant prejudice created one in Ireland
• Russian Magnates' admiration for Industrial Capitalism created one in the Volga valley, and Lenin rubbed his hands for the Revolutionary Potential
• Communists taking over the Volga Valley only averted a second starvation there by displacing it to Kuban and Ukraine, which had decent crops.

Usually, when you hear of manmade starvations, you only hear of the third and don't hear all of the story.

DC

HGL, yes, quite familiar with St. John Chrysostrum, we say his liturgy every Sunday.

If your familiar with orthodox thought you would realize that to combat sin you start with yourself, Not others. To many people prefer to destroy the choices of others rather than control their own sinful habits that contribute to sin. Siezing my means of production has never fed your poor, it just simply ended my means to survive. Jailing me in a gulag or Shooting my counter revolutionary ass for pointing out the obvious 100% failure rate of socialist communism is a very large sin against me. I think killing man to " save" a man compounded by millions of men killed who refused your program is a colossal failure and imminently the epitome of demonic sin.

JOL

HGL Please forgive, DC, HG. He is suffering from a bad infection of Communnitis, a mental illness whose primary symptom is that everthing to the left of him is perceived by him as an expression of Marxist-Lenninism.

HGL

DC "to combat sin you start with yourself"

Well, I unintentionally came to possess money gotten from interest. I paid it back to the poor via an intermediary.

However, politics exist. In a Monarchy, those starting with themselves who deal with this kind of thing are basically Monarchs. But in a Republic, it's voters. Which makes it a bit more commonplace to think about it.

"Siezing my means of production has never fed your poor,"

If you didn't get the memo the first time, I'm a Fascist, not a Communist. In 1920 to 1922, bands of Communists went from farm to farm and small factory to small factory (Fiat was safer for some reason) trying to seize the means of Production.

Meanwhile, Blackshirts went from small business owner to small business owner and told him "we'll defend your property, if you give the workers decent wages and decent working hours" ... many small business owners took that.

And when Mussolini became Il Duce (more prosaically Prime Minister in the Kingdom of Italy), the idea of seizing other people's property suddenly was way less popular. But so was the idea of underpaying or overworking employees.

HGL

DC "100% failure rate of socialist communism is a very large sin against me"

I wish the economically Fascist Marxisms of Nordic countries and the economically Distributist Marxism of Tito had failed as well, nearly. Nope. No 1990 to end those Marxisms. In the case of Yugoslavia, it ended but through Nationalist War. In the case of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, still way too Marxist, because the economic model is Fascism and didn't fail.

As a consequence, it was way after 1990 that Norwegian Child Protective Services targetted the Bodnariu family for being too Christian. If I didn't walk in protests before the Norwegian Embassy in Paris, it's because I supported the protests from my blog instead.

But when it came to feeding the population, the failure of Holodomor was worst and as said has parallels outside Communism.

HGL

JOL Did you say "mental illness"?

Matthew 5:22 ...

HGL

JCE "men ready to kill a woman who made decisions they criticized"

He criticised her decision too, "Go and sin no more" ...

As for killing, Judah had already lost sovereignty, which in Genesis 49 couldn't happen before Jesus came. Herod had forfeited the right to execute justice within his confines by that child massacre. It was not a Mosaic execution, but an Anti-Roman lynching (with no new Maccabee rising to match it).

Plus, where was the man she had sinned with?

MC

“to combat sin you start with yourself” No, to combat sin you start with Christ who had destroyed death and the power of sin and death over us.

DC

MC LOL, I mistook my audience to have AREADY be Christian. And having turned to Christ. But, that doesn't mean all are well catichised and well formed Christians. And to circle back, my opening point was that Christ came to defeat the power of the devil by destroying sin and death. Which starts in you not governments be they, kingdoms , nations or empires. Christ was offered the opportunity to allow nations to build an earthly paradise that filled the bellies of men. The master of this world offered it to Him. A world of forced peace and redistribution and even let Jesus be it's human leader. There's more to life than full bellies and forced peace and all that without a Risen Christ. There will be a time when one world will unite under their political messiah who will deliver full bellies and peace. But it's utopianism won't have room for Christ. Socialism has no room for Christ. Marx was speaking plainly, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, uncle Ho Che Minh, Fidel, none have lied, Christ is not welcome in their atheist, man centered humanist paradise where sin and the devil doesn't exist.

