samedi 26 février 2011

Terre plate dans l'Évangile? Que nenni!

par Hans-Georg Lundahl, samedi 26 février 2011, 13:24

C'est exprimé un musulman buccailliste ainsi:

Ceci se produit durant la tentation de Jésus par Satan, le verset dit que Satan a pris Jésus jusqu'à une très haute montagne et lui montra tous les royaumes de la terre. Cette mentalité montre que l'auteur a cru que la terre était plate, parce que l'auteur a cru qu'en allant très haut sur terre, telle qu'une montagne, vous pouvez voir tous les royaumes de la terre, et vous verrez toute la terre ! Nous savons tous que ce n'est pas possible, ni vrai, même un vaisseau spatial qui va dans l'espace,même au-dessus de la terre ne sont pas en mesure d'afficher toute la planète à la fois! Alors comment voir toute la planète depuis une montagne?

L'auteur présume que la terre était plate, un carré, qui est la seule façon dont on pourrait effectivement aller à un point très élevée et afficher toute la surface du sol, possible que si toute la surface est plate!


Où ça? ICI (cliquer)*

Magnifique.

D'abord: qui est ce qui montre ça à Notre Seigneur Jésus-Christ? Satan. Est-il connu pour montrer les choses telles qu'elles sont? Non. Dans le jardin d'Eden il n'a pas dit la vérité à Ève, sur cette montagne - réel ou son illusion, n'importe! - il ne montre pas la vérité. Il montre un modèle, il montre dans une forme proche de la télévision, mais par pouvoir spirituel, il ne montre pas par les seuls moyens optiques. L'objet de Satan n'était pas d'induire notre Seigneur dans une erreur sur la forme de la terre mais dans une erreur sur le pouvoir. Et là encore Notre Seigneur n'a pas été trompé.**

Ensuite: pour les Catholiques comme pour les Orthodoxes, les Pères de l'Église sont l'interprétation obligatoire de l'Évangile comme de la Torah, comme des psaumes, commes des écrits que les Musulmans ignorent même. Or, des Pères de l'Église ont accepté bien avant la naissance de Mahomet que la terre est une globe. St Basile le grand dans son Exaëméron se trouve devant le problème: puisque la terre est ronde et le soleil ne peut être aux deux côtés de la terre au même temps, comment doit-on interpréter les soirs et les matins des jours de la création? Il répond - sa réponse a sa valeur à partir du quatrième jour que Dieu créa le Soleil au moins - que les jours et nuits sont des jours et des nuits au-dessus du Paradis Terrestre ou peut-être au-dessus de Jérusalem et Bethléem. Il y avait donc quelque part une limite entre les dates - le soleil continue et pour lui c'est toujours le même jour mais sur terre tel midi là est le soir d'un jour aux Hébrides (je prends juste un exemple, je ne suis pas en train de lire Exaëméron, mais l'explication est celle-ci, car il a été resumé par St Thomas dans la Somme Théologique) et un peux plus loins c'est le matin du jour suivant en Chine. Il vivait au quatrième siècle après Notre Seigneur, donc trois siècles avant Mahomet. Et trois siècles encore avant Notre Seigneur Érathosthène avait déjà calculé de l'angle entre le midi à Caire et Assouan la taille environnente de l'Équateur.

Non, si le Quran affirme la rondeur de la terre, c'est bien, mais ni un miracle, ni un devant par rapport à la Bible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Mouffetard/Paris V
26-II-2011

*En plus le Musulman a cité un chapître autre que le vrai. C'est Matthieu 4:8-9 qu'il cite. Pas le chapître 3.

**Voir le verset dix. Quand aux implications terre-plattistes, je cite encore le commentaire de Douay-Rheims Bible Online pour le verset:

"shewed him"... That is, pointed out to him where each kingdom lay; and set forth in words what was most glorious and admirable in each of them. Or also set before his eyes, as it were in a large map, a lively representation of all those kingdoms.