Really makes you wonder how the whole "I AM YOUR GOD,WORSHIP ME " demands of the antichrist are going to fit in their political/ economic/ atheistic philosophy of socialism. Power loves power they will adapt easy enough. Sin? No place for that archaic mind set. Death? Isn't that the natural reality of all animals and it's the States obligation to get the most out of the production units labors before he expires. We can soon replace the word state with corporate overlords who will decide if we have enough value to bother feeding. Socialist christians??? After all these millions of deaths, slavery and human suffering from socialist communism. It simply does not compute. It's as silly as atheistic Jews for Communism. There were plenty of Russian jews for Communism, but we all know what their reward was in the great purgings.

And the Christian left who work for socialist entities will no doubt be blessed with the same rewards.

The DNC stated there's no room for Christianity in their platform. It would take a pretty serious "true believer in socialism first/ Christ as means to that end " to stay there , where Christ is obviously not their God. The architect and builder of a Christless

Utopia is the devil. And sin is a word that will not be spoken in his kingdom of LOVE. That hate speech/ judgmental word will not be tolerated. What a paradise the lefty Christians are working hard for. No understanding of sin and there will be no salvation from death. It starts with you, you learn your a sinner, you get saved from death. You in cooperation with the Holy Spirit provide salt and light to a dark decaying world, calling them out a world that is destined to destroy itself when it's master challenges the God / man Christ who puts an end to satan and heals this creations sin rebellion. Sin is problem.

Change men's hearts, not the place where men fill their bellies.

JOL

So please explain, DC, why our Lord bid us to pray daily for bread and further commanded us to break bread with one another in his name?

MC

DC I wasn't talking about people who aren't Christians, or even about Christians who aren't well catechized or whose formation in Christianity might be less than ideal. The comment about starting, always, with Christ in combating sin applies to any and every one, even the those who are committed, devout, well-formed, and well-catechized Christians many years into their life in Christ. It doesn't start with ourselves, and it doesn't ever get to be about ourselves. It is always and forever about what Christ has accomplished in destroying the power of sin and death over us. We always need to be reminded. That's the point of regular worship, regular reception of the Eucharist, regular proclamation, and regular catechesis.

But working on sin, broadly in humanity or in a specific person, also isn't something applicable to government. That's not government's purpose. Working on sin isn't what the quote of Pope Francis is deriving at, or the advocacy of others for a better social, political, and economic system and against the ways unfettered capitalism and market fundamentalism abuses and harms people. We might point to the sin of such abusive and harmful actions, but the role of government is not to remedy sin. Power does indeed have a way of corrupting and bending toward itself. Other systems of government and other variations of socioeconomic structures also abuse and harm people. All of those are worthy of prophetic attention, including the terrible and violent autocratic regimes you use as a foil. That does not mean we simply give it over to evil, or call it evil in itself.

Recognizing that the purpose of the government is not to work on or combat sin, doesn't mean that there is nothing for a Christian, or the Christian community, to say about such matters. It certainly does not mean we leave it alone as a supposed kingdom of the devil. Government and law are not bad things. They are not inherently evil or diabolical, however much there is a tendency of power to corrupt. The purpose of law and government, even while it can often fail in purpose, is for communities to organize and structure themselves so that life in community is possible, and even to allow that community and its members to thrive. Law and government is good and necessary. It is a gift. It supports life. It can also be abused and misused, turned to selfish ends. All too often it is. Yet, it is still good. And we still need to point out where it fails and call our communities and those with power to do better and stop causing harm. Life and human beings are not black/white and unalloyed. It's all complex and nuanced.

Sin is not the only thing Christianity is concerned about, nor is it the only thing that Christians are called to have a concern for. It may be a root of so much from the perspective, which is, of course, why we need Christ and his defeat of the power of sin and death once for all. God, Christ, Christianity, the Christian church, and individual Christians are and are called to be concerned with life and the well-being of neighbor in its own right. That is, this is a concern and call that is parallel to any concern about sin. That concern does directly apply to what governments might do or not do, and how economic and social systems function. Those are, after all, things that directly contribute to life, or hinder it. So it is good and right for Christians to be concerned with how government might better support life, address inequality and problems in a society. It is good and right for us to be concerned with how we treat various people, how we structure our political, social, and economic life together, and so on.

What you might note here, contrary to your assertion, is that there is plenty of concern about sin. It isn't excised from the conversation. How people are harmed is discussed. It's a common theme. It just isn't all theologized into an abstraction or turned into matters of personal peccadilloes. It doesn't call for government to remedy sin, but it points out where sin and harms occur in concrete, everyday ways. And we call us back to that task of supporting life and wellbeing, even when that occurs in what appears to be secular rather than religious language. (I would also suggest that such a split is a false dichotomy.)

From my perspective, it isn't Christians on the "left" that are calling for a utopia. We want a better and more just society, in keeping with our calling to support and protect our neighbors and their wellbeing. We recognize that no one political, social, or economic system will ever be perfect. And we don't reject such matters as unworthy of our attention as Christians. On the other hand, this idea that if we all worked on our sinfulness as fully-formed Christians, while rejecting all that government and law stuff as evil and diabolical, all could be well. That sounds like a utopia to me, not a realistic outlook of the world or our faith and the interaction between the two.

HGL

DC "Utopia is the devil."

The Corporatist Utopia was all over the Western Europe's Cities during the Middle Ages, ending diversely by either Deformation or Revolution (so, between 1534 and 1848).

The Distributist Utopia was villages of Serbia in the Kingdom of Serbia and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, Slovenes.

Was Latin Christendom of the Devil? Was Byzantine Serbia of the Devil?

And who here is defending Pol Pot or Stalin?

HGL

MC "But working on sin, broadly in humanity or in a specific person, also isn't something applicable to government. That's not government's purpose."

However, governments consist of people.

And people are not exempt from descending from Adam and being candidates for redemption by Christ, even when they are in government position.

MC

HGL Yes, governments consist of people. People are bound by sin and given the gift of life and forgiveness in Christ. Government is thus subject to the foibles and gifts of human beings. But the purpose of government is still not that of working on sin.

DC

HGL, Distributism showed up as a word in GK Chestertons works in the early 20th century. Serbia was Slavic and just like Russia bound it's serfs to the lands in de facto slavery till the 1860's. If there was villages practicing Distributism it was on a very small scale and came to an end by the Greatest utopian evil Communism. Chartered Corporations were common means of raising money for grand ventures. The Virginia company and Mayflower compact come to mind. But capitalism and profit are their driving forces. The puritans simply signed up to be the corporations laborers. Nothing utopian about the reasons the investors bought stake in corporations. Coming back to Serbia, utopian Communism produced many Serbian Saints.

DC

JOL, let's return to the temptation of Christ as it's not about bread. It's about who will be king in your life. Bread/ food is a necessity and an appetite created by God for our survival. But it rules our lives like it does the animals. You were called to be higher than the animals and not ruled by your appetites. A foreshadowing event happened in Genesis when a very starving Esau wandered in to Jacob's tent. Esau sold his birthright and future kingship over the tribe to fill his stomach. His words were final and the consequences eternal. His stomach/ appetite caused him to sin and separated him from his rightful place.

40 days of starvation a sinless Christ was tempted to sin against God by turning rocks in to bread. This sin would have destroyed Christ's mission to defeat sin by remaining sinless. His stomach didn't rule Him and cause Him to sell His birth right as the Son of God. Next temptation was to be perched a top of the Pinnacle and show yourself God by defying gravity. It was not in God's plans to show that power yet. So the devil was saying come show off, do your own thing and let us see your power. Surely God will honor your doing things your own way. The rebellion of the demons is they wanted to do things their own way and not in God's timing. Christ said you shall not test the lord by doing things foolishly, your own way assuming there is no consequences.