Un article en réfutation de Buccaille cite aussi que celui-ci aurait dit que Mahomet serait conscient que la lune reflète la lumière du soleil - mais ceci ne semble en rien une découverte moderne. Les réflections (oui, ha ha) sur la rélation entre pouvoirs impérial et papal montre cette conscience bien en chrétienneté du moyen age, pas des lecteurs avides du Quran du tout. C'est bien évident si on regarde les phases de la lune, je crois que c'était connu déjà par Aristote. Et ce n'est pas nié dans la Bible. Item pour le cycle des eaux.

"l'explication est celle-ci, car il a été resumé par St Thomas dans la Somme Théologique" - je viens de regarder Q 70 en ligne en espagnol. Suis-je juste trop fatigué, est-ce une autre question, ou est-ce qu'il s'agit des notes en bas de page? Je ne la trouve pas.

Je l'ai trouvé.

St Augustin d'Hippone De Genesi ad Litteram livre I chapîtres X § 20 - XII § 25 aborde le problème si la lumière créée au début ait fait la rotation autour de la terre comme aujourd'hui le soleil, et aussi où il faisait jour et nuit les temps si appelés par l'auteur de la Genèse. Il se refère à un "on a proposé" que la note du rédacteur identifie à St Basile de Césarée, In Hexaméron VI, 2, "lu par Augustin dans la traduction d'Eusthatius".

Desclée de Brouwer, 1972, Bibl. Augustinienne, Œvres de St Augustin, 48, septième série:

La Genèse au Sens Litéral en Douze Livres, (I - VII), pp. 106/107 - 114/115 (doubles pages, latin français) ET les pages 588 - 590.

jeudi 24 février 2011

Pie XII aurait arreté les tuéries de Juifs s'il avait parlé?

Quelle sornette!

St Pie X n'a pas pu arreter les tuéries de Catholiques en France - un pays au temps de Clémenceau moins sécularisé et moins Protestant que l'Allemagne de l'époque d'Hitler. Pas très vite.

Le clergé français a suffi pour que Maréchal Pétain arrête de déporter les Juifs volontairement. Après Vel d'Hiv, il était prisonnier, il s'en est plaint en 1944 à Paris.

HGL

samedi 5 février 2011

Odinn - Åsa Haraldsdottir of Agder - St Olaf, Rex Perpetuus Norvegiae

par Hans-Georg Lundahl, samedi 5 février 2011, 20:37

Odinn was the far off ancestor of Åsa Haraldsdottir of Agder whose son was grandfather of Harald Hairfair, first King of Norway, from whom descends Olaf Digre, whose relics and other intercession (several times for a sinful and reckless brother) proved him a saint. Another saint, a bishop, decreed that from then on Kings of Norway should not rule in their own name, but as vassals of Saint Olaf, Rex Perpetuus Norvegiae.

Perpetual King of Norway, that is.

Dear saint Olaf, pray for our lands, pray for those who labour under the burden of sinful ancestors, and for conversions of such who refuse to give up false religions founded by such, whether Odinn or Mohammed!

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Bibliothèque publique d'Information
5 - II - 2011

Dear Saint Agatha, thank you for that day thirteen years ago!

Debating Richard Aleman and two others on food line ups for the poor

Richard Aleman:
Next article for Gilbert Magazine: The Banishment of Agapē

Los Angeles City Councilwoman Jan Perry: “Feeding people on the street is not hygienic, it's not sanitary, it's not good for their health.”
Starving isn't good for their health, Ms. Perry.


Have you considered one possibility: one can feed them/us otherwise than "on the street"?

BD:
No, but you see, if they starve, they go away and people like Ms Perry don't have to look at them


Richard Aleman:
Hans, organizations do offer indoor food sharing but it does not reach many urban poor who are often in other parts of the city. Outreach programs help access the poor and also establish rapport with them. This is a tool local governments could use to decrease homelessness and poverty. Working with these groups has been beneficial in places like Fort Myers, where gov't works with local food banks (instead of working against them).
That's exactly right, Brian.