Thirdly the devil offers Christ a way to achieve satisfaction of all his earthly appetites and kingship of this world to feed all the world. To rule and control the world's peoples. Simply sell his birth right, avoid the cross, get what he wants in fixing all those world problems. Simply transfer His loyalty and worship and make Satan His God and king. Easy easy, full appetites of sinful completion, food, wine, women and song and no cross. No cross! We all will carry our cross, bread will always be scarce, Satan will always be a LIAR and someone will always be demanding earthly governments/kings to be their God's. It's not about bread , it's about lordship over your stomach.

HGL

MC Nevertheless, each person wielding government power is bound to try to be forgiven, bound to obey God.

This means, what God wants for society (for instance no abortion or just wages) is a thing that a person with government powers needs to obey in his life as it relates to governing.

HGL

DC "Distributism showed up as a word in GK Chestertons works in the early 20th century."

And Belloc's. A thing may precede a word.

"Serbia was Slavic and just like Russia bound it's serfs to the lands in de facto slavery till the 1860's."

I would like a source for that. You might be confusing Serbia with Romania.

But supposing it were true. Something replaced serfdom at some point when it was abolished. In Russia Kulaks showed up. Kulaks are distributism, even if the word is different.

"If there was villages practicing Distributism it was on a very small scale"

Very small scale is the EXACT point of Distributism. Can you point to Serbian villages with all farms tied to one single lord in the time between 1860 and 1948? Or to villages where some farmers bought up their neighbours' farms until they had expanded to plantations? If you can't, that means that they practised distributism.

"and came to an end by the Greatest utopian evil Communism."

Not really. Tito broke with Stalin over Stalin being against NEP.

"Chartered Corporations were common means of raising money for grand ventures."

Yes, but was farming in Serbia ever a "grand venture"?

"The Virginia company and Mayflower compact come to mind."

The Mayflower, after trying Communism, settled for Distributism.

Unlike the Virginia Company, they were not a chartered corporation.

"Coming back to Serbia, utopian Communism produced many Serbian Saints."

As I recall, not exactly over Economic policy, but over what was really Marxist in Tito's Yugoslavia: religious and national policy. And education policy. And feminism.

Sweden also has these Marxist things without a Leninist economy, Sweden has a Fascist economy, even if it doesn't like or commonly get referred to by that name (Lyndon LaRouche correctly assessed Olof Palme as a Fascist in economic policy).

HGL

DC Your words to JOL very well assess the duties of the poor as poor.

But it doesn't assess the duties of a king as king, or, in a democracy, of the voter as a voter.

Capitalism creates situations were people's lives are ruled by their stomach. Just as much as Communism. And I don't mean a free market as such, I mean extreme Capitalism.

MC

HGL I don't agree with your statement about a person with government powers (or anyone) needing to obey. First, we aren't bound by God. We are graciously called by God. That's a significant but important difference. We aren't puppets in God's hands. Second, I don't think God has a specific will with respect to what governments should do, or those in government should do with their position. The whole thing presents God as an authoritarian divine dictator. That's not who God is.

HGL

MC "We aren't puppets in God's hands."

Never said so.

Bound to obey means morally bound, not physically or quasi-physically bound.

Governments are free to obey, or to rebel, God to punish them or to reward them.

"I don't think God has a specific will with respect to what governments should do, or those in government should do with their position."

I get the opposite impression from "quare fremunt gentes" ... sorry, fremuerunt and it's Psalm 2.

There are government actions that God approves, there are government actions that He disapproves. The Psalmist is speaking up against the latter in the case of Gentile governments.

"The whole thing presents God as an authoritarian divine dictator. That's not who God is."

Mussolini tells a company they will be fined if they don't pay workers decently, I think God approved, you think He didn't?

Four Corners Doesn't Mean Flat Earth

CREATION

Pete F. Fiske

Admin, Star contributor

@everyone: we would appreciate feedback on this: THERE ARE NO FLAT EARTH BIBLE VERSES WHATSOEVER!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The ALLEGED "flat earth" verses fall into three categories.

1) "Circle of the earth" the Greek translation has "guros" = "circumference" and a globe has that too.