France is like Fort Myers. It has its ups, it has its downs.

AA:
Since when is street food too dangerous for the public? It's okay for a man to sell hotdogs out of a cart, shouldn't a soup line be okay?


Richard Aleman:
I'm wrapping up my article - but briefly, I've researched restrictions popping up all over the U.S.A. Miami, Orlando, Denver, Cleveland, Atlanta, Myrtle Beach, Vegas, Nashville, and many others.


In Winter, Soupe de St Eustache is usually an option for good food. Even so, once I saw a fist-fight, once I got insulted by a Slav I did not know. Several times I see drunk men and each time a lot of waste plastic is not being thrown away in bins by us ourselves.

AA, hotdog sellers usually do not deal with 400 people during 1 h, and most of their customers do not know each other, do not fight each other, are not drunk when trying to buy a hot dog, or if so, at least have style for being drunk.

Richard Aleman:
Hans, I read complaints about trash. The solution: the city could provide more trash bins.


No, no, no.

The "customers" may have ten trash bins before them, some won't use them.

BD:
Or just have an incentive program for each bowl, whatever you turn in you get $0.10 or something. That will get picked up quick.


It is for some a question of fatigue, for others a question of drunkenness ... and not all will even get to the 10 c either. Besides if in plastic that would be just another expense of it all.

I use trash bins, but only about nine times out of ten. And i am one of the sober ones.

AA:
I was surprised to find out that a county down the coast also has made it illegal to 'panhandle'. Their ordinance does say that standing/sitting still and holding a sign doesn't count, but they still crackdown on people for it. We get calls as well, which the deputies normally handle by checking warrants, cautioning them about getting in dangerous traffic, and offering a ride to our Rescue Mission.

Hans-Georg - we've got different expectations here about hospitality and the poor. There are reasons that people fight. Customers 'have style'? I've done charity, and I've done food service - paying customers definitely aren't 'better people' - some of the worst I've met were ordering and paying.


Sitting/standing still with sign doesn't count? God Bless them for that law! Better than France!

Here that is two months prison (in theory) "agressive" - with dog or walking after - three months.

And when two people start pushing each other on that trottoir - sidewalk - some passers by are shoved as well.

Some paying customers may stink, but in a hotdog business there are often not five of them at eight o clock each evening.

"stink" as far as behaviour is concerned, I am not talking about smell.


AA:
Never been to an American city, eh? ;-)


Not since age nine.

My favourite hospitality is the one given me by a particular.

BD:
if begging gets you 2-3 months in prison, why can't France deal with the Gypsies? On top of what ever punishments lying and conning and stealing get you.


BD, notice the "in theory". Application is sporadic. Police and guards prefer just telling you to go.

Still - AA: I would be surprised if 5 people at eight o'clock returned evening after evening and behaved badly. At three o' clock weekend mornings, that is another matter.

Or even eleven o'clock, some evenings.

I repeat: my favourite charity is the one given by particulars.

And of course, the punishments for begging, and the punishments for ordering others to beg, DO increase the lies and cons. Selling homeless papers over price, collecting for a center for the handicapped ... two cons gipsies do here in Paris.

‎"organizations do offer indoor food sharing but it does not reach many urban poor who are often in other parts of the city."

Same goes for food distributions

BD:
Yep, they are vile. And the stupid American tourists think they are for real and support their lifestyle. Which only makes sure they will teach the immoral way of life to their kids.


AA:
Hans-Georg - I managed an upscale espresso bar for a few years in a major American city. We had dozens of the most obnoxious people I've ever met who returned multiple times a day to demand, berate, belittle, scream, whine, throw tantrums and threaten. Baby wants candy, and they want it now.

I grew up in a ministry family as well (who worked in the US, Senegal, Nigeria, Togo, Benin, France, Switzerland, Belgium, Cameroun, UK, and else.) Our experience is that most of the poor are quite grateful for help *if* they are treated with dignity. Yes, we ran across some 'stinkers' - but that sort of behavior often comes from previous trauma, substance abuse, or even demonic oppression. If the men are fighting on the street because they are homeless, hungry, and drunk - odds are that the *drunk* part is related to the violence, and not the other two conditions. There are 'helps' for all of those conditions as well - and we should have those resources available to those who have abuse, trauma, mental/emotional illness, or spiritual oppression. And, of course, we have Christ's commands to us regardless of the condition of the fields, or what we think of the work.


@ BD: Vile? No.

I do give money when gipsies beg honestly, when I have some coins left I have no use for.

@ AA: "dozens of the most obnoxious people I've ever met who returned multiple times a day to demand, berate, belittle, scream, whine, throw tantrums and threaten"

- you have seen them, then, each time. The other customers have not. Except that one time.

In a food queue the stinkers turn up at same time.

"Our experience is that most of the poor are quite grateful for help *if* they are treated with dignity."

Yes. MOST. And one question of dignity with me is trying to avoid those other few as often as possible.

"Yes, we ran across some 'stinkers' - but that sort of behavior often comes from previous trauma, substance abuse, or even demonic oppression."

No doubt. But the explanations do not make their company pleasant for the other ones who eat while getting ulcers from listening.

‎"There are 'helps' for all of those conditions as well - and we should have those resources available to those who have abuse, trauma, mental/emotional illness, or spiritual oppression."

Even if not wanted?

That will get the distribution feared and avoided by some.

‎"And, of course, we have Christ's commands to us regardless of the condition of the fields, or what we think of the work."

The command is to feed the poor. Not necessarily to do so on the street at a fixed hour.

Indeed, that may have been part of Pharisaic hypocrisy.

AA:
Yes, the other customers do that in front of, and to each other. Sometimes the police have to be called. Nothing like watching two wealthy women fight over a 'rice krispy treat'. I suppose it changes one's views. (Though, I was always taught 'poor folks have poor ways, and rich folks damn mean ones' - so I was never surprised.)

As for mental illness on the street - I cannot speak for your jurisdiction, but that used to not be the case here in the USA. As part of the cultural shift of the 60s-70s along with the Sexual Revolution there also came the dismantling of the traditional helps for those who were disturbed. That was seen as 'limiting their rights', however, and the solution was that the mentally ill (and demonic possessed) were simply dumped on our streets. I don't know if France came to it the same way, or if it goes further back to the Revolution. But here - that is part of the larger problem. However, especially in our present economy, the great bulk of the homeless are *not* dealing with anything more than the trauma of loosing their livelihood and property, being sick, and the stresses related to keeping themselves and their families together.


But a line up is not a question of how the majority behave or how the mean behaviour is: it is a question of how the worst behave.

And how about not just testing the food next time, by eating same before or after, but taking turns eating during the line up to feel what it is like to eat when that happens. Not one evening, when you may be lucky, but evenings of one week on a row.

Mornings, the personnel of one breakfast do eat with us. But that is one breakfast a week. And breakfasts are always (or nearly so) better than evening line ups.

And it is not a question of understanding either. There are conditions of fatigue and hunger under which one man may understand oh so well what is going on with the other one, but will still not be anything but traumatised BY THAT BEHAVIOUR, and UNDER THAT LINE UP.

I did actually walk away from a sermon held by a priest who took the feeding of the four thousand or the five thousand as an example of how to give alms. Because obviously it was not. Christ did not make these people come there to feed them, they came to hear. And he fed them while they were together, because they were together anyway.

I do consider the bishop of Paris a heretic in moral theology even for the fact of - at least back then - preaching not to give directly to poor but only or foremost to organisms.

It was one at Église St Laurent, a lady at reception, who told me that.