2) four corners = are those of the continents (NW corner in Alaska, NE corner in Siberia, SE corner in SE Australia, like Sydney or Hobart, SW corner on Cape Horn)

3) tree in Nebuchadnezzar's dream and Jesus saw all the kingdoms, the one is a dream, not a physical vision at all, the other, I'd say Satan provided "tele-vision" before TV sets were a thing.

He made sure light beams from the capital of China, back then Luoyang, were transmitted by the abilities of angels, and therefore retranslated into light beams on that big mountain where he and Jesus were standing. It doesn't mean Jesus could have seen the streets of Luoyang with a really good binocular pointed that way. And same for Rome, obviously. Or the Maya site San Bartolo.

For category 3, I had to look up what it was on an old post of mine from 2019, in French : Est-ce que la Bible dit que la Terre est plate?

For category 2, I did an update on factchecking how much exactly falls "within the four corners" of inhabited land. Basically, the biggest part outside it is New Zealand. In order not to have East Coast of Australia or Murmansk outside it, I accept some bending of the outer lines between the four corners.

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: One Comment, a Bit Prematurely Under a Long Video · New blog on the kid: Where Are the Four Corners on a Globe? · But What About the West and East Lines?

Update

CREATION

Pete F. Fiske

Admin, Star contributor

@everyone: "Take no part in the ...works of darkness (Satan's #FlatEarthLie), but instead expose them."
~ Ephesians 5:11 ESV

Hans-Georg Lundahl

A few Church Fathers or Ecclesiastic writers were in fact flat earth, Lactantius, for instance, I think.

This being so, flat earth as such is arguably not a heresy per se.

However, the contemporary Flat Earth map has more like three than four corners of the continents, so, unlike Lactantius, actually contradicts Apocalypse 7:1.

Literal on Both Since Childhood

For those who know I became a Catholic only in 1988, at a few months short of twenty, I had believed in the Real Presence since I was a newly Baptised Lutheran and before that a not-yet-baptised basically Evangelical.

I've never been a Calvinist or Zwinglian./HGL

Israeli Police or Religious Liberty?

Middle East Eye, 19 April 2025
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1064263595630400

On Holy Saturday, Israeli police imposed heightened restrictions on Palestinian Christians, blocking their access to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. While large sections of the courtyard remained empty, worshippers were confined to narrow alleyways.

Police presence dominated the area and disrupted traditional rituals performed by the worshipers.

About Catholic Clergy

CD

I

GK

No house visits unless your family has money to possible donate to church on demise.

CD

GK ...not a true priest in a true Catholic Church

MÓF

GK we were brought Holy Communion by an SSPX priest two weeks ago. There was no altar boy but we all knelt and there was a small altar with candle in the house. Nothing at all was said about donations.

NP

GK this was before your time and in a place and culture you would never understand because you've never been exposed, and obviously had nothing to do with whatever "Christian"assembly you frequent.

HGL

GK, Even from a Novus Ordo, doing those house visits are part of what he's payed for.

That's one clear part of what he's doing if not every week (though possibly that) at least every month when not hearing confession in Church or celebrating Mass.

That's one reason why he is not obliged to say all the hours in Choir, he's still obliged to say them, but he can do so on the walk to shopping or (in some countries) bus or tram to a house visit.

II

NP

"This is what is now lost to modern Catholics"

And in Quebec, the Faith is so diluted and childish that the province is even more left woke than the rest of Canada. They now think that speaking French is what constitutes the distinct society clause of the BNA, when in fact it was their Catholicity as a French colony (which was/is ruled under the Napoleonic Code) that did so. And this recognition was necessary in order to not politically force the French to commit apostasy by being, as a Canadian, under the rule of the English monarchy, which is also the head of the Anglican communion.

III

MD

I spent 13 times in the Memorial Hospital in Jasper twice for double pneumonia given last rights they came around every Sunday asking if you wanted to receive Christ always did. One Sunday the priest and nun entered the room the man across from me just died he was on his stomach he defecated, and the smell was pretty bad I was a little kid I'll never forget that poor man